Antares Luthier kit with Quicco Sound mi.1 Bluetooth MIDI

Started by cags12, October 12, 2017, 03:37:22 PM

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cags12

admsustaniac - That is an old procedure that is no longer needed. From the time the application was a Java applet. With the "new" ATG utilities that is not needed anymore and everyone has Luthier Status.

admin

Quote from: cags12 on October 16, 2017, 03:14:45 PM
admsustaniac - That is an old procedure that is no longer needed. From the time the application was a Java applet. With the "new" ATG utilities that is not needed anymore and everyone has Luthier Status.

I hope this is true - last time I was attempting to run the Antares Software Manager app was a year ago, and I needed to phone henrik @ antares  on a Saturday to get access to the advanced Luthier settings screen

Do you have a screen shot of where settings for  bridge type, distance, scale length, string sensitivity, etc are in the "new" Antares Software Manager app ??

cags12

Quote from: admsustainiac on October 16, 2017, 03:16:23 PM
I hope this is true - last time I was attempting to run the Antares Software Manager app was a year ago, and I needed to phone henrik @ antares  on a Saturday to get access.

Believe me. it is True.

Look at the manual for the ATG Settings Manager and see all the old hidden options for Luthiers.
http://autotuneforguitar.invisionzone.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=51

admin

Do you have a screen shot of where settings for  bridge type, distance, scale length, string sensitivity, etc are in the "new" Antares Software Manager app ??

Ok - I see I have the beta of the Antares Settings Manager  - henrik sent me this a month ago

But with a warning from Henrik

Quote".  Please do keep in mind that these do have some bugs that you may encounter:"


You can actually update the boards without installing this into an instrument.  You will need to hook up the following cable to the board:

8-Pin din connector
LED assembly (just to make sure the board turns on)
7-pin connector wire assembly between the Tone pot and the DSP (To turn on the board)
Battery cable (if you are using an AT-200B breakout box, then you don't need this as the power will be supplied via the 8-pin cable)

Connect like normal (use either AT-200B or Antares ATG MIDI Breakout cable) and you will be able to update the software.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/cbaz1tc5i666uua/ATG_Utilities_Beta_PC.zip?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y768tjxftvofby4/ATG_Utilities_Beta_Mac.zip?dl=0



cags12

Quote from: admsustainiac on October 16, 2017, 03:20:04 PM
Do you have a screen shot of where settings for  bridge type, distance, scale length, string sensitivity, etc are in the "new" Antares Software Manager app ??

Open that link and you will see the screenshot. Sorry I was lazy to create the screenshot.

whippinpost91850

I was able to run the software manager yesterday without any kind of log in

cags12

Quote from: whippinpost91850 on October 16, 2017, 03:22:58 PM
I was able to run the software manager yesterday without any kind of log in

It's what I've been saying. No log in.

The Log in requirement was needed in the old version of the Settings manager. Not anymore.

admin


whippinpost91850

I only updated my ATG-1 yesterday. Does this mean there is no rush to do my pickup settings for my install kit. I can do it through the settings manager?


admin

Quote from: whippinpost91850 on October 16, 2017, 03:28:45 PM
I only updated my ATG-1 yesterday. Does this mean there is no rush to do my pickup settings for my install kit. I can do it through the settings manager?

at this hour  - this appears to be correct.

I was still using the now dead Java version of ATG Manager as my reference

whippinpost91850


admin

QuoteBut is there a software update for the install kit????

not that I'm aware of

As a reminder, the Antares Luthier Install kit already includes ALL "optional upgrade packs" that cost money for owners of  Peavey AT-200 guitar.

the issue was that with the old java based ATG settings app - you had to be logged in to make changes to the  settings for  bridge type, distance, scale length, string sensitivity, etc,

that apparently is now changed.

as long as you currently have access to the app named "ATG Settings Manager.exe" from 2017 - you should be fine.

(looks like this)


Majiken

I passed the beta settings manager on some months ago, guess I didn't do it in an access-friendly fashion....
Take what you need, put back a bit more, leave the place behind you better than it was before :-)

www.majiken.rocks

GuitarBuilder

"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

whippinpost91850

Thanks.. I'll check it out. How do I do that on the install kit

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: whippinpost91850 on October 17, 2017, 08:35:54 AM
Thanks.. I'll check it out. How do I do that on the install kit

Here are Henrik's instructions:

QuoteYou can do this without actually installing the kit.  Here are the things you would need to connect to the DSP board.

1. Solder up the 8-pin connector with its wiring harness and connect this to P4 (MIDI).

2. Connect the 7-pin wiring harness to the tone pot and P8 (TONE).

3. Connect the LED wiring to P11 (LED).

4. Connect the battery to P7 (BAT).  **PLEASE NOTE** If you are using a Peavey AT-200B Breakout box, then you don't have to connect the battery as the AT-200B does supply power to the board.

