VG-99 - Checking out the ol' VG-99 rig again this weekend ...

Started by carlb, February 02, 2018, 03:26:55 PM

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carlb

I've made a few changes since swapping a VG-99 gig-rig out for a GP-10 gig-rig.

Biggest:
1) Swapped Ghost piezo hex pickups to internal mag GK kit.
2) Process output with a BBE Sonic Stomp before the FRFR PA speaker.

My tone with GP-10 is now the best it's ever been for "all things modeled." Jeez, the acoustic steel and nylon sounds are excellent.

BUT ...

1) I understand the VG-99 is near warble-free for alt-tunings, when paired with a GK hex.
2) I miss the 99's ring-modulator for whacked mixolydian jazz-fuzion solos or backing riffs. (Hint: TUNE the modulator to your KEY!!!!!)
3) I miss the TWO PARALLEL MODELING PATHS, which create patch options the GP-10 can't.
4) I miss the 99's direct MIDI I/O, which I can hook directly to the Morningstar MC6 for killer patch and assigns control.

The questions I'm having:

A) With a BBE Sonic Stomp (and/or maybe an Aural Exciter?), can I get close to the acoustic and amp tone ... fidelity (??) that I'm getting with the GP-10?
B) Are the gains in "warble-resistant" alt-tunings, plus all the other great VG-99 advantages, worth any residual tone differences?

So, time for some experiments tomorrow.

Question for the stalwart VG-99 users: what do you like for processing after the VG-99, but before your FRFR amplification?
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

Headless68

I have the 99 doing all guitars / amps / effects - just use iPad / midiguitar2 for piano's & synths
having said that, I am tempted by a strymon big sky, but that would just be stereo out from 99 into the strymon then into power amp - so quite easy to integrate


sixeight

Quote from: Headless68 on February 03, 2018, 09:00:48 AM
I have the 99 doing all guitars / amps / effects - just use iPad / midiguitar2 for piano's & synths
having said that, I am tempted by a strymon big sky, but that would just be stereo out from 99 into the strymon then into power amp - so quite easy to integrate

The reverbs are not that great on the VG-99. You could consider the new Helix FX. The new reverbs are supposed to be stellar. And you could improve the amp sounds by loading IR's in the Helix. Price will be about the same as the Strymon.

mooncaine

I use my VG weekly these days for signup jams -- it's like Karaoke for players. You look at a Google spreadsheet with a list of songs, and put your name in for, say, lead guitar on White Room. You have one rehearsal, maybe, and play the show. Next week, different theme, different songs by different bands.

Most shows, I bring the VG, a Steinberger Spirit, and nothing else. This rig easily handles everything these signup jams offer. VG goes into my Mustang III amp, not because it sounds better, but because everyone else involved (esp. sound man) is comfy with miking an amp, but less so with guitarists going direct into the board. At such shows, they're usually saving the 2 available directs for acoustic guitars.

The 2-channel nature of VG-99 helps a lot. Tomorrow I'll play a handful of Fleetwood Mac songs and will cross-fade from modeled 12-string acoustic to modeled electrics for a few of these. I use delays in VG, but not much reverb. I dial it back so my guitar cuts thru the mix better.

I don't always get space on stage for pedals, but it's super handy to have the FC300, because I can unplug its single cable anytime, no audio burps, and move it out of the way till it's my turn to play again.

If it had an effects loop, I'd bring a pedal or two, but without that, no thanks. At rehearsal, it's great to have the unit up where I can adjust stuff without bending over. I just wish I had a tough, lightweight bumper-shell around my VG so I could put it on the floor, or on top of an amp, without worrying it would be killed if it got knocked over.

As much as I love the VG, I'm starting to leave it home if my song list doesn't call for special powers like tunings and acoustics. If it's simpler stuff, I bring a GT-1 and use batteries at the show. But I prefer the VG because it helps me match the sounds the other players want to hear, and of course I love it because it gives me very nearly the whole range of electric and acoustic guitars in rock history, as well as the power to innovate. OMG, the fun I've been having at home with Virtual Jeff, using it to control wah, reverb, filter.... I'm off today; I'm gonna go some of that this afternoon!

Headless68

@ Sixeight - had a helix - reverbs were nice - not as good as Strymon (in my opinion) - the Eventide H9 is close, but I still hear a difference

alexmcginness

There are far more advantages FOR using the VG-99 than there are drawbacks.

-Waist high tweaking, ( this is a biggie for me )  hence the unit isn't on the floor where the punters and vocalists can step on it or spill drinks in it. AND you're not bending over constantly tweaking the floor unit while performing making you look like a fitness instructor.
-dual signal paths
-warble free alt tunings
-multiple outs
-lightweight for the carryon bag.
-big LCD display
-D-Beam
-direct patch buttons
-10 separate GK settings locations
-can hook a midi pedal up to it for patch changes like an FC-50 for lightweight air travel instead of the FC-300 if needed.

The VG-99 is still the King of processors for stage work IMO. If they had only put an FX loop in it you'd have it all. That is its only drawback but the workaround is to model the boutique pedals into it using HAR-BAL. I modeled my Guyatone TO-2 tube overdrive into it and my American Standard Strat as well and now I travel with the 99 and a Traveller Escape MKII with a GK-3 on it and leave the good guitars and pedals at home.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

sixeight

Quote from: Headless68 on February 06, 2018, 12:04:22 PM
@ Sixeight - had a helix - reverbs were nice - not as good as Strymon (in my opinion) - the Eventide H9 is close, but I still hear a difference

Line6 released new firmware with updated reverbs yesterday.

