Looper decision getting agravating

Started by Mrchevy, May 02, 2012, 07:30:50 PM

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shawnb

Quote from: VariousArtist on October 11, 2012, 11:19:35 AM
I want portability, ease of use, something 'immediate'... allowing me to quickly setup and muck about.  Having fun but being productive at the same time.  I don't really have needs for storage or USB connectivity or effects, and although these would all be welcome they are more for bonus. 

If you have no need for the storage or connectivity, EVERYTHING I've read, plus extensive input from my buddy who swears by the Rang, all signs point to the Rang being the superior looper for live improvisation & experimentation.

The one nit about the latest generation of Rang is that the roller volume is no longer included, you need to purchase it separately.  My Rang-junkie buddy actually prefers the older model solely for this reason - he thinks the roller is the absolute best for easy built in volume control.  (I found it difficult, but I guess it's one of those things where, once you're used to it, is awesome!) 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Hopkins

Quote from: shawnb on October 12, 2012, 09:33:37 AMEVERYTHING I've read, plus extensive input from my buddy who swears by the Rang, all signs point to the Rang being the superior looper for live improvisation & experimentation.

Tell us the signs, Shawn!  From my reading of the manual of the 'Rang, and extensive use of the RC-300, I do not see it like this.  I still only see trade-offs depending on individuals' preferences:

What the 'Rang does but the RC-300 does not:

  • It's compact.  And slightly cooler because it is from a "boutique" company.
  • Decay.
  • Fade in.
  • The choice of serial or parallel mode is made depending on which loop is recorded first, rather than a "setting" (quite a neat idea I think).
  • A fourth loop, if you can manage to surrender a fourth of the five buttons.
  • Serial-sync - one loop playing all the time, the other loops in serial mode.

What the RC-300 does but the 'Rang does not:

  • Start recording or playback of any loop at any point even in quantised/synchronised mode.  No need to wait until the start of a loop.  Shorter loops can be recorded after longer loops.
  • Have quantised loops (i.e. with lengths of fixed multiples of the length of a measure/bar) of different lengths, all looping without gaps.  Syncopation heaven.
  • Independent Undo/Redo for each of the three tracks (although the "hold play for 2s" default action for Undo/Redo is not ideal).
  • The monolithic footprint does at least mean you get 8 buttons and one expression pedal.
  • Time stretching of loops with pitch correction (not the best pitch correction I have heard, mind).  This can be in response to tap tempo input.

For the RC-300 I have ignored the "extras", i.e. effects, drum patterns, storage and MIDI outs because they seem to be out of scope in the current discussion.  (Although they might all genuinely be advantageous for some players only interested in live, improvisational looping.)  For both units, additional controls can be added via external foot switches.

I feel like I'm "defending" the RC-300 here, as if I don't like someone "attacking my baby", but really it's not that!  I just don't like it when things get pigeon-holed for no reason other than, well, than because human beings love to pigeon-hole things!  Looking at both of those lists, each device offers *major* advantages in different ways.  Some people are going to insist on Decay.  'Rang win.  Others will want to make extensive use of Undo/Redo on all tracks.  RC-300 win.  Some people will really like the possibilities of the conveniently accessible serial-sync mode.  'Rang win.  Others will be wanting to record a long, meandering soundscape first, and then fire off a couple of shorter yet synchronised loops inside it.  RC-300 win.  These are all potential requirements very much in the domain of the "live looper".

Syph

Well said Hopkins!

The only thing I feel should be pointed out is that you can get serial-sync on the Rc300 if you set it up right, though it is not as "epic" as on the rang. The rang will give loops 1, 2a, 2b and 2c. The RC will give loops 1, 2a and 2b.

A passing point you made me realise though... Because of the RC300s' work around to get serial-sync happening you can actually get a little flexibility here, in that you can have 3 parallel loops AND serial-sync on the same patch/performance with out changing any settings. I would be curious to hear if this can be done with the rang in the same fashion i.e. mid performance without stopping any loops.

Hmmm... It's getting late here so my apologies if that isn't the clearest point I have ever made.... Not that looping can become complicated with all this darn terminology.... Nooo.....

Hopkins

Yes, serial sync behaviour is possible as you say on the RC-300, although it isn't as neat.  (Actually, I had added that note to the "Feature Requests" section some time ago, but there has been such an avalanche of interesting posts to that thread that I haven't had time to reply yet!)

If I recall correctly, the 'Rang needs to "change modes" between sync and serial-sync mode.  However, I do not know if this function is assignable to another foot controller, or if it can be changed on-the-fly.  (Can a 'Rang owner could clarify please?)

I do like the way that the 'Rang will allow you to change between certain modes depending on which loop is recorded first (instead of hitting a mode change button) - although perhaps they could have extended this functionality somehow so that there is never a need to change modes!  As it stands, you need to change between the option of serial and serial sync, or sync and free mode.

