External Expression Pedals

Started by Elantric, January 23, 2008, 06:34:25 PM

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Elantric

There are many pedal options besides the Roland offerings.
http://expressionpedals.com/how-expression-pedals-work

http://expressionpedals.com/list-of-expression-pedals

http://www.strymon.net/strymon-tech-corner-1-anatomy-of-an-expression-pedal/


Roland Expression Pedal



But any Expression with a 10K Linear POT wired like this works as a Roland EV-5 substitute


And not all Expression Pedals are identical - for example here is how Line-6 and Fractal expect their Expression pedals to be wired



But the main important thing is Roland / Boss Gear expects a Roland EV-5 Expression Pedal as most units lack a Calibration for External Expression pedal-intention is to force you to buy the official Roland Pedal


Another global brand from Italy is Proel (who actually make the EV-5  for Roland)

and Bespeco

http://www.bespeco.it/product.php?lingua=en&mac=6&cat=118

http://www.bespeco.it/product.php?lingua=en&mac=6&cat=116





Learn to Program Roland/Boss Processors
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=88.0


Also Roland FV-500H/FV-500L Volume pedals can work as Expression pedals
FC-500H manual
https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/FV-500H_OM.pdf
Must use a TRS cable

"To use the FV-500H as an expression pedal, you will need an optional connection cable (stereo 1/4" TRS phone plugs at both ends)."

Pedal volume pot in Roland EV-5 pedal is special taper 10kB pot.
Original part code for ordering from nearest Roland authorized service is :
13229702 EWH4JA230B14 10kB S

Roland EV-5 SERVICE NOTES
https://www.synthxl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Boss-EV-5-FV-60-Service-Manual.pdf

vermelho

I have a Roland EV-10 expression pedal, but couldn't find a way to make it work. Maybe the specified EV-5 is fundamentally different in producing voltage out. But does anyone have experience with the EV-10 after all it does say "expression out" - maybe mine is just busted?
Roland VG-99 (doh!), Roland VG-8, Godin LGXT, Godin Nylon Multiac, Boss RC-50.
1980's Gibson LP w/ custom shop Roland install, BC-13, various period synth gear.
Digitech GSP-2101 (gathering dust), Roland JC-77 amp,
Fender pre-CBS super amp. Eastman jazz, Lowden, Taylor 12str, Adamas acoustics..

Elantric

#2
Never heard of a Roland EV-10 - but if you use a 1/4" TRS (stereo) cable it should work the same as a the Roland EV-5
http://www.bossarea.com/other/ev10.asp


A lot of pedals and rack mounted units have an input for an expression pedal like the EV-10. The expression pedal will enable the player to adjust one paramter of the unit it is connected to. In the case of a FT-2, Dynamic Filter, it will turn the pedal into a proper wah pedal. If connected to a PH-3, Phase Shifter, the expression pedal will adjust the rate control.

The EV-10 was replaced by the Roland EV-5 very early so there aren't that many EV-10s around. It is very solid as it is made by the same heavy-duty diecast aluminum housing that's on the BOSS FV-200 and FV-100. The Roland EV-5 is for comparison made of plastic. There's a minimum volume adjustment knob that allows the user to select the degree of effect and volume desired at the minimum point. Must be set correctly for EV-5  to function 


Specifications
Main Volume: pedal: 10kOhm

Minimum Volume: 50kOhm

Jacks: EXP, Out

Controls: Main Volume (Pedal), Minimum Volume

Dimensions: 110(W) x 65(H) x 324(D) mm (4-1/4" x2-1/2"x 12-3/4")

Weight: 1 kg (2.2 lbs)


I'll uploaded an EV-5 Schematic  - this should help

VR1 = the Main Treadle Pot

VR2 = the Side mounted "Minimum Volume" Pot - it could be omitted - just tie VR-1 "low" directly to the GND / Shield



Like this:


Parts List
Tayda P/N: A-1982 - 10K Ohm Linear Pot
Tayda P/N: A-1983 - 50K Ohm Linear Pot
Tayda P/N: A-5081 - 1/4" Stereo Plug
Tayda P/N: A-5163 - 1590A Enclosure
2-Conductor Shielded Cable

taydaelectronics.com




vermelho

Thanks!  :D The schematic was overkill for what I needed to know... But thanks, I figured it out after puzzling over that for a moment.
My solution was... use a STEREO phono cable - I'd somehow assumed it was just a mono line. The EV-10 will function the same as an EV-5 but has a female socket instead of the hard wired cord/plug.   Whoo-hoo, that adds some fun!  The wah is really configurable and realistic! (unlike other digital setups I've tried).  A quick run through the configuration shows that this could have some great custom uses. Hey, just the pedal volume is great.
Maybe I'll be able to hold off on buying a FC-300 for a little while (I think a RC-50 will come first, since I don't have anyone to jam with and I can't accompany myself very well...)
Roland VG-99 (doh!), Roland VG-8, Godin LGXT, Godin Nylon Multiac, Boss RC-50.
1980's Gibson LP w/ custom shop Roland install, BC-13, various period synth gear.
Digitech GSP-2101 (gathering dust), Roland JC-77 amp,
Fender pre-CBS super amp. Eastman jazz, Lowden, Taylor 12str, Adamas acoustics..

Elantric

#4

dead_lizard

#5
Wait til you try out the VG-99's "Strange Bend" patch!!!

vanceg

#6
Hey I'd like to caution everyone about some potential pitfalls connecting non-Roland expression pedals to the FC-300.  The FC-300 is expecting a specific resistance to be presented by your expression pedal.  If the pedal that you have differs from the resistance that the Roland expression pedals, then your pedal may not work properly. You may find that moving the pedal from full "heel" to "toe" position only produces a small change in parameter values in teh VG-99/FC-300, or that you get no value change from some portion of the pedal movement.

It is bizarre and highly unfortunate that the FC-300 does not allow you to calibrate it's expression pedal inputs to work with third party devices. In fact, two of my 7 roland pedals were out of whack and even THEY don't work with the FC-300.

I also noted that none of my M-audio expression pedals will work with the FC-300.  I'd need to put a new pot in them to get them to work...and that's not even worth it. 

What might be cool is if we could find a collection of third party pedals that do work with the FC-300 and list them here. Right now, I'm having to use all Roland pedals.

Vance

Elantric

#7
Expression pedal Schematics for what you need are here:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=33.msg109#msg109


I often rebuild Ernie Ball Vol pedals into what we need.  (10k Linear pot )  -

When I worked at EB I could not convince them to make a EV-5 compatible pedal (dumb)

The M-Audio EXP-1 Expression pedal is supposed to have a switch on the bottom  to make it Roland compatible 






On M-Audio EX-P  - for improved Roland compatibility,  replace the 1K ohm resistor with a straight wire. and set bottom Switch to "Other"
M-Audio EX-P


Roland EV-5


EV-5 is 10K and EX-P is 12K

Quote from: kimyo on June 02, 2021, 09:58:25 AM
i have an m-audio ex-p and cannot get the full range out of it.  the low end never gets below 27 (on a scale of 0 - 100), regardless of how the knob is adjusted.

Which is typical

There is a mod to correct that

Bypass R2 (1k resistor) with a straight wire

= full EV-5 treadle sweep


vanceg

What I ended up doing was just getting a bunch of Roland pots, intended for replacement use in their volume pedals and using them in some of my other pedals. 
Thanks for the specs!

Vance

GinoxCronx

#9
Hi I'm about to buy a vg-99 and I wonder which is the cheapest expression pedal compatible with the vg-99, since I reach my budget limit I´m planning to buy  a "Rocktron Hex Expression Volume Pedal" couse is more solid, Would this pedal work with the vg-99?
I´m akso wondering if a crybaby Wha pedal can bu used as expression pedal. Thanks

RoC1909

I bought a Roland EV-5 for around 60 bucks. You could probably find them on the Internet for cheaper. I have had pretty good luck with it so that might be something you could look at.

