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Roland GR-55 V-Guitar / PCM System => Roland GR-55 Discussion => Topic started by: dogbite on February 13, 2012, 07:45:51 PM

Title: GR-55 - Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: dogbite on February 13, 2012, 07:45:51 PM
Hi.  So far this forum is really great.  One of the coolest things, is the floorboard software and the other user patches.  I am able to dissect a patch to see how it was created and that is helping me quite a bit.

Now, is there a way to do a guitar lead with a harmony?  For example have a patch that can play a 3rd above what I am playing?  I have this ability with my TC Electronics Nova System, and it seems pretty basic but I can't figure out how to do it!

A couple of examples are the intro solos to Steely Dan's Reelin' in the Years, and the little lead riff of Thin Lizzy's the Boys are back in town...

My band does these, and I would really love to nail them better with the correct leads.  Even if the gr-55 can't, could you folks offer any suggestions?  I have been playing many years, but this is my first cover band so I am unsure of how to approach things like this.

Thanks!

dogbite
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: gumtown on February 13, 2012, 08:02:44 PM
I can't recall just off hand if the MFX pitch shifter mixes pitch & dry signal, the GR-55 doesn't have any intelligent harmoniser, but you could do a basic pitch harmony, or use a mix of normal pickup for the root note and the modeled tone set to alternate tuning for the harmony.
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: kenact on February 14, 2012, 11:32:41 AM
There are numerous devices with intelligent harmonizers, such as the GR-33 & GP-100.  There are computer based harmonizers as well, but none that I have used.

As gumtown said, there is, unfortunately, no real "harmonizer" in the GR-55.

One of the problems with the GR-33 & GP-100 harmonizers is that you must set a key, and if the lead you are playing goes outside that key, the harmonizer doesn't really work.  I know there's a way to change the key on the GR-33 while you're playing, it's just something I've never tried doing.
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: dogbite on February 15, 2012, 06:12:17 PM
Thanks folks.  I really do appreciate your help.  I am liking this unit more and more every time i get into it. I could see it replacing my rig for the cover band.  Stay tuned, and please don't get frustrated with me...  I'll be bugging everyone.  I'm not much of a forum guy, so this is all new to me.  Not quite sure of the etiquette. 



Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: gafaell on February 17, 2012, 04:17:11 AM
Quote from: dogbite on February 15, 2012, 06:12:17 PM
Thanks folks.  I really do appreciate your help.  I am liking this unit more and more every time i get into it. I could see it replacing my rig for the cover band.  Stay tuned, and please don't get frustrated with me...  I'll be bugging everyone.  I'm not much of a forum guy, so this is all new to me.  Not quite sure of the etiquette.

Hi, folk!

I am in the same situation you tell us. It is a pity we have lost the intelligent harmonizer that we have used in our previous GR 30, GR 33, VG 88, VG 99 etc.

I still hope that ROLAND will take notice of this and include the harmonizer in the next 1.03 firmware update. :)
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: kenact on February 17, 2012, 07:31:35 AM
Quote from: gafaell on February 17, 2012, 04:17:11 AMI still hope that ROLAND will take notice of this and include the harmonizer in the next 1.03 firmware update. :)

And the arpeggiator!

But I'm not holding my breath. :(
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: Jim Williams on February 17, 2012, 12:52:53 PM
I don't see Roland making another update and if they did I believe the GR-55 lacks the processing power for an intelligent Harmonizer.
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: DeRigueur on February 17, 2012, 01:57:51 PM
Anybody know exactly which processor the gr-55 has?
There are pictures which refer to a chip with  "WSP" on it.
Promotional literature says ESC2.
The question is, is it the most recent Roland chip?
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: paults on February 17, 2012, 05:49:10 PM
One way to play something with harmonies would be to have the normal guitar play the melody, and have a COSM harmony part.  You can assign pitch bend to the pedal - and you could have it do major third at toe down, minor third when you pull it back.  Or, you may prefer  shifting the harmony part down,  instead of up.
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: gumtown on February 17, 2012, 07:44:31 PM
Quote from: DeRigueur on February 17, 2012, 01:57:51 PM
Anybody know exactly which processor the gr-55 has?
There are pictures which refer to a chip with  "WSP" on it.
Promotional literature says ESC2.
The question is, is it the most recent Roland chip?
I saw somewhere that the ESC2 is the latest, same as the GT-100.
The GR-55 seems to have some CPU horsepower behind it, as i can run 2 instances of the editor at the same time, one reading bulk patches, one writing bulk patches, and playing the GR-55 tones and changing patches, and it never flinched or glitched.
The WSP is what the GT-10 has, but these chips are separate from the CPU chip, the GT-10 has a universal one that works either 2 x 32bit or 1 x 64bit.

