GP-10 - DSP Alt Tune Anomalies

Started by djidoe, February 25, 2015, 12:27:51 PM

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Elantric

#25
QuoteThe problem is there without a connection in the axefx, in headphones connected direct in the back of GP10, the problem is still there.

No fret buzz I assure you... Happen more frequently on 4th string (but happen less frequently on others strings).

I tried lowering/raising sensityvity... Nothing works


Hope to have time to try your *.tsl patch that generates Alt tuning anomalies on my GP-10  / xtSA tonight,  - and evaluate with my hardware, and report results in 24 hours.

it might be due to a GP-10 setting?  - but I'll perform a test tonight.




QuoteTell me more about Antares, is ATG-1 is out ?



I played a demo unit November 2014 and at 2015 Winter NAMM

I understand it will be released April - May  2015,  - no idea what MSRP $$ will be

Antares ATG-1 Owners Manual
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13067.0 


shawnb

Elantric,

Recall in that old GR-55 thread that amp & ns settings introduce artifacts in certain voices for the '55.    Try amps on/off, ns on/off & look for cranked cosm parameters. 

I suspect a weird combo of parameters, the effect of which is exaggerated due to high gain. 

May be a legitimate bug with that cosm model.

Shawn

Shawn
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Elantric

#27
I tried the patch, and yes it appears the "C" position power chord has the most anomalies with DSP alt Drop Tuning, but only AFTER the string vibration dies below a specific threshold.

Work-arounds


* Play faster - avoid long held power chords

* If you must employ long held power chords  - try the Freeze function on VG-99  - or insert an EHX Freeze pedal at GP-10 output   


* Tune your guitar to a drop pitch tuning  - and use DSP Alt tuning to raise the pitch and return the guitar to standard pitch as needed  - I do this for Slide work at gigs 

* Use a Sustainer ( Fernandes / Sustainiac) that can re-energize the strings and maintain vibration at their natural frequency, to avoid the "threshold of pain" that occur when they are barely vibrating.

* Carry two guitars  - each tuned differently.


GlennDeLaune

Quote from: djidoe on February 25, 2015, 12:27:51 PM
Hi, I have a big problem using the GP10 : When I virtually tune the guitar a whole step, I get these bad artifacts on the D string.

Listen to the mp3 in the link please : https://www.dropbox.com/s/gucw6irnrf6t3nz/Artifact%20GP10.mp3?dl=0

Is it a problem with GK3 or GP10 ?

Someone else got that problem and get rid of it ?

I'm very disappointed :(

It sounds to me like the GK pickup settings are not right in the GP-10. You have to tell the GP-10 how far (in milometers) each string saddle on the bridge is from the GK pickup for that string. That's done in the Tones Studio GK settings (or you can do it on the GP-10 itself). Also make sure the height of the GK is no more that 1/16 of an inch from the strings. Then the last thing that will help is a string dampener. I use a piece of foam that is 1/2in. x 1/2in. in by (the width of the nut) and it sits right under the strings behind the nut. These things will make a HUGE difference in those digital overtones lots of people get.
Glenn Delaune
Website  l  Youtube Channel

Majiken

Quote from: Elantric on March 05, 2015, 01:59:06 PM
I tried the patch, and yes it appears the "C" position power chord has the most anomalies with DSP alt Drop Tuning, but only AFTER the string vibration dies below a specific threshold.

Work-arounds


* Play faster - avoid long held power chords

* If you must employ long held power chords  - try the Freeze function on VG-99  - or insert an EHX Freeze pedal at GP-10 output   


* Tune your guitar to a drop pitch tuning  - and use DSP Alt tuning to raise the pitch and return the guitar to standard pitch as needed  - I do this for Slide work at gigs 

* Use a Sustainer ( Fernandes / Sustainiac) that can re-energize the strings and maintain vibration at their natural frequency, to avoid the "threshold of pain" that occur when they are barely vibrating.

* Carry two guitars  - each tuned differently.