RoC

feloniouspunk

#11
Lots of Gear. :)

vanceg

It looks like those Maudio pedals have 12K pots in them whereas my fv-50 has a 20K pot. That might explain why I can't get the full range out of the M-Audio pedal.....

Quote from: sustainiac on February 15, 2008, 02:06:44 PM
Volume pedal Schematics for what you need are here:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=33.msg109#msg109


I often rebuild Ernie Ball Vol pedals into what we need.  (10k Linear pot )  -

When I worked at EB I could not convince them to make a EV-5 compatible pedal (dumb)

Elantric

#13
Its odd you are using a FV-50 as an expression pedal for the FC-300

Two versions are available

FV-50H = High Impedance = 500K ohm ( for Guitar)
http://www.bosscorp.co.jp/products/en/FV-50h/index.html

And FV-50L = Low Imedance 20K ohm ( for Keyboards)
http://www.bosscorp.co.jp/products/en/FV-50L/index.html

Both are stereo volume pedals, intended to go in the audio signal path


Neither are recommended nor designed to be used as a VG-99 Expression pedal.

The Larger Boss FV-500 H and L models have dual pots for volume and expression. Exp pots are 10K linear, so it can work as a 10K Expression pedal.


The Roland  EV-5 is the Expression pedal Roland intended us to use with VG-99 / FC-300  extrernal Expression pedal Control Jacks.

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=54

It is 10K control via TRS Phone plug
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33.0;attach=821;image
Tip = Control element - sweeps from 10K to Ground

Ring = fixed 10K reference for control circuit

Ground = Electrical shield to minimize noise

I'm surprised you can get the FV-50L to work as an expression pedal with the FC-300 
The EV-5 schematics are pretty clear on the circuit required. (see below)

The VG-99 / FC-300 Owners Manuals are quite clear - Use the EV-5, which is a different beast than  the FV-50L.( I use a FV-50H on my stompbox Pedal Board)


I have three  EV-5 pedals, and they are each 10K linear.(actually measure 8.9K ohm)

I use them all the time with my Line6 gear and VG-99  - plug and play.

I understand the  Line 6 Expression Pedal is wired differently and uses a mono TS plug connection

Fullcompass sells them for $43
http://www.fullcompass.com/product/249896.html

vanceg

#14
Quote from: sustainiac on June 21, 2008, 06:13:42 AM
Its odd you are using a FV-50 as an expression pedal for the FC-300

Two versions are available

FV-50H = High Impedance = 500K ohm ( for Guitar)
http://www.bosscorp.co.jp/products/en/FV-50h/index.html

And FV-50L = Low Imedance 20K ohm ( for Keyboards)
http://www.bosscorp.co.jp/products/en/FV-50L/index.html

Both are stereo volume pedals, intended to go in the audio signal path


Neither are recommended nor designed to be used as a VG-99 Expression pedal.


I'm quite aware that it's "odd" but I have been using them as control pedals for at least 3 years. Worked with a variety of devices including other devices from Roland, Behringer, Rolls and others. 

Quote from: sustainiac on June 21, 2008, 06:13:42 AM
I'm surprised you can get the FV-50L to work as an expression pedal with the FC-300 
The EV-5 schematics are pretty clear on the circuit required. (see below)


I modified them with pots from the FV-50H

Quote from: sustainiac on June 21, 2008, 06:13:42 AM
The VG-99 / FC-300 Owners Manuals are quite clear - Use the EV-5, which is a different beast than  the FV-50L.( I use a FV-50H on my stompbox Pedal Board)

I have three  EV-5 pedals, and they are each 10K linear.(actually measure 8.9K ohm)



$43 x 4 is more than I wanted to spend considering I own 5 of the EV series volume pedals and 6 of these M-Audio control pedals. And, from what I saw of the Line6 pedal, it's not any more sturdy than the Roland EV series...likely less so.