Looking at this photo of inside the GR-55, the DSP chip sure looks like a WSP
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi877.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab331%2Fgumtownbassman%2FDSC00756.jpg%3Ft%3D1298788866&hash=8a396638f688be2766c1b26f4d3dc28eee1f10f2)
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: DeRigueur on February 17, 2012, 09:46:47 PM
Quote from: gumtown on February 17, 2012, 07:44:31 PM
I saw somewhere that the ESC2 is the latest, same as the GT-100.
The GR-55 seems to have some CPU horsepower behind it, as i can run 2 instances of the editor at the same time, one reading bulk patches, one writing bulk patches, and playing the GR-55 tones and changing patches, and it never flinched or glitched.
The WSP is what the GT-10 has, but these chips are separate from the CPU chip, the GT-10 has a universal one that works either 2 x 32bit or 1 x 64bit.

Looking at this photo of inside the GR-55, the DSP chip sure looks like a WSP
Hey Gumtown,
Do you have a GT-10 to see if it's the same model?
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: kenact on February 18, 2012, 05:28:12 PM
Quote from: paults on February 17, 2012, 05:49:10 PM
One way to play something with harmonies would be to have the normal guitar play the melody, and have a COSM harmony part.  You can assign pitch bend to the pedal - and you could have it do major third at toe down, minor third when you pull it back.  Or, you may prefer  shifting the harmony part down,  instead of up.

The problem is you'd have to know if you want a maj or min against each note you're playing. The attached image is from the GR-33 owners manual and does a good job of explaining the difference between transposition & harmony.
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: Player99 on February 18, 2012, 06:03:06 PM
Quote from: kenact on February 18, 2012, 05:28:12 PM
The problem is you'd have to know if you want a maj or min against each note you're playing. The attached image is from the GR-33 owners manual and does a good job of explaining the difference between transposition & harmony.

That would only apply to chords though?

If you wanted to have a single saxophone play a 3rd or a fifth over your single note lead it would work?
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: kenact on February 18, 2012, 08:27:15 PM
Quote from: Player99 on February 18, 2012, 06:03:06 PM
That would only apply to chords though?

If you wanted to have a single saxophone play a 3rd or a fifth over your single note lead it would work?

No, the GR-55 does not have that capability, it cannot be set to play a 3rd or a 5th, it can only be set to transpose.  In other words, you can set the GR-55 to play a note 4 steps above the note you are playing.

Here's the way it's explained in the GR-33 Owner's Manual as it relates to the diagram I posted:

The difference in the results of the two methods is shown by
the arrows in the figure.
The harmonies produced by parallel transposition may
sound odd at times. The place on the scale where this
problem occurs depends on the key, whether the key is major
or minor, the interval between the main melodic line and the
harmony, and so on.
The GR-33's Harmonist uses what it knows about the current
key—which is already set in the patch—to continuously
adjust the harmonic intervals between the guitar sound and
synth sound, or between the 1st and 2nd tones, creating
pleasing harmonies.
The GR-33's Harmonist also fully supports chord play. This
means that complex chords can be created by playing a
simple three-note chord, greatly reducing the chances of
fingering mistakes during difficult performances.
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: Player99 on February 18, 2012, 09:39:40 PM
That's why my Boss Harmonist has a dial with all the keys, major and minor on it that has to be manually set for the key the song is in.
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: dogbite on February 19, 2012, 03:27:27 PM
Yes, the the intelli p feature on the Nova system works pretty well. You choose the Key and the Diatonic Mode then the interval desired.  So if a note should be  a minor 3rd, instead of a major to remain in key, it makes that adjustment.  I will just continue to use that.  it's just I'm trying to pare down my rig, not build it up.  Oh Well...  But so far the Gr-55 is working well, I just need to understand more about it.

Thanks for the help.
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: gumtown on February 19, 2012, 10:47:14 PM
Quote from: DeRigueur on February 17, 2012, 09:46:47 PM
Hey Gumtown,
Do you have a GT-10 to see if it's the same model?
Sold my GT-10, but still have the GT-10B, which is exactly the same inside, apart from the extra plug-in XLR board.
Here is the GT-10B WSP chip
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi877.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab331%2Fgumtownbassman%2FDSC01045.jpg&hash=9d6529a9b440977a4738d3aeb7175a73820e55e9)

and here is the GT-10B CPU chip
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi877.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab331%2Fgumtownbassman%2FDSC01047.jpg&hash=8db9aad8952a0c0fe435f3fdb0e3ca7f626ad4cb)

the other chip in the GR-55 is a 2MBx16 x 4layer RAM chip (8MB total)
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: DeRigueur on February 20, 2012, 08:33:01 AM
So the GT-10 has a R03679367
and the GR-55, a R05011845

Hmmm, not sure what to make of this.
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: aliensporebomb on February 20, 2012, 06:20:45 PM
What is in the 99?  That has the best pitch transposition in a consumer based guitar unit that I have personally experienced.
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: Bill Ruppert on February 20, 2012, 06:50:52 PM
Steve knows but if not I have the chip info here somewhere for the VG-99!
Yes it is the best yet.