So, it seems technology still has a way to go (at least for Roland) to meet the virtual- tuning requirements 100%- if I need to carry 2 differently-tuned guitars, I'm basically defeating (for some folks anyway) one of the prime purposes for getting the thing in the first place... realizing that in real life overall tuning jumps of two whole steps are not going to result in optimal results due to mechanics & physics (think in terms of the strings alone).
I also prefer the sound and feel if I tune down and virtually pitch up- or, I use a capo- but I mainly play amplified acoustics, where a capo is cosmetically accepted by the audience as normal.  How sexy does a LP look with a capo on the 4th fret, let alone the range limitation?
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

Elantric

#30
Many folks seem to think there is "a free lunch" and zero problems with DSP modeling  / DSP Alt Tuning systems.

All  DSP modelers have issues that may be revealed during the first 10 minutes of use by  some players, while others find the DSP Alt tuning works just fine for their needs.

But if I was recording a track for release, about the only DSP gear i would rely on is a Kemper for Amp Modeling.
   

Antares ATG-1 Guitar Modeling and DSP Alt tuning remains the best Ive ever used

But re-read my thoughts on ALL DSP Guitar modeling here

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9291.msg62105#msg62105
Quote

While I have over 7800 posts on this forum about Guitar Modeling, In 2013 despite all the breakthroughs I remain in the camp that still considers playing through a DSP guitar pickup modeler remains in the same realm as thinking an an iPad pinball game can duplicate the real deal 1959 Bally PinBall Game  - with any  DSP guitar pickup modeler system ,  If you close your eyes and imagine really hard, you "almost" get in the same ballpark as the sound of playing the real guitar, but there always remains a 2 dimensional quality on these systems we discuss, that a player with good ears will be able to pick out in seconds.     


Majiken wrote>
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=46.msg94746#msg94746
QuoteI have just incorporated my GR55 into my live setup

FWIW -the DSP Alt tuning works better on 2014 Boss GP-10 compared to the Roland GR-55 

djidoe

#31
Hello,

I'm done with the GP10... I will sell it and try the ATG-1.

My needs are for detuning only. No needs of modeling amps or cabs as I have an AxeFX 2.

Elantric do you absolutely know when the ATG-1 will hit the streets ?

Many thanx to all of you for helping.

Jeff

Elantric

#32
QuoteElantric you absolutely a when the ATG-1 will hit the streets ?

No idea  - in January at 2015 Winter NAMM, Antares indicated  they were shooting for April 2015 release date or the ATG-1

ATG-1 Owners Manual is here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13067.0


Sign up for news on release date of Antares ATG-1 here:
http://www.autotuneforguitar.com/products/products.php?category=ATG-1__Floor_Processor_8

djidoe


Majiken

I have & use the GP10, like the footprint and I get along well with using it as a preamp & occasionally modelling12-string- like it much better than the GR55, and a prerequisite for me for well over a decade is that I can run everything from mandolin thru electric bass thru it live, which I do.  I agree totally on the modeling and "almost" or 2-dimensionality, which is why I run 90-95% on non-models and do't see that changing radically.

Antares hitting the market? I'll believe it when I see it, been on their mailing list for 2 years and haven't heard a thing from them. Not holding my breath  :(
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

djidoe

QuoteAntares hitting the market? I'll believe it when I see it, been on their mailing list for 2 years and haven't heard a thing from them. Not holding my breath  :(

Hope you're wrong :(

Majiken

Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

shawnb

Anybody log this as a bug with Roland?
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Elantric

#38
I suspect this " 4 semitone Drop  Alt Tuning" anomaly / flutter on Boss GP-10 ( that is most apparent when playing a C power chord) occurs on other Roland VG/GR units too.

1 )  Build a patch with clean COSM electric guitar and ALT Tunng drop D with -2 or -4 semitones.

2 ) Play a C chord - let it ring for 15 seconds and listen to the audio after 10 seconds 

3 ) Try a different chord, and let it ring 15 seconds, and listen if it exhibits flutter issues as well.


Strum a chord, the signal emerging from GP-10 Output is clean, up until all string vibrations nearly die off. At this "almost stopped vibrating"point a flutter is heard on the GP-10 output - at very low volume   - but of course since the OP is feeding GP-10 output directly into the input on the Axe-FX processor (Axe-FX loaded with a high gain Amp Rock patch with lots of compression), the AXE-FX pumps up the volume,  maintains the signal level that is dropping off on the GP-10 , and at a repeatable point in time after striking a C chord ( around 5 seconds),  the AXE-FX output, reveals the Alt Tuning flutter from GP-10  - as heard in the recording below.