I really don't like the feel of any of these pedals so if I do go ahead and upgrade, I will buy several proper E.Ball volume pedals and put different pots in them.  I was looking for the cheap way to get the M-audio pedals to work better (since they seem to feel so much nicer than my Roland EV series volume pedals...which are now pretty beat up).

Thanks for your thoughts.

Vance

Elantric

>I modified them with pots from the FV-50H

Hmm - thats rather odd direction to go. The FV-50H is designed for high impedance gutars, and the internal pot in the FV-50H is much much higher than 10K. I recall its more like 200k to 500k and its a logarithmic audio taper.

vanceg

Quote from: sustainiac on June 23, 2008, 06:53:41 PM
>I modified them with pots from the FV-50H

Hmm - thats rather odd direction to go. The FV-50H is designed for high impedance gutars, and the internal pot in the FV-50H is much much higher than 10K. I recall its more like 200k to 500k and its a logarithmic audio taper.

Yeah, but it worked great.  And was "free" relative to having to buy 4 overpriced control pedals ;-)

That said, they've more or less worn out by now. Looking for a new solution. Maybe I do need to just buy some of those which Roland recommends and replace them in 3 years when I wear them out too.

Like you said - plug and play - and that's worth a lot.

Vance

Elantric

#17

vanceg

Thanks. 

I've been watching over a dozen and have offers our on 6 right now.

Vance

Elantric

FWIW - the complete VG-99 MIDI Implementation is here:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1056.0;attach=1419

I translated it from Japanese.

Re FC-300 MIDI Implementation - the details are in the rear sections of the FC-300 Owners manual

The FC-300 has no preassigned MIDI "CC" numbers - mapping to functions.

Predefined MIDI system exclusive messages = yes

Predefined  MIDI CC# = no  - its user assignable using  two methods.

Program FC-300 MIDI CC# assignments using the VG-99 Editor,
set it here:


or stoop down and program directly on the FC-300. - both methods work - and nothing is gained using one method or the other.


embers

Another option is to use a midi pedal. I just set up my GR-20 pedal to act as the expression pedal for my VG-99, using the CC settings.

UncleRage

Quote from: vanceg on June 21, 2008, 12:49:43 AM
It looks like those Maudio pedals have 12K pots in them whereas my fv-50 has a 20K pot. That might explain why I can't get the full range out of the M-Audio pedal.....


Same problem here.  I picked up an M-Audio EX.P on Friday.  Best I can get is 34%-100%.  Missing the full range is going to land that attached to a different piece of gear as of tonight...
Up the irons.

vanceg

Quote from: Lil_Cthulhu on October 25, 2010, 05:09:54 AM
Same problem here.  I picked up an M-Audio EX.P on Friday.  Best I can get is 34%-100%.  Missing the full range is going to land that attached to a different piece of gear as of tonight...

I ended up just swapping out for a bunch of EV-5s.  I did swap the pots on two of the M-Audio units...but after I had bought the pot, figured out how to swap the parts out and did the work, it 'cost' me a few hours and I decided not to do that for all 5 pedals...so I just went with EV-5s.

Then I sold the FC-300 and now use a different MIDI pedal which allows me to calibrate the control pedals I am attaching to it.

UncleRage

Quote from: vanceg on October 26, 2010, 10:53:01 PM
...Then I sold the FC-300 and now use a different MIDI pedal which allows me to calibrate the control pedals I am attaching to it.

Which pedal did you opt for and what are your overall impressions? 

I've been on the FC-300 fence for a couple of weeks now, so I'm curious to hear from those on both sides; especially from one that's leapt over.
Up the irons.

Vic1iful

The Fractal site says it i made for axe FX. does the pedal work with anything midi?