Bill Bax GK13 Breakout box - anyone see this?

Started by aliensporebomb, September 29, 2009, 07:19:29 AM

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Gastric

#25
Currently you need a breakout box like the RMC fanout box. http://www.rmcpickup.com/fanoutbox.html

This is due to the requirement of the divided pickup which is really 6 little individual pickups packaged as one. It works like Gumtown described.  You record each output of the divided pickup to it's own track in your recording software, another track for your normal pickup output. Then to reamp you feed those tracks back into the GR-55 via the breakout box, down a 13 pin cable into the GR-55.

So it's no different than how you're reamping with the GT-10 except you need a special breakout box to manage the divided pickup signals.

edy 73

#26
 i will try GUMTOWN  ...tomorrow because i working today !!! but its very intersting,and i have guitar rig 4 to...but i want everythings from gr-55 !!! and "GASTRIC" you funoutbox .... i sow that first time today from you that box ! thanks really "guys" !!
I´L BE BACK ,-)

edy 73

#27
just like this :-):




Gastric

#28
I saw those but they're not that much less expensive than the much more robust RMC breakout box, which needs no insert cables to be used. 

On the plus side, the video of the DIY kit makes it look fairly easy to breadboard one and stick it in whatever chassis using whatever jacks you want. It's a bunch of jacks and a few resistors/capacitors. I'm assuming it always requires you to plug into the GR-55 (or whatever) for power. But seems really simple. Needs an extra jack for the normal pickup and it seems perfect for reamping.

edy 73

#29
The last option:
"Feed the analog mono audio from the computer to the GK pickup "Guitar input" and process the audio though the COSM effects and amp sims.. (use the Normal Pickup source only)"(gumtown)

YEEEEEEEES "GUMTOWN" !!!! that's it ...that it my solution ! i did it last month but i forget it NORMAL pickup to activate :-(( ! and now work it fantastic !
"guys" ....thank you soooo much for you help,and inspiration, and now i can sell my gt-10  !I'm so happy today ,:-) and tomorrow i play with my band "live" and..of course  ....with gr-55!!!:-) thanks everyone !!!!
I´L BE BACK :-)

ddlooping

#30
Quote from: edy 73 on April 12, 2011, 01:27:39 AM
... tomorrow i play with my band "live" and..

Have fun. ;)

Quote from: edy 73 on April 12, 2011, 01:27:39 AM
I´L BE BACK :-)

We hope so. :)
Diaz Guitars (work in progress)

billbax

#31
Hello Re-Ampers,

First of all, thank you to edy 73 for posting my Youtube movie on this topic.  That movie was authored in August 2009, and was my first commercially available MK4 Breakout Box. It was just a simple and basic unit, that enabled you to record and play separate strings at the same time.  The humble asking price back then was £130.00GB.  The optional cables were an additional £70.00GB.  That was a total of £200.00GB for a full recording separate strings kit.

Gastric response to edy 73 "
I saw those but they're not that much less expensive than the much more robust RMC breakout box, which needs no insert cables to be used".

All Fanout Boxes/Breakout Boxes require a Y-Cable set to connect to a DAW or multi-track.  A quality cable set can easily be made up for about £30.00GB +6 hours labour.  You will definitely need a cable set for inserts, to do re-amping, hands-free patch changing...Just like in the movie. There is no magic way around this, as 'Strings Out' and 'Strings In' access is definitely required. 

Regarding the price of the currently unavailable RMC Fanout Box. It works out to be $395.00 or £250.00GB, plus the needed and already mentioned cable set.  With shipping you will easily be spending somewhere in the region of £300.00GB Plus+, and that's a minimum to get the interface working with your V-Guitar setup.  The final nail in the coffin for the RMC Fanout Box, is its availability.  RMC appear to have discontinued selling their Fanout Box unit for about 3 years.  Yes I know we've all heard rumours of a new design coming out, but I'd be very surprised to see a new unit from RMC. Lets hope RMC follow through, and we get no more 'the cheque is in the post' BS.