Anyone with a GP-10 can verify this flutter

here is the problem GP-10 patch (with clean COSM electric guitar and ALT Tunnig dropped -4 semitones.)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13752.0;attach=11251

Here is what a C chord with DSP Alt Tuning anomaly sounds like

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hu6j6egr6gjpx7e/Artifact%20GP10.wav?dl=0



Its possible by engaging the GP-10's Gk Noise Supressor could eliminate the flutter, but this means it eliminates the sustain.
With GK N.S engaged, all long sustaining chords will by muted below a threshold

But read about Polyphonic Confusuion of DSP Drop tunings here

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10743.msg77939#msg77939


djidoe

When I play clean, even with the GP10 alone (not feeded in the AxeFX) I hear the problem. It is clearly louder in a hi gain amp but even in a clean context the problem is audible.

Thanx for helping Elantric

Majiken

Problem reproducible, good work! ROLAND, are you reading this? You got some work to do.....
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

djidoe

I really hope Antares will release ATG-1 as soon as possible...

I'm in a professional band with a new project... and I told my bandmates : "No problem for tonalities I can use my GP10 to detune what I want..."...

I'm now in a dead end :(

Ok life is good, sun and heat are back, so I will take a break and wait for ATG-1...

Thanx

Elantric

#42

Your mileage may vary . . . .

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11506.msg89642#msg89642

QuoteBut the alternate tuning was AMAZING.  The songs we cover that are in Drop D are easy enough to cover on my seven string.  But Drop C drive me nuts, because holding onto a low C power chord hurts after a while.  I was grinning like an idiot when we played "Awake" by Godsmack and it worked like a charm. 

DeRigueur

Maybe Roland needs to include a baritone guitar model.
Fender GC-1 -- Boss SY-1000 -- Alto TS112A

Elantric

#44
Read my update on the Antares ATG-1  -( no drop tuning anomalies experienced here )
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7286.msg102454#msg102454


Djidoe wrote>
Quote« Reply #164 on: March 28, 2015, 12:23:46 PM »

Hi !

I did receive my ATG-1 yesterday and I'm really blown away !

Everything is great !

I'm really a power user. I'm playing in a trio situation with looping, detuning, sequence, sync video projection and I will exploit the full potential of the ATG-1. We play rock covers from Stone Temple Pilots to Metallica and Iron Maiden. My singer/bass player use a VB-99 and is not a screamin singer like Bruce Dickinson ! So a lot of down tuning.

The ATG-1 do not create any artifacts with sustained chords when down tuning (as opposed to a Boss GP-10).

The Windows editor is really great and the ATG-1 is so simple to understand... no heavy lurning curve...

The acoustic guitars sound great when EQed and compressed. I agree that the Variax was better sounding (before FW 2). But ATG-1 acoustic guitars are usable.

MIDI implementation is also great. Simple to use with SONAR for Program Changes... except you have to uncheck something in a MIDI menu (Zero controllers when play stop).

More later...

Brak(E)man

#45
Is only me or ???

The alt tune is OK unless I let it ring out
Then it crashes into noise / artifacts
It's most prominent on acoustic sim and barytone or reverse Nashville tuning
Not so much on one octave up or down
It's a bit worse when using Fernandez sustainer , but on all the VGS
Nothing like this ever occurred

Anyone else ???
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Redvers

I hear some artefacts on the 12 string stuff (octave up) but to be honest, I use loads of tunings live and never hear anything to put me off.

Brak(E)man

This is so bad I have to mute strings before the ring out  , otherwise it sounds like shite
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Redvers

Either you're hearing things that don't bother most users, or your gk settings need looking at? Personally I kind of accept the modelling and alt tune stuff to be around 80% close to the real thing which is good enough for me. Something like a pitch shifted Nashville tuning is never going to sound flawless.

Brak(E)man

The Nashville reverse sounds ok on all the vgs not perfect but not like this sh**
And I have 6 or 7 gk guitars  that works with all units and otherwise the GP is ok

It's only when sustaining the strings into silence , all hell breakes loose
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch