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Roland GR-55 V-Guitar / PCM System => Roland GR-55 Top things to know => Topic started by: adagosto on August 04, 2015, 11:09:02 AM

Title: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 04, 2015, 11:09:02 AM
When I use the "Guitar Out" an connect that to the "Guitar In" on my amp, the Normal Pickup tone is very thin and lacks a significant amount of "tone".  It sounds shallow and almost tinny and lacks all the low end.

I tried connecting the GK-55 Guitar Out into my pedal board as well as directly into the amp with no change in tone.  I did make sure I was actually hearing the Normal Pickups and not the modeled guitar tone.  When I added the modeled sound it actually sounded much better, but nothing like when I plug the guitar directly into the amp.

Is this something that can be fixed/controlled/improved??  Or is this kinda normal for the GK-55.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: mbenigni on August 04, 2015, 11:24:23 AM
Not clear as to why your signal improves when you run through your pedal board.  There must be some buffer/ impedance matching helping you out there.  But yes, it is a known problem with the GR55 that the Guitar Out has a low signal-to-noise ratio.  That may be related to what you're hearing.  One workaround is to avoid use of the Guitar Out and route your dry guitar signal left and your wet/synth signal right (or vice versa).  This introduces some complications, though: in order to maintain that separation, you have to avoid use of the stereo post effects (delay, reverb, chorus, eq) which will otherwise blend those two signal paths.

Other alternatives have been discussed, including hardware mods.  If you search for "pin 7 output" you will probably find several threads on the subject.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: Elantric on August 04, 2015, 12:19:10 PM
Correct,  the GR-55's "Guitar Out" does suffer with poor noise 

Is a result of the GR-55 design.

The GR-55's "Guitar Out" jack offers the ability to select between normal Mag PU Tone, or COSM Modeling Tone with Alt Tunings - all signals are run through an A/D >DSP> D/A and this significantly changes  the characteristics of your HiZ Instrument magnetic pickup tone.   


More details here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3196.msg111732#msg111732 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3196.msg111732#msg111732)
I have learned  the details of why the GR-55 Guitar Output has more noise than expected.

On other Roland/Boss GT/GP/GR processors the "Guitar Output  provides a "Dry normal pickup" signal output only - using an Op amp buffered (all analog) signal path.

The Roland GR-55's Guitar Output circuit is very different. (see below)  The Dry normal pickup" signal (from GK Pin #7) is being sent to an Analog to Digital converter and fed into a DSP, then a Digital to Analog converter. There is no Dry normal pickup direct Out analog signal path like other gear.

Roland designed the GR-55 in this manner with a goal of allowing the option for the GR-55 to feed its COSM Guitar modelling and DSP Alt tuning signal to your other Guitar FX and Amp (via the "Guitar Out" jack), to function rather like a Variax. This was the lowest cost method for Roland to achieve the unique attributes / features.  Remember for any GR-55 preset, the GR-55's Guitar Output can be reconfigurable for choice of :

* Dry Normal PU sound  Only
* COSM Modeled Guitar Sound
* Muted ( no Sound)

They use the DSP to provide this re-routing, which was implemented at a lower cost ( and fewer parts) than a low noise FET analog switching circuit.
 

Start reading at first post in this thread for details on methods of modifying the GR-55 to provide a "Dry normal pickup" signal output only - using an all analog) signal path for lower noise.


(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.snapagogo.com%2Fuploads%2Fsource%2F2152015%2F1438716168_180770843_GR55_NormalPU_SignalPath.jpg&hash=ce4229c79df51f07e9bd6ccbcb0d2dd96284b568)
Title: Re: Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 04, 2015, 12:55:19 PM
Hi.

To be clear, there is NO difference in tone between the pedal board hookup and when I plug directly into the amp.

So the best work around it to run a cable from the guitar directly to my amp and NOT use the GK-55 Guitar Out?

That's not the best, but it will work.  I really just wanted to be sure I wasn't doing something wrong!

Thanks!!
Title: Re: Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: mbenigni on August 04, 2015, 01:41:33 PM
Quote from: adagosto on August 04, 2015, 12:55:19 PM
To be clear, there is NO difference in tone between the pedal board hookup and when I plug directly into the amp.

Sorry - right, I can see where I misunderstood above.  Yes, the best workaround - assuming you don't want to modify your GR55 or give up the post-effects - is to run a 2nd cable.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: Elantric on August 04, 2015, 01:43:38 PM
Quote
So the best work around it to run a cable from the guitar directly to my amp and NOT use the GK-55 Guitar Out?