BREAKOUT BOX MK7+





My latest MK7+ Standard Breakout Box is 3/5 of a Roland GKP4.  You can control 2 V-Synths at the same time, and ofcourse record and play separate strings.  The latest MK7+ version sports a pin 7 mono guitar output from your GK3 pickup, and goes some way towards a correct impendance-match with a mic input.  So now you can now record 6 separate strings from your GK, and record your mono guitar pickup at the same time.  You might say, it's a total guitar performance capture in one shot.



THE LATEST BREAKOUT BOX STANDARD MOVIE 2011



HI-END CUSTOM CABLE SET



The hi-end Y cable set really is something very special.  Offering dual screens for maximum EMI suppression, and the OFC audio cores provide vanishingly low signal resistance @  0.04ohms. Cable length "22 inches.  Each of the jacks are clearly labeled behind transparent heatshrink, so there is no confusion about connections.


STANDARD BREAKOUT BOX KIT PRICE

Standard Breakout Box is £160.00GB.  Custom cable set £70.00GB. Free UK shipping.  USA & Europe trackable shipping can be as little as £15.00GB. A complete V-Guitar Breakout Box and cables kit will cost you no more than £245.00GB (with trackable shipping). Customers outside of the US and Europe may incur additional shipping costs.

CUSTOMER SUPPORT

My number one aim when selling a Breakout Box, is to provide a 100% solution with the techniques of recording separate strings. I always throughly check customer requirements and make sure they are going to get the 'full experience'.  My free-of-charge Roland GK3 +10dB modification is sometimes an option, for those Breakout Box owner's experiencing input level problems.  Also some users have experienced power supply noise problems from their Axon GK100 units.  This can be easily solved with a separate power supply to the Breakout Box, often with little or no additional costs.  If there's a problem, there is always a solution.  It's all part of my service.

I need a drink...

Regards,

Bill
www.separate-strings.co.uk

ddlooping

#32
It looks like a great product, billbax, congrats. :)
Diaz Guitars (work in progress)

Frank

#33
Hi Bill, does it, or can you make it output at -10 or +4 so that I can use it without 6 DI boxes?

Thanks.
Quote from:  billbax on April 23, 2011, 09:24:27 PM
Hello Re-Ampers,

First of all, thank you to edy 73 for posting my Youtube movie on this topic.  That movie was authored in August 2009, and was my first commercially available MK4 Breakout Box. It was just a simple and basic unit, that enabled you to record and play separate strings at the same time.  The humble asking price back then was £130.00GB.  The optional cables were an additional £70.00GB.  That was a total of £200.00GB for a full recording separate strings kit.

Gastric response to edy 73 "
I saw those but they're not that much less expensive than the much more robust RMC breakout box, which needs no insert cables to be used".

All Fanout Boxes/Breakout Boxes require a Y-Cable set to connect to a DAW or multi-track.  A quality cable set can easily be made up for about £30.00GB +6 hours labour.  You will definitely need a cable set for inserts, to do re-amping, hands-free patch changing...Just like in the movie. There is no magic way around this, as 'Strings Out' and 'Strings In' access is definitely required. 

Regarding the price of the currently unavailable RMC Fanout Box. It works out to be $395.00 or £250.00GB, plus the needed and already mentioned cable set.  With shipping you will easily be spending somewhere in the region of £300.00GB Plus+, and that's a minimum to get the interface working with your V-Guitar setup.  The final nail in the coffin for the RMC Fanout Box, is its availability.  RMC appear to have discontinued selling their Fanout Box unit for about 3 years.  Yes I know we've all heard rumours of a new design coming out, but I'd be very surprised to see a new unit from RMC. Lets hope RMC follow through, and we get no more 'the cheque is in the post' BS.

BREAKOUT BOX MK7+





My latest MK7+ Standard Breakout Box is 3/5 of a Roland GKP4.  You can control 2 V-Synths at the same time, and ofcourse record and play separate strings.  The latest MK7+ version sports a pin 7 mono guitar output from your GK3 pickup, and goes some way towards a correct impendance-match with a mic input.  So now you can now record 6 separate strings from your GK, and record your mono guitar pickup at the same time.  You might say, it's a total guitar performance capture in one shot.