You can now power on the DSP by pushing in the Tone pot.  After that, please connect you MIDI Y-cable to the 8-pin and connect to the ATG Software Manager.

"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

whippinpost91850


cvsucu

Guys, this thread was about Quiccosound with Luthier kit and it was hijacked into many other topics (some of which I am at fault for as asking other questions, such as related to batteries  :-[ )

Christian and GuitarBuilder (Peter, I understand?) - the 2 x 5 pin connectors available for external connection of Quicco sounds really great/optimal - but I too don't want to drill any other wholes in the already very hollow guitar.
So I will continue to explore the current solution by you Chris.
I didn't have much time lately, as I used my spare to develop the iPhone Midi Designer Layout for Thomas, who is very particular about details.
I will share once I have a new version ready.

Chris, I'll come back to you when I attempt one of your solutions to make the G10 work with this setup (Henrik suggested your point 1 and 3), but I personally like the sound of your option nbr 2 (the one you called "the nicer"  :) )
But this would require, again drilling, for giving external access to a switch, as small as it may be, correct? Hm... I am not sending the guitar to Vienna for this, nor do I want to take the chance of touching the any wood work my self on a guitar that has cost me a fortune in time, energy and money :-)

However, all these being said, the main reason for my preference of the switch idea is - if I understand right, both the other two (as well as my current, interim situation) keep the Quicco ON all the time while playing with ATG, which dramatically drains the power.
I can share that it only seems to last for about 30-60 min now, after this Quicco install.
Which is extremely low.
Can't wait to try other, much stronger battery solutions.

Chris, if the Quicco can be "switched off (power being cut from being supplied to it) do you still have a concern on connecting the AT-200B to the 8 PIN port as creating any damage or unwanted interference?

If I take the chance and drill the hole myself for adding a second MIDI port, for Quicco's MIDI OUT port and provide power to it - is this the ultimate solution here?
Such as - no more worries about Quicco draining battery power when not needed (such as only relying on Fret Control or Encoders to control ATG), interference/power overlap when deciding to use AT-200B box.
Would my (and potentially your too) issue with the G10 be gone as well?
Greedy here - would this potentially work with the CME Widi-Bud connection as well ?(which I haven't even read about - just relying on your efforts to get it cleared with the supplier  ;)) Meaning that no other device would ever be required, since Quicco would do both the job of MIDI control from my iPhone AND connect the ATG to Windows for Software Manager needs (as rare as they may be for me)?
If Yes/Yes/Yes - thus the potential name as "the ultimate solution" - could you give me the necessary wiring in this case?

Would I have to replace the 8 PIN connector with a 5 pin one? I suspect not, especially if I want to use the 200B box, right?

admsustainiac, thanks for the battery inputs.
I had the same concern when I picked that Yoobao bank - the fact that the 9V supply will depend on the device connected and it will not be stable and/or that it will be noisy - which is what you have unfortunately confirmed now.
Anyway, it's on its way now - no big damage, only 25 USD.
The last one you suggest is one that I looked at as well. I chose the Yoobao due to being smaller/lighter/flatter.... but if that's the size/weight it takes to have a good battery/play time without being wired, I will order it.
I am still surprised that the Big Joe is so highly recommended by Thomas (as lasting virtually forever), yet it can only last for as little as Chris thinks.

Cheers and will be back when I have more updates,
Cristian

cags12

Quote from: cvsucu on October 17, 2017, 11:47:37 PM

Chris, I'll come back to you when I attempt one of your solutions to make the G10 work with this setup (Henrik suggested your point 1 and 3), but I personally like the sound of your option nbr 2 (the one you called "the nicer"  :) )
But this would require, again drilling, for giving external access to a switch, as small as it may be, correct? Hm... I am not sending the guitar to Vienna for this, nor do I want to take the chance of touching the any wood work my self on a guitar that has cost me a fortune in time, energy and money :-)
You can combine option 2 and 3.
Option 3 can be implemented independently only as a solution for the G10 issue for the time being. This requires no routing at all. I advise you strongly to go ahead with this now.
Option 2 can be implemented later only for switching ON/OFF  the QuiccoSound (disconnecting the Orange wire [MIDI OUt+]) - The switch can be installed on the back plate as your other switch, so no drilling into the wood.
Anyway, this will be up to you in the end.

Quote
However, all these being said, the main reason for my preference of the switch idea is - if I understand right, both the other two (as well as my current, interim situation) keep the Quicco ON all the time while playing with ATG, which dramatically drains the power.
I can share that it only seems to last for about 30-60 min now, after this Quicco install.
Which is extremely low.
Can't wait to try other, much stronger battery solutions.

WHATT? - that does not add up. The Quicco (Bluettoth LE stands for "Low Energy") is rated at 25mW @ 5v or 5mA. ATG alone already consumes 250mA. 5mA more is almost insignificant. Also, the MIDI OUT+ line only provides ~22mA max.

I have not tested battery autonomy myself as I am focused on other things now. Could you test again with fresh batteries? Duracell or Energizer.

I wonder if you have parasitic power draw in your already complicated wired guitar. If you have a Multimeter you can measure the difference in current draw with the Quicco plugged and unplugged. Also you can measure if while ATG is OFF, you still read current draw.

Quote
Chris, if the Quicco can be "switched off (power being cut from being supplied to it) do you still have a concern on connecting the AT-200B to the 8 PIN port as creating any damage or unwanted interference?
No, in that case all should be OK.

Quote
If I take the chance and drill the hole myself for adding a second MIDI port, for Quicco's MIDI OUT port and provide power to it - is this the ultimate solution here?
Such as - no more worries about Quicco draining battery power when not needed (such as only relying on Fret Control or Encoders to control ATG), interference/power overlap when deciding to use AT-200B box.
If you define your ultimate solution as being able to easily remove completely the Quicco, then yes. Particularly for me, the ultimate solution is to make ATG Settings Manager work wirelessly and being able to use a backup wired solution (Including a switch as discussed before).

Quote
Would my (and potentially your too) issue with the G10 be gone as well?
The issue you currently have with the G10 does not have anything to do with the Quicco, none whatsoever.
You may or may not experience wireless interference but we do not know yet. In such case, changing the G10's channel will most likely solve this.

Quote
Greedy here - would this potentially work with the CME Widi-Bud connection as well ?(which I haven't even read about - just relying on your efforts to get it cleared with the supplier  ;)) Meaning that no other device would ever be required, since Quicco would do both the job of MIDI control from my iPhone AND connect the ATG to Windows for Software Manager needs (as rare as they may be for me)?
If Yes/Yes/Yes - thus the potential name as "the ultimate solution" - could you give me the necessary wiring in this case?
This is possible, I have been talking with CME Widi-Bud's main developer and he seems willing to help. Leave this with me and I will report back. Still, as I mentioned before, having a Backup wired connection is recommended (enter the switch again).

No special wiring would be needed for the Widi-Bud.

Quote
Would I have to replace the 8 PIN connector with a 5 pin one? I suspect not, especially if I want to use the 200B box, right?
No need for this.

However, If you ever consider installing two external DIN connectors as your "ultimate solution". I would keep one 8 PIN connector wired as per the installation manual and add a second 5-Pin connector wired as you have already done.
Why?
The 8-Pin connector would work for the full functionality of the AT-200B and also as MIDI IN for the Quicco.
The 5-Pin connector will serve as MIDI OUT for Quicco.

Note: Just so you know, the default pinout of pin 2,4 and 5 of the 8Pin DIN, corresponds to the standard MIDI in. For this reason you can use it as I am describing.

cags12

Quote from: cags12 on October 18, 2017, 02:31:07 AM
WHATT? - that does not add up. The Quicco (Bluettoth LE stands for "Low Energy") is rated at 25mW @ 5v or 5mA. ATG alone already consumes 250mA. 5mA more is almost insignificant. Also, the MIDI OUT+ line only provides ~22mA max.

I wonder if you have parasitic power draw in your already complicated wired guitar. If you have a Multimeter you can measure the difference in current draw with the Quicco plugged and unplugged. Also you can measure if while ATG is OFF, you still read current draw.


I made my own measurements, here are the results:

ATG in Standby (just powered on, not playing):     ~185mA    (Measurement taken on Battery+)
ATG in Standby + mi.1 (sending Active Sense):      ~191mA    (Measurement taken on Battery+)
mi.1 (Sending Active Sense and CC):                     ~6.5mA     (Measurement taken on MIDI+)

Based on these values, battery should last almost the same as before.

Use this values for you to compare.

cags12

Re the Settings Manager via Bluetooth:

I have managed to connect to the Settings Manager via Bluetooth. I used a hack (using MIDI-OX) to spoof the data of the "Globals" tab which uses the Long SysEx messages that the Widi Bud is currently incapable of transmitting. By doing this spoof, I managed to simulate and ultimately bypass the initial long negotiation of the Settings Manager with ATG. After this I was able to access all the features of the "Presets" tab via Bluetooth. All the operations in this tab use small enough SysEx messages and work 100% fine with the Quicco and Widi-Bud.