Correct - that's what I do most of the time when I use my GR-55
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 04, 2015, 07:06:23 PM
Hi.  I re-read what I wrote and my wording was screwy.  Buy yeah this leads to a new issue/question.

So my next thought was, "How would it sound if I played ONLY the modeled guitar tone and NOT use the guitar pickups at all?"  So I adjusted the output setting in MASTER --> OTHER to MODELED and I used the Rick.  I like that guitar anyway.  Frankly I was pretty amazed at how good it sounded all by itself.  For the gigs that my son does and how we might use this guitar in his shows, that modeled tone just might be good enough.

But then I bumped into a problem.  I cannot change the amp or any of the effects that run out of the Guitar Out jack.  All of the modeling tones are directed to the Output jacks and those go to my acoustic amp (can't use distortion there  :o).

How can I change the settings to get the modeled guitar tone AND the amp model and effects to route to the Guitar Out jack and to my amp?

Thanks guys!!
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: Elantric on August 04, 2015, 07:37:59 PM
Quote
How can I change the settings to get the modeled guitar tone AND the amp model and effects to route to the Guitar Out jack and to my amp?

If you discover a way, let us know

But read all the details of the GR-55 Guitar Out Jack here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3196.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3196.0)
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 04, 2015, 08:28:57 PM
Quote"No COSM Amp modeling nor FX can be sent to the dry Guitar Out jack on the GR-55."

This blows me away!!  Why would Roland go through all this trouble designing and building this unit and fall short in this most elementary way?  There may be a reason, but when the software was written with so many other customization options, I can't see a reason to limit this ability.

That's disappointing, but thank you for the quick bit of information.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: gumtown on August 04, 2015, 09:06:45 PM
So you have to go out and buy a GT-100.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: mbenigni on August 05, 2015, 07:49:53 AM
Quote from: adagosto on August 04, 2015, 08:28:57 PM
"No COSM Amp modeling nor FX can be sent to the dry Guitar Out jack on the GR-55."

This blows me away!!  Why would Roland go through all this trouble designing and building this unit and fall short in this most elementary way?  There may be a reason, but when the software was written with so many other customization options, I can't see a reason to limit this ability.

That's disappointing, but thank you for the quick bit of information.

Most all of us agree this was disappointing and a little short-sighted on Roland's part.  The obvious application for that output is direct to a guitar amp (with L/R off to P.A. for synths or acoustic guitar or whatever).  So at minimum you'd expect to be able to route guitar and/or COSM guitar + the MOD block effects to Guitar Out.  Alas, wishing does not make it so.  (I certainly tried LOL.)
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: JolietJake on August 05, 2015, 08:58:57 AM
As long as you don't want stereo you can do this instead of using the guitar out:


GR-55- Separate guitar out with effects (sort of)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14252.msg102622#msg102622 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14252.msg102622#msg102622)
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 05, 2015, 09:18:36 AM
JolietJake and all,

What you have described here is exactly what my next step was to try.  You saved me a lot of time!!!  I think this is a very good and sensible "work-around".

I must say, Roland really got this wrong.  For a premium price tag for the GR-55, you don't get a premium feature-set when you need to make creative work-arounds to do what should be intelligent design.  This could be a good example of how the people writing the code are not the people who use it.  Fact also it, the is one very big firmware update away to solving the problem.  That's probably not going to happen.  This also makes we want to look for alternatives to Roland. 

Does anyone else use a different synth?  Yamaha maybe???
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: Elantric on August 05, 2015, 09:52:48 AM
QuoteI must say, Roland really got this wrong.  For a premium price tag for the GR-55, you don't get a premium feature-set when you need to make creative work-arounds to do what should be intelligent design.  This could be a good example of how the people writing the code are not the people who use it.  Fact also it, the is one very big firmware update away to solving the problem.  That's probably not going to happen.  This also makes we want to look for alternatives to Roland. 

100% agree - many here forget that back in 2011 when the GR-55 was introduced, the GR-55 was $100 cheaper than it is today. Also the VG-99 was still in production and selling without a foot controller for $1499/.  In 2011 ,  GR-55 at $600, was considered a cut down  / cost saving alternative.

But in late 2012 the GR-55 price increased $100 to where it is today.

I doubt the GR-55 would be as successful as it has become today, without Gumtown's GR-55 Editor and this forum.   


GR-55 F.A.Q.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3137 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3137)

Quote"No COSM Amp modeling nor FX can be sent to the dry Guitar Out jack on the GR-55."

I figure most Roland salesmen hide this important fact "pre-sale"
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 05, 2015, 10:45:29 AM
That's a very good point.  This forum has helped make this tool "usable".  What I find, that's worth mentioning, is that I have been able to ask somewhat common questions and not necessarily complicated ones and been able to get the answers in literally minutes.  What's more, the answers normally lead me to more answers to things I have yet to ask!!

Roland is scoring big time!!

Good work to this forum and the guy answering the questions.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: Elantric on August 05, 2015, 11:02:02 AM
QuoteGood work to this forum and the guy answering the questions.

We are all volunteers here!

Story of VGuitarForums
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7912.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7912.0)
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: JolietJake on August 05, 2015, 11:49:48 AM
QuoteJolietJake and all,

What you have described here is exactly what my next step was to try.  You saved me a lot of time!!!  I think this is a very good and sensible "work-around".


GR-55- Separate guitar out with effects (sort of)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14252.msg102622#msg102622 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14252.msg102622#msg102622)


No problem. This forum has helped me many times. It's nice to pay it back now and again.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 05, 2015, 07:11:11 PM
Wow!  For the life of me I cannot get the L/R thing to work.

I have tried to simplify this with one PCM and one guitar model and that's it.
TONE PAGE:
I have the PCM1 set to PAN R50.  That works.
I have the PCM2 set to PAN R50.  That works (when I have it on).
On the Tone page when you press ENTER, you get three tabs (PCM1, PCM2 and MODEL).  For some reason, you cannot select PAN from the MODEL tab!!

EFFECT PAGE:
I have the amp model turned on and everything else it off.
Then when I press ENTER, the STRUCT is set to 2
MOD is set to PAN L50.
MFX is set to PAN L50 (I'm not clear on this, I thought MFX tones were associated with PCM1 & 2, but when I switch this setting to R50, it moves ALL tones from one amp to the other.  I cannot "split"  the tones!)
DEL, REV, CHO and EQ are all off

What am I doing wrong?
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: gumtown on August 05, 2015, 07:41:49 PM
Make sure the PCM tones are not routed through MFX and MOD (if you use GR-55FloorBoard editor it will be graphically obvious),
MOD or MFX need to be switched 'on' for the PAN to work (I think?)
Delay, Chorus and Reverb will need to be switched 'off' as they will cause channel bleed at the output.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: stratrat on August 05, 2015, 08:03:04 PM
Quote from: gumtown on August 05, 2015, 07:41:49 PM
MOD or MFX need to be switched 'on' for the PAN to work (I think?)
Nope - the pan still works when they are bypassed.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 05, 2015, 09:01:00 PM
How do I make sure the PCMs are not routed through the MOD and MFX without the floor software?  That is probaby my next project.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: Elantric on August 05, 2015, 09:42:05 PM
QuoteHow do I make sure the PCMs are not routed through the MOD and MFX without the floor software?  That is probaby my next project.

For best GR-55 enjoyment,  best to learn Gumtowns GR-55 Floorboard Editor

Here's how:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;sa=downfile&id=86 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;sa=downfile&id=86)
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 05, 2015, 09:49:44 PM
I will do this, promise.  But I really need to learn how to program it without a computer.  The reason is, if I'm at a gig and need to make some changes on the fly, I will not have a PC to help me.

Do you know how to explain the PCM routing instructions using just the screen?
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: gumtown on August 05, 2015, 09:56:07 PM
This is cheating. but you can see all four tone sources have 3 routes to choose, MOD, MFX, BYPASS
The BYPASS option takes the signal direct to the Delay, Reverb, and Chorus.

There are settings inside the GR-55 for each tone source, but I don't know where in the cryptic GR-55 menu system.

(https://i.vimeocdn.com/video/492565338_640.jpg)

Also depending on the Structure setting, you will want the PCM synths to go via BYPASS or MFX, and the Modeled or Normal PU tone via MOD (and or MFX depending on the Structure setting).
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: JolietJake on August 06, 2015, 01:12:12 AM
Also, you MUST have L and R connected or Pan doesnt work. You cant have only one cable connected.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: stratrat on August 06, 2015, 01:22:26 AM
On the GR-55, Go to the "effects" tab and press enter to go into into the advanced view, then one page back and you will see the structure tab. The routing can be changed there.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 06, 2015, 09:36:36 PM
SUCCESS!!!!!!

I got it to work!!!  Yeah!!

That was the trick, by going into the Structures tab and adjusting the PCM pathways AWAY from the Model path.  In Structure 2, the MOD and MFX are both in line.  That's why your instructions were to pan them both together.  Then when you Bypass the PCMs you can pan them the other way.

My problem was that I didn't understand you could actually play around with the pathways.  I just missed that detail.

This is a very cool "work-around".
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 14, 2015, 09:32:42 PM
Hold the phone....

:(

I'm still having problems.  I thought I had it right but on later check not so much.  Everything works except the modeled guitar will always OUTPUT to both the acoustic amp (PA) and the tube amp.  I'm trying to get the modeled guitar to only output to the PA and the normal pickups to only output to the tube amp.

The MOD and FX are both PAN left 50.  The PCMs are PAN right 50.  PCM1, PCM2 and Model are all bypassed and the normal pickups are routed through the AMP< MOD and FX in structure 2.

What am I doing wrong?

HELP!!!!
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: gumtown on August 14, 2015, 09:46:54 PM
Are you using the main outputs Left and Right?
because in another post you mention feedback from the Guitar Out when using hi gain GR-55 amps.

BTW: if you are using the GR-55 high gain preamps and plugging into the front of a regular guitar amp, you end up with double the gain, which results in lots of feedback.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 15, 2015, 08:28:33 AM
Hi.

Yes I'm back to the OUTPUT only setup.  Yes I also talked about the Guitar Out feedback problem, but I have two things going on.  Once I discovered I didn't have the OUTPUT only setup working exactly correct, I went back to it to learn what I'm doing wrong.  So I'm kinda multi tasking.  I'm sorry if I've confused things.

Here are my goals:
(1) I need to understand the OUTPUT only method using the panning trick/workaround.
(2) I need to learn the same basic setup using the Guitar Out and one of the OUTPUT jacks.  In this case, I would need the Guitar Out for only the Normal Pickups and everything else would go to the PA.

At the moment I have nether working exactly correct.  So maybe you can help me get the OUTPUT only option working.  The switching of tones works really well.  You taught me how do do it using the SYSTEM setting and I have since switched to the Patch settings in MASTER.  It works great.  So my problem is just controlling where the tone gets output.

Thank you again in advance.  This must be the most productive forum I've ever used.  I can't wait till I can give back to it!! Hahaha!  Need more learning.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 15, 2015, 09:12:42 AM
I can also add this:

I just check the physical output cables.  The modeled guitar IS in fact being output to the LEFT channel.  When I unplug the LEFT instrument cable from the GR-55, the signal to my amp is removed but the RIGHT output still carries the Modeled tone to the acoustic amp (PA).

So for some reason, the Modeled tone is being routed to the LEFT channel and I can't see where that's being set.  The Structure is: 2 and the PCM1, PCM2 and Model are all BYPASS.

Any idea?
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 15, 2015, 09:32:15 AM
Here's just a tiny bit more info.

I just tried swapping everything around.  LEFT now carries the PCM1 and PCM2 tone and the RIGHT carries the MOD and MFX.  Results: No change

So just for fun, instead of bypassing the modeled amp along with the two PCM's, I set the model to AMP so that it would be routed AWAY from the PCM tones.  Results: now that worked.  In this case, the model and normal pickups were ONLY being routed to the amp.  the two PCM tones were only being routed to the PA.  In some cases this is what I'd actually want to do.

However, in my case, the modeled guitar is an acoustic guitar tone and I want it to ONLY be routed to the acoustic amp/PA.  This should be possible.

I'm die'en over here!!

???
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: JolietJake on August 15, 2015, 09:54:07 AM
Hello Adagosto

I have attached 2 patches.

The first patch has a modeled Strat with some chorus and delay on the Left Out. The 2nd patch has strings with Tremolo on the Right out. They are just examples that you could maybe mess around with.

Maybe if you cant modify these for what you need you could upload some of your patches and I can have a look at them for you.

Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 15, 2015, 11:43:20 AM
Hello,

I used the Floorboard to review your patches.  Thank you.  I'm going to play around with them.  In the mean time, I have uploaded my Jesus of Suburbia patch.  If you don't mind, can you take a look?

Just to review the goals:
PCM1, PCM2 and Modeled acoustic guitar tone should be OUTPUT on the RIGHT signal only to the PA.
Normal pickups should be routed to the LEFT OUTPUT and to an amp.

GOOD LUCK!!!

I'd really appreciate you taking a look.

Also note, this patch uses the S1/S2 and CTL footswitch to control the selection of tones.

Again, thank you,

Adam
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: gumtown on August 15, 2015, 12:32:51 PM
Some information on the GR-55 outputs:
With two cables plugged in you get Left/Right Stereo output.
If only one cable is plugged into the Right output, you get just the Right signal.
If only one cable is plugged into the Left output, you get both Left and Right signals summed together (the jack has Left/Mono written on it)
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 15, 2015, 12:41:55 PM
Hi.  I'm ok with all that.   This is why when using the pan left/pan right "trick" two cables are required.

In my case, I have two cables connected.  For some reason, the modeled guitar (and only the modeled guitar) is being routed to both the left and right channels.

Would you mind looking at the patch I uploaded and see if you can find the problem?

Thank you.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: gumtown on August 15, 2015, 01:30:13 PM
I can't remember your exact goal,
But I have modified your patch.
the issue was the structure (2) had both the mod and mfx in series, where you actually want them separate (structure 1), one left and one right.
The Modeled guitar seemed to be totally disabled in this patch, it now passes through the right panned MFX, I also changed the Pedal functions so that
when the CTL is toggled it has PCM1 + modelled guitar, then PCM2 and normal PU.

Have not tried out the patch with the GR-55, so it could be all wrong.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: JolietJake on August 15, 2015, 02:17:49 PM
I have been looking at the post I put on originally and at the original way I did it and found out a few things I was unaware of before.

The MOD and MFX both have Pan settings, However if they are both used in series (as in structure A) then only the Pan setting from the MFX module is used and the setting for the MOD module is ignored.

However if you change the structure (structure B) and send other sources through the MOD module independently, then the Pan setting of  the MOD module is applied to that source alone. This allows you to have independent L and R signals on the same patch.

i.e.
Doing this it is possible to do strange things such as to have your real guitar sound output from the Left channel and a modeled version of your guitar output to the Right channel, at the same time. What is even stranger is you can have 2 independent effect on each side.
Try a delay with slightly different delay times on each side. It can sound enormous.

The options with this thing are never ending.

I hope this makes sense....
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 15, 2015, 03:33:22 PM
JolietJake and all,

Well I can't say I understand you exactly, but if I am following your suggestion I would do the following:

Structure 1: PCM1, PCM2 and Guitar Model should be set to AMP.  The MOD should be PAN RIGHT 50.
Structure 1: Normal pickups should be set to MFX.  The MFX should be PAN LEFT 50.
The PCM's should be both PAN RIGHT 50.

Can you at least confirm if doing this actually achieved my objective?  I can't actually try it now because my sons' using it in his rehearsal now.  Haha.  At least he's getting to use it!

Thx
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 15, 2015, 03:39:14 PM
And for that matter couldn't you set the PCMs and model to MFX and pan that right.  Then push the normal pickups into the AMP and MOD and pan that left?
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: JolietJake on August 15, 2015, 04:00:45 PM
Correct, with this you should be able to select any combination of PCM1, PCM2, Modeling and Real guitar and send them to L or R as you desire.

You originally said the guitar out sounded thin and the "tone sucked", now you should be able to use either L or R as the guitar out and have a lot more control over the sound as you can add Amp modelling, MOD FX, MultiFX and EQ to the tone you get on that output.

Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: gumtown on August 15, 2015, 04:01:54 PM
Quote from: adagosto on August 15, 2015, 03:39:14 PM
And for that matter couldn't you set the PCMs and model to MFX and pan that right.  Then push the normal pickups into the AMP and MOD and pan that left?
Yes - check out the patch of yours I have modified and attached a few posts back, it is setup like that.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 15, 2015, 04:59:03 PM
JolietJake and gumtown,

Couple few things.  JolietJake, yes you are correct.  I started this post and was questioning the GUITAR OUT problem.  It was you that took us to the Left/Right Panning trick that has brought us here.  I'm really glad you did!!

Gumtown, you said, "Yes - check out the patch of yours I have modified and attached a few posts back, it is setup like that."  I'm not following you.  Did you post something?

Anyway, I still have not tried this out yet.  They are still in rehearsal.  I'll try it at the break.  They sound a little rough still  :o

Having said all that, after I get this all sorted out and working, my next question for you guys will be how to replicate all this but instead use the Guitat Out and Left/mono Output.  Here's why.  First I figured out why the Guitar Out was sucking tone.  The reason was because I was screwing up the controls on my guitar.  There are so many knobs on that Carvin SH675!!!  Anyway, I'm getting good tone out of it at the moment.  Yes it is hot, but I will try a noise suppressor.   I posted a question about that the other day.  The other reason I would like the Guitar Out working is because we found that using the Left/Right method described above, when playing high gain, high distortion tones the tone was very thin and seemed to lack "balls".  Maybe the Guitar Out and Left/mono method might sound better.  But that would really need to have the same tone functionality and tone switching functionality the left/right pan trick has.  But that's next!!

Thanks guys.

Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: gumtown on August 15, 2015, 05:06:09 PM
Quote from: adagosto on August 15, 2015, 04:59:03 PMGumtown, you said, "Yes - check out the patch of yours I have modified and attached a few posts back, it is setup like that."  I'm not following you.  Did you post something?
Yes after you posted your patch, I looked at it and modified it to suit your purposes, it is attached in a post back up the list here.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15798.0;attach=12596 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15798.0;attach=12596)

Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 15, 2015, 10:11:22 PM
Total Success!!!

I spoke too soon last time.  But you guys have been amazing.  The sad part is, without you, I would have returned this thing.  No amount of manual reading would have ever got me there.  For that I am grateful for your help.

I ended up setting this patch up like I suggested in my follow up question.  I routed the PCMs and Model into the MFX block and the Pickups run through the MOD.  VERY COOL STUFF GUYS!  I will play around with Guntown's patch tomorrow.   These are different.

Best regards,

Adam
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 16, 2015, 02:26:08 PM
Hey, little update...

I ended up going back to the setup you initially suggested.  I put the PCMs and Model through the AMP and MOD blocks and the Pickups through the MFX block.  By doing it this way I can essentially have two amp models going at the same time.  The MFX uses the amp simulator.

Now for a question, can I ask for help on figuring out how to setup all this functionality using the Guitar Out and the Left/mono Output?  Or would you rather me start a new thread or would you rather me go somewhere else. Hahah!!

This is my next project.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: JolietJake on August 16, 2015, 02:56:27 PM
Hello

Unfortunately you can't do that. the guitar out is fixed and can't be changed.

Just out of interest, why would you want to do to that when essentially you have the same thing already.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: gumtown on August 16, 2015, 02:58:30 PM
You beat me to it...
That is right, the "Guitar Out" is dry guitar only, no amp's or effects, only normal PU, and/or modelled guitar.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 16, 2015, 03:48:28 PM
The reason I would want to learn an alternative method is two fold.  One reason is because I noticed a bit of tone loss out of the Left Output on high gain settings.  It just sounded weak as compared to directly into an amp.  Nothing seems to beat that.  The other reason is simply wanting to learn a different way to setup the patch.  Perhaps one way would work better than the other in different conditions.

However, that seems moot at this point doesn't it?

Having said all that, is there any integration of the Guitar Out with the Tone Logic?  What I mean is, if the Guitar Out cable is plugged directly into an amp, is there any switching ability to turn that tone on and off OR is it always on?

If its always on and has no switching ability than I can't see any reason why to use it?   Is that why people say they often run two cables out of their guitars (13-pin & 1/4" guitar).  If this all true so far, this then presents a problem for me as my guitar does not have a magnetic pickup "kill" switch.  The Gk pickup is all internal.  I know you can add this switch, but I'd hate to drill another hole!  But maybe....

Thoughts?
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: Elantric on August 16, 2015, 05:03:41 PM
Quote
Having said all that, is there any integration of the Guitar Out with the Tone Logic?  What I mean is, if the Guitar Out cable is plugged directly into an amp, is there any switching ability to turn that tone on and off OR is it always on?

If its always on and has no switching ability than I can't see any reason why to use it?   Is that why people say they often run two cables out of their guitars (13-pin & 1/4" guitar).  If this all true so far, this then presents a problem for me as my guitar does not have a magnetic pickup "kill" switch.  The Gk pickup is all internal.  I know you can add this switch, but I'd hate to drill another hole!  But maybe....




If you set the Guitar Out to COSM Modeled Guitar Tone only, then for each GR-55 patch there will be an option for a different tone.

For example you could build a bank where the sound emerging from Guitar Out on

User patch 1-1 = COSM Modeled Acoustic Guitar,

User patch 1-2 = COSM Modeled Strat Neck PU,

User patch 1-3 = COSM Modeled Les Paul Bridge PU
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 16, 2015, 09:16:56 PM
Elantric and all,

You actually gave me a new thought.  In my last setup, I was running the PCMs and Model through the AMP and MOD blocks and the Pickups through the MFX block.  The AMP model was a clean tone and the MFX amp simulator was a dirty high distortion tone.  We used this in rehearsal today and that flopped.  Just could not get a good tone on the dirty side of the house.

So, I flipped it around.  Now I'm running the PCMs and Model through the MFX block and the Pickups into the AMP and MOD blocks.  I'll use the MFX amp simulator to simulate a clean tone and the Amp model will be the BG Lead which we know works well from experience.  I think this will be a better setup.  I'll have to wait til next Saturday to find out.

That all said, your Three-Bank setup described above would certainly work, but the problem I have with that is the delay from one Patch to another.  When they play Everlong he's got to go from clean to dirty fast.  I think I should be ok with what I've setup now.  Just have to see (hear).

Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: Elantric on August 17, 2015, 08:28:50 AM
Quote, but the problem I have with that is the delay from one Patch to another. 

True and for me this prevents me from using the GR-55 as my only Guitar processor at live gigs

I get more use with the Boss GP-10 - which has instant patch changes
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 17, 2015, 09:46:18 AM
Do you run the GR-55 and the GP-10 together on stage?  Does one run out of the other or do you use them independently?

I have read many threads in this forum about the GR-55 vs GP-10, but it seems to me there is no one single midi tool that gives you the best of the GR-55 and the best guitar tone and guitar tone options under one hood. 

This two cable panning method is great, but it's still frustrating.  For three or four hundred dollars I don't think I should complain too much.  But at $700.00....  Ok now I'm complaining...sorry.  I'm done now.

I'd like to know how you use the GP-10 and if you use it with the 55 or not.

Thanks!
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: Elantric on August 17, 2015, 10:40:11 AM
QuoteI'd like to know how you use the GP-10 and if you use it with the 55 or note

I use the GP-10 + Fishman Tripleplay far more than the GR-55.

The GR-55 is a Jack of trades, master of none - too many compromises with only one CTRL pedal and one Expression pedal

By Contrast my GP-10 + EV-5 I have two Expression pedals and two CTL pedals for every patch, and and there are zero audio drop outs during any patch change.  Can't do any of that with the GR-55 

most of time I use the 13 pin guitars for Guitar Modeling  / Alt Tuning.

Ive had too many occasions where the crowd leaves and the band never gets rehired when the Guitarist is playing Trumpet  / Accordian sounds Synths most of the night, and the audience cant connect with the musicians on stage because they cant  determine that these sounds are being played "Live". If their "Karaoke detector" kicks in, the crowd leaves.   Most gigs I put on a good show and capture the crowd using just my fingers and carefully placed notes, and well rehearsed band.  Musicianship trumps Guitar Synths everytime.

read "The Audience Listens with their eyes"
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4900.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4900.0)
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: CodeSmart on August 17, 2015, 01:20:07 PM
Quote from: Elantric on August 17, 2015, 10:40:11 AM
The Audience Listens with their eyes"
Agree, I however find GR-55 perfect for additional texture and background fillers to the GP-10 guitar sounds when accompanying. People don't need to think, it just sounds fat. For solos I turn it off and only let the GP-10 alone do the talk. I don't have FTP but I guess I would probably use it the same way. I used to do a sax solo using the GR-55 in Thin Lizzy "Dancing in the moonlight", sounded so close to the real thing, but parts of the audience always looked confused. Didn't feel right.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 17, 2015, 01:28:35 PM
WOW!!  I could not agree more.  Excellent point about the crowd and the disconnect in playing horns for instance through a guitar.  Many people would have no clue where that sound is coming from!!

I clearly see this as a problem, however, like you said, there are ways of dealing with that on stage.  Also, using the synth tones sparingly is important too.  In my sons' band case, they will use it in about 15% of the songs I'd say, maybe 2 in 10 songs.