Quick sample: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/new-helix-hx-reverbs-sloppy-wet-samples.1909766/

Programming patches is more complicated with the VG99/Helix combi, but the Helix does have a good MIDI implementation, so most of it can be done from the Helix. I mainly use the guitar modeling and poly fx from the VG-99, though some patches are 90% VG-99 and the Helix just for delay and reverb.

Smash

You not tempted to go JTV with Helix to get alternate tunings and modeling and lose the VG99?

admin

#8
Quote from: Smash on February 08, 2018, 07:18:42 AM
You not tempted to go JTV with Helix to get alternate tunings and modeling and lose the VG99?

For me, The VG-99 remains far more powerful than Variax  / Helix

Variax  / Helix CAN not do the following:

* String splits with separate tones on low E, A , and separate tones on D,G,B,e,

* B Bender  / Pedal Steel guitar emulation

* Guitar to MIDI


With a JTV-69 with GK-3, then you can use both VG-99 and Helix to the full extent ;)




sixeight

Quote from: Smash on February 08, 2018, 07:18:42 AM
You not tempted to go JTV with Helix to get alternate tunings and modeling and lose the VG99?

I probably will eventually. Maybe a Variax Standard first. But my main axe is actually a semi-acoustic guitar (Crafter TMVS - it's in my avatar) The acoustic sounds I get from that guitar are better than any Variax acoustics demo I have ever heard. It is more direct and the feel of the guitar is also right. The GK3/VG99 adds the electric models.

After getting the GP10, I played my VG99 less. The amp modeling is a lot better on the GP10. Now I am returning to the VG99 with the Helix as the amp modeling is even better imho.

If I would have waited with the purchase of the Helix, I probably would have bought the HX effects. But I am happy with the full Helix now.

Smash

Out of interest have you checked out the 3 Sigma audio Acpustic IRs? I thought the Martin 45 was quite impressive and you could load to Helix

sixeight

Quote from: Smash on February 08, 2018, 08:06:42 AM
Out of interest have you checked out the 3 Sigma audio Acpustic IRs? I thought the Martin 45 was quite impressive and you could load to Helix

Not yet. So far I am still exploring what's in the box and I am playing with some free IRs. I also created my own. There are quite a few rabbit holes with this type of gear....

Headless68

also the Helix can't do the huge lush pads that the VG99 can do - I tried hard using 4 paths with shimmers & pitch shifts but the Helix was nowhere near the 99
For 'normal' amps / pedals it was great and using it live dropping patches in and it auto re-sequencing the rest is a real time saver - on the down side the helix is pretty huge on the floor and I was really worried about the cables out of the back of it getting damaged
I agree with Alex that I like having the VG at the side of me for tweaks or even to to clearly see what settings i'm on

My band has a new (really nice) PA so Im going to try front of house again next with the 99

only other change to my rig (last week) is my M-Audio exp pedal on the black box snapped - not sure how - so I replaced it with a Roland EV5

carlb

Forgot to post my findings!


First: Set PU type to a GK mag-hex type. Doesn't seem to matter much which.

Second: Lower the individual hex string gains to mid-thirties or so. Otherwise, string levels peg too easily.

Next: start goofing to see if a decent steel string can be achieved. Short answer: Yes!
The trick for me was to put a pretty sharp, deep dip (Q=2) in at 4kHz, another broad one (Q=0.5) at perhaps 800 Hz. After that, salt/pepper with bass/treble/body to taste.

Next up will be a simulated nylon string attempt. I use one least a few times a gig for latin jazz, so an absolute must.

Question: on the steel string simulation patch the hex pickup set to "System" sounds correct, but for the nylon simulation it's best specific to the patch. Too muddy vs. too bright if keeping to one vs. the other on both patches. So the choice at the system level must "system" or "patch" exclusively, right? Can't have some as "system" others specific to their patches?

So ... I'll probably need to go with GK setting "by patch," then dig through individual patch settings to see where that's hidden. Probably answering my own question here, but comments, experiences, suggestions welcome.
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

Smash

Nylon? I ported Autanas amazing GP10 Nyrac patches to VG99. How he came up with them I do not know but if you can better them I'll eat my FC300!!

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=17984.0

alexmcginness

Quote from: Smash on March 05, 2018, 10:43:15 PM
Nylon? I ported Autanas amazing GP10 Nyrac patches to VG99. How he came up with them I do not know but if you can better them I'll eat my FC300!!

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=17984.0

Ill run the conversions thru HAR-BAL and see how close you got them. They sound great in the demo you did.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.

Smash

I used boss editor offline and simply cloned the settings. My ears weren't involved!

admin


alexmcginness

Quote from: Smash on March 06, 2018, 08:17:16 AM
I used boss editor offline and simply cloned the settings. My ears weren't involved!

They sound great. I just mentioned that I would run them thru HAR-Bal to see if theres any frequency variations between the two sound engines one old and the GP 10 being newer. The VG 99s extra eqs could certainly help if there is any difference in that area.
VG-88V2, GR-50, GR-55, 4 X VG-99s,2 X FC-300,  2 X GP-10 AXON AX 100 MKII, FISHMAN TRIPLE PLAY,MIDX-10, MIDX-20, AVID 11 RACK, BEHRINGER FCB 1010, LIVID GUITAR WING, ROLAND US-20, 3 X GUYATONE TO-2. MARSHALL BLUESBREAKER, SERBIAN ELIMINATOR AMP. GR-33.