THE LATEST BREAKOUT BOX STANDARD MOVIE 2011



HI-END CUSTOM CABLE SET



The hi-end Y cable set really is something very special.  Offering dual screens for maximum EMI suppression, and the OFC audio cores provide vanishingly low signal resistance @  0.04ohms. Cable length "22 inches.  Each of the jacks are clearly labeled behind transparent heatshrink, so there is no confusion about connections.


STANDARD BREAKOUT BOX KIT PRICE

Standard Breakout Box is £160.00GB.  Custom cable set £70.00GB. Free UK shipping.  USA & Europe trackable shipping can be as little as £15.00GB. A complete V-Guitar Breakout Box and cables kit will cost you no more than £245.00GB (with trackable shipping). Customers outside of the US and Europe may incur additional shipping costs.

CUSTOMER SUPPORT

My number one aim when selling a Breakout Box, is to provide a 100% solution with the techniques of recording separate strings. I always throughly check customer requirements and make sure they are going to get the 'full experience'.  My free-of-charge Roland GK3 +10dB modification is sometimes an option, for those Breakout Box owner's experiencing input level problems.  Also some users have experienced power supply noise problems from their Axon GK100 units.  This can be easily solved with a separate power supply to the Breakout Box, often with little or no additional costs.  If there's a problem, there is always a solution.  It's all part of my service.

I need a drink...

Regards,

Bill
http://billbax.110mb.com

billbax

#34
Hi Frank,

There is a new design that's only a couple weeks away.  You won't need to use a DI box or any additional preamps, as the outputs will be line-matched.  It's basically an active Breakout Box and 3/5 of a GKP4 in one.  The new design boasts some pretty impressive specifications.

Dynamic Range or signal-to-noise ratio -100dBm.

Separate String Output levels - +2dBm.

Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) - 0.00487% @ 0dBm 1k sine output.


The reason for the new design, is some recording separate string users experience low output levels.  If you are an existing Breakout Box owner, I offer a modification to a GK3. The free service is quick and painless.  Basically I send you a modified GK3 and you send me your GK3 in return...simple.

ROLAND GK3 +10dB OF GAIN MOD


The modification increases the GK3 output level by 10dB, which is more than enough for a line input.



CHANGE 6 RESISTORS FROM 10K TO 33K AND GAIN +10dB. YOU'LL ALSO INCREASE YOUR SIGNAL TO NOISE
BY 7dB!

TOP E AND STRING B OUTPUT GAIN MOD (Microscope photo)



A few of my Breakout Box owners, who use a GK internal may also experience output levels problems. Everyones setup is different. I recently visited a customer here in London who was using an RMC internal Hex pickup with my Breakout Box.  The separate string outputs were about -5dB, which I thought was quite acceptable.  It really depends on the input gain of your soundcard or multitrack, and which Hex pickup system you are using.  It's all about providing me with the full knowledge of a setup, and then prescribing either a passive Breakout Box (and possible GK3 mod), or the new active Breakout Box.

Finally, I must stress that a modified GK Hex preamp offers a better audio solution to using an active breakout box.  Any audiophile knows it's bad audio preamping an input twice.  Saying that, the new battery powered Breakout Box sounds truly excellent. I will be posting details of the new Breakout Box over the next few weeks.  Hope this answers your questions.

regards,

Bill
www.separate-strings.co.uk

drjoness2001

#35
It appears that most of the problems people are having with the GR-55 are related to sensitivity levels.

The GR-55 works best with lower input levels.

Based on this, it would seem that adding more gain in the GK-3, as with your suggested modification.  will result in poorer performance from the GR-55/VG-99. Wouldn't it be better to add the gain elsewhere? I know that one wants to avoid unnecessary signal processing, but do we want to compromise our Roland synth performance?

Have you tried adding another gain stage at a later point, and comparing the recording quality trade-offs?

billbax

#36
Hi drjoness2001,

Frank asks about my breakout box output compatibility levels "does it, or can you make it output at -10 or +4 so that I can use it without 6 DI boxes?".  And you've suggested there could be a problem modifying a GK3 pickup, for a gain of 10dB using a GR-55.

As I explained in my last message, there are three methods of getting around a possible output gain problem, when recording separate strings with a passive Breakout Box.