My biggest problem will be ensuring I can get really good tone out of the guitar for the high gain sounds while at the same time having access to all the synth tones.  You guys have really helped me get the tone selection issues resolved here in this forum (the use of the CTL foot switch and and S1/S2 switch logic).  This is great and I think will cover all our needs.  Again the problem I'll have is guitar tone.  These kids are tone snobs already!!!  But if they want to play Santana's Smooth or Jesus of Suburbia, they are going to probably have to accept some less than perfect issues.

Again, thanks for the help with all this.  I would actually like to create a two-cable panning patch guide and post it.  Sure might help someone else get there quickly.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: adagosto on August 20, 2015, 09:02:20 AM
For what it's worth....

You may recall I had made some complaints about guitar tone when using the two cable OUTPUT pan LEFT/pan RIGHT method.  NOTE: this is NOT the method used in the title of this thread!

Anyway, I had reported that the guitar tone seemed thin and lacked "balls" when using the two cable OUTPUT pan LEFT/pan RIGHT method.  I thought the guitar tone was particularly affected on high gain settings with lots of distortion.

Here's my update...

User error.

I got to playing around with it in more detail last night.  Not only was I able to get the tone "just right" but after getting where I thought it was as good as I could get it, I then bypassed the entire GR-55 and went out of the guitar 1/4" and directly into the amp.  There was almost no discernible change in tone.  If you studied the sound, yes there's a difference, but it was very subtle and NO WOULD NOTICE this in a gig.

So I'm pretty happy with that!!!
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: Klaus on November 13, 2015, 03:50:37 AM
Hi

Maybe this can help you, it worked for me :)

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=16607.0 (https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=16607.0)
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: ztan on January 21, 2023, 10:39:46 PM
Quote from: adagosto on August 04, 2015, 11:09:02 AMWhen I use the "Guitar Out" an connect that to the "Guitar In" on my amp, the Normal Pickup tone is very thin and lacks a significant amount of "tone".  It sounds shallow and almost tinny and lacks all the low end.

I tried connecting the GK-55 Guitar Out into my pedal board as well as directly into the amp with no change in tone.  I did make sure I was actually hearing the Normal Pickups and not the modeled guitar tone.  When I added the modeled sound it actually sounded much better, but nothing like when I plug the guitar directly into the amp.

Is this something that can be fixed/controlled/improved??  Or is this kinda normal for the GK-55.

Thoughts?
Old thread, but I've just been looking at schematics.
1. The input impedance on the GK3 "guitar in" jack is 470K - this can suck tone dependent on your pickups.
2. The "guitar out" from the GR55 signal path: Pickups -> GK3 "guitar in" -> buffer -> pin 7 on GK cable -> buffer -> ADC -> DSP -> DAC -> GR55 "guitar out".  Elantric has already pointed this out.
3. For those running a "dry guitar out" loop which hijacks the pin 7 signal, the input buffer for on the GR55 only has a 100K impedance as it expects an active signal.

Potential solutions:
1. Open up the GK3 box and change a 470K resistor to 1M or above.
2. Not alterable.
3. Install a simple buffer after the input jack and run it off the +/-7V rails, or change the 100K resistor up on the GR55 mainboard.
Title: Re: GR-55 -Guitar Out -- Sucks Guitar Tone, why? How to fix?
Post by: billbax on January 22, 2023, 07:24:32 AM
Yes, swapping the surface mount GK3 470k resistor to 1Meg is probably the best solution. In an ideal GK3 P7 input circuit a 5M-10M pot/preset would find the sweet impedance spot, but that's costly and impractical. The case for a external GR55 input buffer is a good one, And it would be great to switch between three normal P7 input guitars in a pedal ;D

Bill
https://separate-strings.co.uk

GKP-2 parallel P7 switcher.
14dB EMI/RF improvement over a GK3 P7 input. A normal guitar buffer op-amp +input is an antenna for EMI/RF, and Roland should have gone with a pressed-aluminium GK3 shielded enclosure...tut tut.
(https://www.separate-strings.co.uk/redswitcherop16562e.jpg)

Basic P7 circuit with hi-end op-amp OPA1656.
Best placed in a diecast screened case using battery power. A GR55 +/-7VDC is a second choice, but adds 2-3dB mains psu ripple. 
(https://www.separate-strings.co.uk/pin7circuit2.jpg)