GP-10 - Alt tuning issue only certain pickups , guitars or is it different GPs ?

Started by Brak(E)man, July 11, 2016, 04:21:41 AM

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Brak(E)man

I have the same issue on all my fretted GK guitars.
I mainly use baritone tuned to A , reverse Nashville , 4 th and octave up
Octave down , 12 string with unison 4ths and 5 ths & bass octaves on 5th and 6string

Really bad warbles with chords not with single notes
I haven't had that with any of the vgs
Same guitars with and without the Fernandes sustainer on

Since some doesn't seem to have a problem and others a huge problem
with the alt tuning I'm starting to wonder what that might
be related to. It's obviously a GP related thing but why some
and some not esp since I've never had this problem before GP


Anyone up for trying to shed some light to what's going on ?

swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

carlb

I've found that by playing the fretless model, I get a lot less warbles. I think it has to do with removing the note attack.

I'm also guessing that a bit of delay will help too. No dry, just 100% delay, at whatever milliseconds you can tolerate (or less). I'll try this tomorrow, but I hope you'll try it to.
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

Elantric

QuoteI have the same issue on all my fretted GK guitars.
I mainly use baritone tuned to A , reverse Nashville , 4 th and octave up
Octave down , 12 string with unison 4ths and 5 ths & bass octaves on 5th and 6string

Really bad warbles with chords not with single notes
I haven't had that with any of the vgs
Same guitars with and without the Fernandes sustainer on

When I use the VG COSM Modeling gear, My genuine guitar strings stay in traditional standard tuning. and I dont have problems

I know a few folks use VG 13 pin systems with non traditional tuning for their  genuine guitar strings ( Stick Players enjoy the VG-99)  - but there are reports of GP-10 not workng with guitars whose  genuine guitar strings are in baritone tunings

Brak(E)man

I only have my guitars tuned in standard tuning as well
The tunings described are cosm alt that I'm having problems with
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

carlb

There was not any reduction that I could tell by introducing a time delay. Darn.

The better each string's signal separation, the less warble will be introduced. Getting two or three notes is confusing the GP-10's string input transforms.

There is likely a large mechanical vibration component to the inter-string crosstalk for the piezo bridge pieces, likely through the bridge saddle. This could be measured by taking a D or G string off, strumming a chord, and observing the missing string's output.

I'll guess that well-designed electromagnetic hex pickups have less string-to-string crosstalk than do the piezo bridge-piece pickups. That would mean few warble complaints come from GK pickup users.

A piezo hex pickup improvement might involve vibration isolation between saddle elements. Or an amplification scheme to subtract out a fraction of the signal from the strings on either side to allow a null of the crosstalk signals. (Would work well enough.) The latter seems much more feasible.

I'll also guess that the Antares boxes use their autotune correction to simply cover up the warbles.
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

Brak(E)man

All my gk guitars have magnetic hex PUs
But as said no problems with the VG series
only GP
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Brak(E)man



This type of playing with this tuning
and this guitar with or without sustainer
has never been a problem before city the vgs
and the trig on the osc synth agh !!!

Recorded October 6th 2014
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Brak(E)man

An update
I got a 24-13 pin box for my G707 recently
And it has the same problem with alt tuning as the rest of my guitars.
So GK1 converted to Gk2 mode, Gk2a external and internal kit, GK3 external
all smells the same
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

aliensporebomb

Quote from: Brak(E)man on July 23, 2016, 02:13:54 PM


This type of playing with this tuning
and this guitar with or without sustainer
has never been a problem before city the vgs
and the trig on the osc synth agh !!!

That is totally weird.  But if you use standard tuning and then use the pitch transposer to pitch down it's okay?  This is only on GP-10 not VG units?
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Elantric

Quote from: Brak(E)man on October 19, 2017, 06:59:58 AM
An update
I got a 24-13 pin box for my G707 recently
And it has the same problem with alt tuning as the rest of my guitars.
So GK1 converted to Gk2 mode, Gk2a external and internal kit, GK3 external
all smells the same

Yet my fretted 13 pin guitars in standard A-440Hz tuning have no issues

Brak(E)man

Quote from: aliensporebomb on October 19, 2017, 08:53:20 AM
That is totally weird.  But if you use standard tuning and then use the pitch transposer to pitch down it's okay?  This is only on GP-10 not VG units?

Only on GP-10
Not on VG 8 , 88 or 99
I've tried and used version of your very pitched patches on vg99

Fretted or fretless works fine even with sustainer cranked all the way up and in fifth mode

only chords on GP-10 are affected , can't let them ring
single notes ( or even two notes ) octave or fourth , fifths up or down are ok

I'm not sure what you mean by using the pitch transposer ?

swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

chrish

I wonder if some people are more attuned to digital artifacts and GK setup anomalies than others.

Perhaps the gp10 is more sensitive then the VG units.

You obviously have very good ears for Discerning frequency shift.

I didn't notice the digital artifacts that were being put out by my roland GS 6 until a local Pro classical, jazz, Rock guitarist used my rig at an open mic and pointed the artifacts out to me.

I also didn't notice the magnetic pickup flux influences on the GK hex pickups, due to close proximity, until Elantic pointed out that they do interact.

And most recently I didn't notice the high frequency roll-off when a magnetic pickup is Y split and loaded. I just recently tested that and sure enough it's almost imperceivable but it is there.

One thing that I am noticing now is that on two of  my hex guitars, the open low E and A Strings will oscillate when certain notes are being played in the middle octaves. This leads to false triggers on the midi translation and the GR300 but I don't notice the effect on the VG 99 or the VG 8 guitar models.

I didn't figure this out until I got the GR 300 and noticed that the string sensitivity LED lights where lighting along with low volume synth trigger droning of the A and E strings.

Dampening those strings solves that problem.




Brak(E)man

I'm thinking that one last thing to do is to try with one or two different GPs.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Brak(E)man

Quote from: aliensporebomb on October 19, 2017, 08:53:20 AM
That is totally weird.  But if you use standard tuning and then use the pitch transposer to pitch down it's okay?  This is only on GP-10 not VG units?

If I tune with the alt tune like FI, reverse Nashville , nashville , up octave , down a fifth , like 12 string with fourths or fifths or double course or octaves , the chords warble. ( single string works )
Same tunings , same guitars as with the Vgs and it's only GP-10 which warbles.
( I guess strumming might work but that's not my thing normally anyw)
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

alexmcginness

The alt tuning with the GP 10 is fine on all my guitars except one. I get warbles only on the a string open first, second and third frets. Cant figure it out. All my other guitars with a gk 3 on them are fine. It has to be guitar related.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Brak(E)man

Quote from: alexmcginness on October 20, 2017, 08:18:57 PM
The alt tuning with the GP 10 is fine on all my guitars except one. I get warbles only on the a string open first, second and third frets. Cant figure it out. All my other guitars with a gk 3 on them are fine. It has to be guitar related.

all my guitars have the same problem fretted or fretless , seems weird if it's guitar related.
Have you tried a different GP ?
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

sixeight

Maybe some of you should record the warble and post it here. It could be certain models, chords or guitars that cause the anomalies. By posting an example it may be easier to compare and recreate the issues.

Brak(E)man

Quote from: sixeight on October 21, 2017, 02:42:00 AM
Maybe some of you should record the warble and post it here. It could be certain models, chords or guitars that cause the anomalies. By posting an example it may be easier to compare and recreate the issues.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=18614.msg133449#msg133449
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

alexmcginness

Quote from: Brak(E)man on October 20, 2017, 11:27:28 PM
all my guitars have the same problem fretted or fretless , seems weird if it's guitar related.
Have you tried a different GP ?
I have 2 GP 10s. The guitar that has the tuning warbles is a Traveller escape MKII. My three strats and my Flying V work fine without warbles.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Brak(E)man

I have 8 different guitars with different GKs ,  they all warble about the same if I play chords as in the example above. Even worse if there's live sound and not only headphones.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

carlb

Brak(E)man, for your GK magnetic hex pickup guitars:

1) What measures have you tried to cut down on the warbles?
2) Listening through acoustic isolation headphones (to isolate the acoustic sound from the guitar), how bad are the warbles?

I've just had an RMC setup re-worked with Roland GK-KIT-GT3 internal kit. Having my other main guitar reworked now.

Very little of the warbles. Mostly just the acoustic beats that no one can do anything about. I do hear a few warbles for harmonics, but not many. With a bit of careful playing and planning the harmonics to avoid any where warbles just happen, even that's not bad.

For my setup, hex pickup screws pass through two mini-surgical tubing spacers, to get the string gap correct. The rubberized tubing likely helps with stray vibrations. Also, I do deaden the strings past the bridge.

ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

Brak(E)man

Quote from: carlb on October 30, 2017, 03:37:55 PM
Brak(E)man, for your GK magnetic hex pickup guitars:

1) What measures have you tried to cut down on the warbles?
2) Listening through acoustic isolation headphones (to isolate the acoustic sound from the guitar), how bad are the warbles?


Everything but...
They all work with all the VGs

Some things are unplayable
Listen to https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=18614.msg133449#msg133449
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

carlb

Aside from the warbles, that's a beautiful sound.

Two things that might help: deaden strings  behind the nut and bridge; and acoustically deaden the hex pickup.

For my guitars the second is done by mounting screws running through small surgical tubing, lifting the hex pickup away from the guitar top.

Aside from the fifth added interval, is there an alt tuning on your patch? I'll try that with my guitars see if they do better for warbles with the GP-10.
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

Brak(E)man

Quote from: carlb on November 01, 2017, 03:09:07 AM
Aside from the warbles, that's a beautiful sound.

Two things that might help: deaden strings  behind the nut and bridge; and acoustically deaden the hex pickup.

For my guitars the second is done by mounting screws running through small surgical tubing, lifting the hex pickup away from the guitar top.

Aside from the fifth added interval, is there an alt tuning on your patch? I'll try that with my guitars see if they do better for warbles with the GP-10.
It's played on a Steinberg so no nut bridge string overlap.
But it's the same on all guitars with or without heads.

Sometimes I use octaves on string 5-6
Or reverse Nashville in baritone
Sometimes unison 12 string
The same result with all sustained alt chord tuning
QuoteIf I tune with the alt tune like FI, reverse Nashville , nashville , up octave , down a fifth , like 12 string with fourths or fifths or double course or octaves , the chords warble. ( single string works )

and the same result with all different GKs
QuoteSo GK1 converted to Gk2 mode, Gk2a external and internal kit, GK3 external
Fretted or fretless



swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

chrish

I don't know the structure of the gp10 so I'm kind of shooting in the dark here.  I read somewhere that placing a noise suppressor after the Reverb effect can create digital artifacts.

Do the wobble still occur with a dry alternate tuning signal where the signal does not pass through any of the DSP effects?