Chips might get faster but it is the code written that is the bottom line.
You can have the best tools but if you don't play it right its not great.
Same with code.
People forget that and look to new chips....

Quote from: aliensporebomb on February 20, 2012, 06:20:45 PM
What is in the 99?  That has the best pitch transposition in a consumer based guitar unit that I have personally experienced.
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: gafaell on February 21, 2012, 04:33:29 AM
Quote from: Bill Ruppert on February 20, 2012, 06:50:52 PM
Steve knows but if not I have the chip info here somewhere for the VG-99!
Yes it is the best yet.

Chips might get faster but it is the code written that is the bottom line.
You can have the best tools but if you don't play it right its not great.
Same with code.
People forget that and look to new chips....

Any news about a new GR 55 firmware update v 1.03 ?

As it happened with VG 88 v-2, a nice firmware update added new features and effects to the unit. I hope the harmonizer and arpeggiator will come into this update, and other suggestions mentioned in this forum.  ;)
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: Elantric on February 21, 2012, 10:16:10 AM
QuoteAny news about a new GR 55 firmware update v 1.03 ?

Summer 2012

QuoteWhat is in the 99?  That has the best pitch transposition in a consumer based guitar unit that I have personally experienced.

I would reserve that opinion until you audition a Tyler Variax.

In my arsenal - my Tyler Variax has the best non warbling DSP based Alt Tuning effect.

Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: VSR on June 22, 2012, 04:18:01 AM
Quote from: gumtown on February 17, 2012, 07:44:31 PM
I saw somewhere that the ESC2 is the latest, same as the GT-100.
The GR-55 seems to have some CPU horsepower behind it, as i can run 2 instances of the editor at the same time, one reading bulk patches, one writing bulk patches, and playing the GR-55 tones and changing patches, and it never flinched or glitched.
The WSP is what the GT-10 has, but these chips are separate from the CPU chip, the GT-10 has a universal one that works either 2 x 32bit or 1 x 64bit.

Looking at this photo of inside the GR-55, the DSP chip sure looks like a WSP
(https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi877.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab331%2Fgumtownbassman%2FDSC00756.jpg%3Ft%3D1298788866&hash=8a396638f688be2766c1b26f4d3dc28eee1f10f2)

Does anyone know the Mhz of gt 10 or gt10b?
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: Litesnsirens on June 22, 2012, 08:06:54 AM
How timely to see this thread, I was just playing with the pitch shifter a few days ago.  It will play the shifted note along with the original note, so for lack of a better description it will harmonize it just doesn't do it intelligently.

For me this pretty much renders it unusable and I think it would be great if Roland would add this feature in a firmware update even better if it comes in the update that's just around the corner :-).
They have a boss pedal that does this so it should be easy enough.  As far as DSP goes, the unit tells you if you've added too much into the chain for it to handle, I would hope a unit this powerful could handle a decent guitar patch with intelligent harmony.

I'm loving this unit more each day and can't wait for the update. I mentioned in another thread that after connecting it to the computer it messes up some of my controller assignments by reversing them, hopefully this bug will be fixed.
In the GR librarian manual it says not to disconnect the Gr-55 while the librarian software is still running so I heeded that advice but it still happens. 

Aside from what I have mentioned and the already hinted at fixes that update will address I can't think of anything off the top of my head that I would ask for.  Damn solid piece of gear.
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: gafaell on June 22, 2012, 08:20:52 AM
Yes, i totally agree with you. An intelligent pitch shifter is really necessary in this unit.

I hope this will come in the next 1.50 upgrade.

After using GR 30, VG 88 with the harmonizer function it has become an important effect for lead guitars, brasses and piano harmonies.

:D
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: mbenigni on June 22, 2012, 08:42:52 AM
Quote from: gafaell on June 22, 2012, 08:20:52 AM
Yes, i totally agree with you. An intelligent pitch shifter is really necessary in this unit.

I hope this will come in the next 1.50 upgrade.

After using GR 30, VG 88 with the harmonizer function it has become an important effect for lead guitars, brasses and piano harmonies.