Set out below is a simple research into the input sensitivity properties of a Roland V-Guitar synth.  In this case it's the Roland VG-88.  I would bet my left foot, the GK input buffering circuit on a VG-99 and GR-55 are near identical to a VG-88.  If they were not, then there would be GK3 compatibility issues aplenty. I can't imagine Roland's V-Synth design engineers would want to take any risks, by dramatically changing a GR-55/VG-99 analog input buffer circuit.

GK3 WITHOUT +10dB MODIFICATION


GK3 WITH + 10dB MODIFICATION


V-SYNTH MAXIMUM INPUT LEVEL +6dBm INDICATOR
(Actual 3% THD audio clipping occurs 6dB after the last bargraph segment)


Finally, as you say some people are experiencing input sensitivity issues with a GR-55. I seriously don't think a safe gain of 10dB is going to make a huge difference. As I've demonstrated in the images, it's only a question of turning the sensitivity down from 65 to 27.  Afterall a Roland V-Synth can take an input of +6dBm without clipping. I have performed the GK3 modification on four customer GK3 pickups so far. With each of the mods, the customer was using a VG-99.  Touch wood, not one has complained of input sensitivity issues.

Thanks,

Bill
www.separate-strings.co.uk

P.S.  Did you know...Roland GK3's pickup sensor case shielding isn't connected to signal ground. Grounding the case adds 1-2dB of EMI rejection!

gumtown

#37
The GK sensitivity setting for my setup are 30 - 18 - 15 - 18 - 11 - 9
With an extra 10dB gain, i don't think my settings would end up with-in the range of adjustment.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Elantric

#38
QuoteVG-99 and GR-55 are near identical to a VG-88.

In truth, they are completely different. 

The old VG-8 and VG -88 had a much different input stage than the recent VG-99 and GR-55.

In the newer units, Roland removed the analog input bandpass filtering circuit, to lower costs. (see attached)
(see VG-99 input circuit here: https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=28.0;attach=965 )

As a result, the full bandwidth piezo pickup users suffer ghost notes and poor performance with the Stock VG-99 and GR-55.

It's such a problem that RMC pickups has created a line of subharmonic rumble filters specific to the VG-99, VB-99 and GR-55 for internal installation.

Adding any gain to the hex signal before it hits the VG-99 or GK-55 GK input will create a loss of picking dynamic range, and present more adjacent string crosstalk - which severely negatively impacts Guitar to MIDI and DSP Alt Tunings

Use search here at the forum to learn more about
RMC's line of GK input sub filters
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=177.0



and RMC's suggested string sensitivity settings for RMC Piezo users with the GR-55.

( hint he says set all strings at Zero GK String sensitivity!)

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3912.msg26522#msg26522

billbax

#39
Hi Elantric,

Good post.  I have a few customers getting back to me with their sensitivity settings, concerning the +10dB mods carried out.  As I said in my last post, not one of them complained about the 10dB output gain.  Anything but.

Shame about that pdf VG99 service manual you posted.  Impossible to read any of the critical component values. I guess that would have settled it in our GK3 output and VG99/GR55 discussion.

Enjoyed your insightful posts here at the vguitar forum btw.  Also thanks to gumtown for posting his sensitivity settings.  I take it your using a GK3?

regards,

Bill
www.separate-strings.co.uk

http://www.youtube.com/user/BaxBreakoutBox

drjoness2001

#40
Well, at the risk of challenging an authority, I think I might have to take acception to your remark:

"In the newer units, Roland removed the analog input bandpass filtering circuit, to lower costs. "

My first question is, how do you know this? I think this is assumed information on the forum, but I have noticed that remarks like this get floated around like a verified fact, when the source seems to be more opinion than verifiable information. I know this seems like a stupid question, but did someone at Roland tell you this? Or, were you in a Roland budget meeting? It seems some folks on this forum are very well connected, so I would not be surprised if you did consult with Roland. I just don't know, I'm do not want to sound rude or impolite.

I did a post earlier where I noted that a very plausible reason for Roland removing the analog input filter had nothing to do with costs, rather it has to do with make the GR-55 compatible with both bass and guitar controllers. If you install a RMC filter board, the GR-55 should no longer work properly with a bass guitar input. The RMC board should enhance piezo guitar operation at the cost of crippling bass guitar operation.