Note: The Globals tab CANNOT be used during this.

This is just a very convoluted workaround in case no other better solution is achieved.

Stay tuned for my progress with CME's main developer on this.

vtgearhead

It's good to hear that the vendor is engaged.  Too many companies building MIDI adapters regard long sysex messages as a corner case that can be ignored.

cvsucu

Hi Christian,

Thanks again for all the inputs.

QuoteATG in Standby (just powered on, not playing):     ~185mA    (Measurement taken on Battery+)
ATG in Standby + mi.1 (sending Active Sense):      ~191mA    (Measurement taken on Battery+)
mi.1 (Sending Active Sense and CC):                     ~6.5mA     (Measurement taken on MIDI+)

Based on these values, battery should last almost the same as before.

Use this values for you to compare.

I will try to measure as you suggest and report back.
Can you please tell me exactly between which points to insert the multimeter set to mA?
Where do I find Battery+?
MIDI+ is Orange or Brown?

I will also sacrifice a set of 4 batteries to time how long they last precisely.
It could have been only an impression that with Quicco ON the time is much shorter.

QuoteYou can combine option 2 and 3.
Option 3 can be implemented independently only as a solution for the G10 issue for the time being. This requires no routing at all. I advise you strongly to go ahead with this now.
Option 2 can be implemented later only for switching ON/OFF  the QuiccoSound (disconnecting the Orange wire [MIDI OUt+]) - The switch can be installed on the back plate as your other switch, so no drilling into the wood.

I am thinking to go with your 9-lug Stereo Jack solution for the G10 AND with a hybrid one for the Quicco: WDYT about installing the second/additional 5 PIN female connector on the Back Plate instead of on the guitar? I measured and, if stretched to the max (without breaking it) the Quicco can reach with the MIDI IN bud inserted in the default 8PIN connector and the new 5 PIN connector mounted on the back plate. This way I don't have to drill the wood.
It doesn't look as neat, but it could work?
One more reason for not wanting to do it on the guitar is that, in my particular case, having studied the cavity in detail, the only place I could go with the new whole is towards the Strap pin... and this is where I am hoping my Jam Stack will come when available and I don't want to risk having to change things again then.
Let me know what you think about this.

Would you be kind to try and search for this 9-lug 1/4 jack on Amazon and point me to it? I tried, but couldn't find one or not sure if they would fit (found some for Fender).
I can order from the link you sent me initially, but so much easier from Amazon for me.

One last question here, with this replacement, is there any downside? Will mono jack cables, including my Samson wireless transmitter still work?

..............
Here is the switch you asked me about in as close pics as I could take:






cags12

Quote from: cvsucu on October 19, 2017, 08:47:50 PM

Can you please tell me exactly between which points to insert the multimeter set to mA?
Where do I find Battery+?
MIDI+ is Orange or Brown?

Battery+ is the red wire coming form the battery box.
MIDI+ is the Orange one.

Measuring current is done by connecting the multi-meter in series. So, you will have to figure out a way to connect the multi-meter on those points. Google how to do it first.

Quote
I will also sacrifice a set of 4 batteries to time how long they last precisely.
It could have been only an impression that with Quicco ON the time is much shorter.
I hope that is true.

Quote
I am thinking to go with your 9-lug Stereo Jack solution for the G10 AND with a hybrid one for the Quicco: WDYT about installing the second/additional 5 PIN female connector on the Back Plate instead of on the guitar? I measured and, if stretched to the max (without breaking it) the Quicco can reach with the MIDI IN bud inserted in the default 8PIN connector and the new 5 PIN connector mounted on the back plate. This way I don't have to drill the wood.
It doesn't look as neat, but it could work?
Yeah it would work, not neat though and be careful to not stretch much the cable as it could break.


Quote
Would you be kind to try and search for this 9-lug 1/4 jack on Amazon and point me to it? I tried, but couldn't find one or not sure if they would fit (found some for Fender).
I can order from the link you sent me initially, but so much easier from Amazon for me.

These all the sources I have found this specialized Jack:

http://www.mouser.ie/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=161-610D3-Evirtualkey11380000virtualkey161-610D3-E               
http://www.banzaimusic.com/Kobiconn-161-610D3-E.html                  
http://store.calradstore.com/30-385.html   
https://www.thomann.de/ie/fishman_schaltbuchse_acc_pbr_9pj.htm?ref=search_rslt_fishman+jack_107083_1 (This one is a bit pricey for carrying the Fishman brand)

Quote
One last question here, with this replacement, is there any downside? Will mono jack cables, including my Samson wireless transmitter still work?
No downside at all. Everything will work as normal + the G10.