I doubt Roland could tackle intelligent harmonies for guitar/COSM with just a firmware update (there are probably hardware/ design limitations barring this) but adding a MIDI harmonizer for the PCM stuff ought to be feasible.  It's simple integer math when you come right down to it; the biggest challenge would be designing the UI and accounting for patch settings in the underlying data structures.
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: Jim Williams on June 22, 2012, 10:41:56 AM
I think that any update will be things that you don't notice like bug fixes. You wont see any additional effects or anything like that. I would think it would safe to say the only thing you will see is some new parameters for piezo guitars. I think the processor is capable of some new additions but Roland won't give us anything like that.
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: Litesnsirens on June 22, 2012, 07:07:58 PM
I'm trying to figure why they couldn't implement an intelligent harmoniser.  The unit already does "unintelligent" harmonies in whatever interval you choose.  What would be so difficult in adding the code to make the harmony follow a chosen modal scale.  I can't figure why that would take a hardware change.
The GR-55 doesn't have hardware that can hang with the Boss PS6 stomp pedal?
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: tekrytor on June 22, 2012, 09:21:18 PM
I agree that should be possible, BUT, it would require some additional memory which is probably scarce. I suspect they used most of the available memory to program what features we now have. More features would require optimization of the existing functionality in code while reducing code size, which is the artistry of advanced programming skills and would cost time and money that could be spent on new products. Of course most of us would prefer an update though. I paid Roland for updates before and would do so again for useful new features, like more loop time. It can be done.


Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: piriolirio on June 23, 2012, 12:31:38 AM
It's only a software problem. The unit is capable of pitch recognition and polyphonic transposition of each string. Pitch recognition + variable transposition with software is possible. It's just a question of implementing a function, allowing the user to set key and scale for each patch. It can be done easily, please Roland do it! We really need it!
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: Christoplast on June 23, 2012, 06:49:08 AM
If you have access to Kontakt, you can use the harmonisation functionality in that, driven by MIDI from the GR-55. You choose key, scale, type of harmony (1-3-5, 1-3-6, etc.) and then just play. It works reasonably well for me, but, of course, you are using samples rather than the GR-55's own voice(s). Maybe some generous time-rich person will be kind (or crazy) enough to provide multisample sets of selected GR-55 patches :D
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: Litesnsirens on June 23, 2012, 07:34:26 AM
Even if it does turn out to be a resource taxing implementation, they can still easily offer it.  The unit already tells you if you have over-taxed it when creating a patch by displaying a DSP overload message.  The simple answer was that I had to go a different route to achieve the sound I was looking for.

I'd happily do the same if I added an intelligent pitch shifter and got an overload message.  If I had an amp plus OD I would just dump the OD and try to get close with a more overdriven amp tone.  Or maybe dump a compressor or EQ.

I don't see how it would be that much more code to add the integers required to just have the already existing pitch shifter follow a scale.  I think this unit is pretty good at maximizing the DSP power it has, either that or it has more than we give it credit for.   

If I consider the patches I have created that use all 8 ctrl assignments to do things like changing both PCM tones and the guitar model (ie; acoustic to strat) etc etc. one of the following scenarios must be true because it can switch all these things instantly, much faster than if you switch between two patches.
Either the unit has enough DSP to have 4 PCM patches and two different guitar models loaded into memory along with all the other effects you have in the chain OR Roland has a smart enough scheme to load them up on the fly as you step on the control switch. 

Either way it demonstrates enough efficiency or power to handle somehing like intelligent pitch shifting and fairly easily too. 

On a side note I have read on here requests for an arpeggiator too, I'd also love to see it.  This is my first guitar synth and it never occurred to me before but I love the idea. 
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: gumtown on June 24, 2012, 02:00:09 PM
Quote from: Litesnsirens on June 23, 2012, 07:34:26 AM
Even if it does turn out to be a resource taxing implementation, they can still easily offer it.  The unit already tells you if you have over-taxed it when creating a patch by displaying a DSP overload message.  The simple answer was that I had to go a different route to achieve the sound I was looking for.
I have not seen this on any Boss/Roland gear, i thought this was only a feature of the latest Line6 PODs??
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: Litesnsirens on June 24, 2012, 03:22:09 PM
I just got my GR-55 on June 2, so I haven't had it long but I was trying to put together a patch and a DSP overload message popped up as I was trying to load  another effect.  I have an HD500 so I just took it in stride as it popped up.  It has only happened once and I'm not sure how I got there.  If it happens again or if I can recreate it somehow, I'll take a picture of the display and post it up.
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: aliensporebomb on June 24, 2012, 06:17:53 PM
Never seen it on the VG-99 either and I've literally tried to push it until it explodes in many cases.

Interesting.
Title: Re: Guitar Harmonies on GR-55
Post by: Litesnsirens on June 24, 2012, 06:52:36 PM
The VG-99 is a beast though... Good luck pushing it to its limit.