My understanding of Richard's calculations for the filter cutoff indicate that while in addition to removing piezo rumble, the aftermarket filter will also filter output low frequencies fundamental to the bass guitar.

For the VG-99, Richard noted that frequencies of 50 Hz and below (for the low E string) would be reduced by -3 db. The fundamental frequency of a low E on the bass guitar should be around 41 Hz. Butterworth filters have a very steep cutoff.

Based on my own personal experience of owning both a VG-99, and VB-99, they are the same hardware. So the input stage to the VG-99 and VB-99 could be the same. This would explain why the VG-99 has an input stage compatible with bass guitar frequencies. The guitar synth market is very small, the bass guitar synth market is even smaller, so it makes sense Roland would keep the hardware the same when building the bass version.

This is my own speculation, I look forward to hearing from someone with first hand knowledge of Roland's intentions.

gumtown

#41
I might add some more speculation, in thinking that any analog hardware filtering must have been removed after the GR-30/33 times, since the GR-20 is also Bass compatable, and the filtering would actually be done after the A/D conversion in the digital domain (or could be/should be done there).
From what i see of the "Roland way of thinking", analog is out, and anything that can be done by digital/software will be so, to reduce the analog component count, which is why you will never see a tube ever used in a Roland effect processor.
The only analog components these days are the circuitry immediately connected to the back panel jack sockets.

Quite possibly a better breakout solution would be if Roland could have fitted digital I/O ports for the hex signals after A/D conversion, with a composite digital Output/input signal similar to digital 5.1 fibre for a computer connection to recording software.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

billbax

#42
Hi drjoness2001,

No, you are not being rude.  It's very difficult to express an opinion in a friendly manner on any given forum, whilst at the same time spouting experienced knoweledge.  You'd have to be a complete saint!

I think it would be a good idea for someone here who owns a VG-99/GR-55, to do some input voltage tests and while you're at it, also some frequency response tests in dBs from 20Hz to 20k.

Something like this will provide the ultimate clarity in this discussion.

1. 400Hz sine wave into GR-55/VG-99 with a breakout box or fanout box (if you don't have a BOB, then a component cut-off inserted into pin1 on the 13pin socket will do)

2.  Set input sensitivity to say 15.

3. Increase input from your oscillator until the last LCD segment illuminates.

4.  Disconnect and check sine wave voltage with your AC MilliVolt meter

5. Reconnect oscillator and turn input sensitivity down to 0 and increase the oscillator until the last LCD segment illuminates

6. Disconnect oscillator and check voltage with AC Millivolt meter.

7. Reconnect oscillator and increase voltage until an audio clip occurs (3% THD)

8.  Disconnect oscillator and check voltage with AC Millivolt meter.

For frequency response testing I would set the input -10dB below the last LCD clipping segment.

Finally, a schematic of the GR-55/VG-99 input buffer circuit would totally settle this, with particular interest in the 'gain resistance ladder' before the digital stage.

VG-88 INPUT BUFFER (Just one input)




If the total resistor ladder's value to op-amp/codec are the same in the GR55/VG99, then the final input level to the codec will be no different to a VG88.  Does anyone here know the values of the GR55/VG99 resistance ladder? Would also be interested in learning the identity of the A/D input codec with GR55/VG99?

regards,

Bill
www.separate-strings.co.uk

Frank

#43
Hi Bill,

Thanks, the new breakout design seems just the ticket for a DIY stringport/reamping device if you will.
It's refreshing that someone has the vision to implement this idea at a reasonable price point so that (apart from the pickup) we can all enjoy polyphonic, computer based processing without the need for an overpriced gibson Dusk Tiger type setup (and for once that someone is in the UK, hurray!).
On the subject of reamping; what level can/will the breakout box accept and then spit out back into the VG from the audio interface, will it match the impedance signal the VG expects to see? Can I fire +4db at it?
I'm also interested in knowing how the new design affects breakout cable length, have you done tests to find a specific length that works best without any signal degradation or does the new design eliminate this issue to an extent?
Finally how much is the new box likely to cost?

Thanks, Frank.
Quote from:  billbax on May 28, 2011, 11:48:46 AM
Hi Frank,

There is a new design that's only a couple weeks away.  You won't need to use a DI box or any additional preamps, as the outputs will be line-matched.  It's basically an active Breakout Box and 3/5 of a GKP4 in one.  The new design boasts some pretty impressive specifications.

Dynamic Range or signal-to-noise ratio -100dBm.

Separate String Output levels - +2dBm.

Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) - 0.00487% @ 0dBm 1k sine output.


The reason for the new design, is some recording separate string users experience low output levels.  If you are an existing Breakout Box owner, I offer a modification to a GK3. The free service is quick and painless.  Basically I send you a modified GK3 and you send me your GK3 in return...simple.

ROLAND GK3 +10dB OF GAIN MOD


The modification increases the GK3 output level by 10dB, which is more than enough for a line input.



CHANGE 6 RESISTORS FROM 10K TO 33K AND GAIN +10dB. YOU'LL ALSO INCREASE YOUR SIGNAL TO NOISE
BY 7dB!

TOP E AND STRING B OUTPUT GAIN MOD (Microscope photo)



A few of my Breakout Box owners, who use a GK internal may also experience output levels problems. Everyones setup is different. I recently visited a customer here in London who was using an RMC internal Hex pickup with my Breakout Box.  The separate string outputs were about -5dB, which I thought was quite acceptable.  It really depends on the input gain of your soundcard or multitrack, and which Hex pickup system you are using.  It's all about providing me with the full knowledge of a setup, and then prescribing either a passive Breakout Box (and possible GK3 mod), or the new active Breakout Box.

Finally, I must stress that a modified GK Hex preamp offers a better audio solution to using an active breakout box.  Any audiophile knows it's bad audio preamping an input twice.  Saying that, the new battery powered Breakout Box sounds truly excellent. I will be posting details of the new Breakout Box over the next few weeks.  Hope this answers your questions.

regards,

Bill
http://billbax.110mb.com

billbax

#44
Hi Guys,

Thought you might like to view my v-guitar breakout box article in next month's SoS Magazine. It was reviewed by the god of recording studio equipment journalism - Paul White.

I originally had ideas of a five page article with a few software screen-captures, processing individual strings etc. Oh well, one out of five pages ain't bad and I'm not complaining. ;D

Cheers,

Bill 
www.separate-strings.co.uk

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may13/articles/tonesearch-gk-breakout.htm


Elantric

#45
Bill Bax
Congratulations on your well deserved recognition!

Now_And_Then

#46
 Not bad at all!

It's a shame that they only gave you one page instead of five, but on the other hand, you have to be at least a little grateful (and surprised) that, considering the, you know, "popularity" of 13-pin devices in general, they gave you any pages at all...

It seems that Paul White actually spent some time with the device and that he actually knows something about the subject. It might be only one page, but it's still pretty informative, I think.

Frank

#47
Quote from:  Now_And_Then on April 27, 2013, 07:43:37 AM
It seems that Paul White actually spent some time with the device and that he actually knows something about the subject. It might be only one page, but it's still pretty informative, I think.

Paul is a long time V-Guitar user and a big fan of hexaphonic guitar processing. He even reviewed the original VG-8  way back in 1995 http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1995_articles/may95/rolandvg8.html.

rolandvg99

#48
Read it earlier this week. Good read about a very interesting product. Congratulations.  :)
To V or not to V: That is the question.

My little Soundcloud corner

musicman65

#49
Bill,

It would be awesome to have a GK pickup output connector to connect the new Fishman Triple Play to your box....or a seperate device that does this.

Why? I may be the only one, but it seems that us hexaphonic guys that use VG/GR gear with GK pickups are unable to take advantage of the new FTP without a converter. Right now its an "either/or" situation....and the FTP loses due to our commitment to 13pin VG/GR gear.

This is a similar idea to the RackVax where the Line6 Variax guitars processing is mounted in a device outboard from the guitar. The FTP is already an outboard module so all we need is a signal conditioner to attenuate the 13pin hex signal back down to pickup output levels.

Anyone see a technical reason why this wouldn't work?

bd