Mrchevy

Hey guys, I would be happy to try and verify this question but I am very green behind the ears when it comes to loopers. Are you asking if can you have 3 loops going and copy those to a 4th loop mid performance to free up the first 3 loops? If you could explain you question and what you are trying to do as if speaking to an idiot ;D, I might be able to get you an answer.
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

godinbill

I just received a  GR-55  &  RC-300 LOOPER ,   Do I need a MIDI Cord to have them work together and have sound coming out of a my AMP ? 

godinbill

Syph

Thanks Mrchevy, lets see if can phrase this nice and clean....

Typically loops are either running in serial or parallel, so either have a verse, chorus, bridge, OR having all potentially playing at the same time so you can bring layers in and out of a constant A section.

The Rang and RC300 offer the ability to run a bit of both modes, providing a "floating loop" running independently of the other loops playing in serial mode. This means we can record a drum beat to loop 1, and keep that playing constantly through the performance. Mean while we will use the other loops to get a verse/chorus/bridge effect. So loop 2 becomes the verse, loop 3 becomes the chorus etc....

An example of the work flow would be... (All loop numbers are examples here, sorry I don't know the Rang well enough to use the proper loop numbers...)

Record a beat to loop 1. This will keep playing regardless of what the other loops will do.

Hit record on loop 2, this will start loop 2 recording and can put a verse riff here.

Hit record on loop 3, this will stop loop 2 and start on recording a chorus on loop 3.

Hit play on loop 2, this will stop loop 3 (chorus) and will start playback of loop 2.

Hit stop on loop 2, this will stop loop 2.

At this point all that will be left playing is the drum beat on loop 1.

Sorry for the long winded bit there, just trying to be clear.

From what we know of the Rang, this can be achieved by starting on a certain loop number (not sure which one).

What we want to know is can swap between serial, parallel and the above (serial/parallel) on the fly without stopping all your loops and starting again?

Or, in essence, are you stuck with one mode of operation once you have started recording, or is there a way to change it mid performance?

------------

Godinbill, you will want to run your audio from guitar ----> GR -----> looper ----> amp. If you want your GR tempo follow your looper tempo you will need a to run midi from RC midi out ----> GR midi in. Make sure the RC is set to midi master (default behaviour) and set the GR to midi slave, or AUTO (I don't know the GR units myself, but I would assume that is the default behaviour as well. Just make sure it isn't se to to INTERNAL or REMOTE..... Please someone correct me if I am wrong with that!)

Mrchevy

#57
Quote from: Syph on November 12, 2012, 05:07:29 PM

An example of the work flow would be... (All loop numbers are examples here, sorry I don't know the Rang well enough to use the proper loop numbers...)

Record a beat to loop 1. This will keep playing regardless of what the other loops will do.

Hit record on loop 2, this will start loop 2 recording and can put a verse riff here.

Hit record on loop 3, this will stop loop 2 and start on recording a chorus on loop 3.

Hit play on loop 2, this will stop loop 3 (chorus) and will start playback of loop 2.

Hit stop on loop 2, this will stop loop 2.

At this point all that will be left playing is the drum beat on loop 1.

I did a run thru as described above and it appears to function as you described. You start your beat on loop 3 called the MASTER. Loops 1 & 2 can then be recorded in equal or multiples of the Master loop.

Quote from: Syph on November 12, 2012, 05:07:29 PM

What we want to know is can we swap between serial, parallel and the above (serial/parallel) on the fly without stopping all your loops and starting again?

Or, in essence, are you stuck with one mode of operation once you have started recording, or is there a way to change it mid performance?

I believe this is possible if I understand correctly. You have to change the BONUS button (as they call it ) functions. It appears these various functions can be changed while the looper is going but I have not messed with these enough to know exactly how they all work together.  I have seen demos where they stack loops, then copy them to a different loop, then erase the loop copied from, and record a new loop on that one, all while loops are playing. Also, one of the BONUS buttons can be assigned as a 4th loop. YES, THAT'S IT!! , think of the BONUS functions as ASSIGNS in Boss/Roland lingo. Here is a link to boomerangs demo page with videos showing the various functions. Maybe these will answer you questions more thoroughly than I can. Let me know if there is a specific thing you want me to try and I will do my best. I've had my Rang a while now but haven't got to deep with it yet.

http://boomerangmusic.com/Links.shtml
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need

Syph

Thanks Mrchevy, I have been going through a bunch of those vids and just soaking up ideas and goodness....nom nom nom.... so thanks for the link! After delving quite deep into the RC300 possibilities (not to mention getting stuck in my own little rut!) its really fun to see the other options out there again. The demo with the "free" sync settings, and the ambient kind of stuff got me thinking some fun thoughts that I haven't had in a while!

I may take you up on that testing offer, but not till i get my head around the 'Rang a bit better first!

Mrchevy

Yes, the RC300 is a looper beast. I just decided, as I stated in an earlier post, that after the GT10 and GR55 Roland learning curve :o, when it came to a looper, I was pretty mentally brain dead by that time, and the Rang just seemed a little easier to get a grip on. They both have pros and cons and are, IMO, equal adversaries. The Rang also has a secondary pedal option, the Side Car, that adds more hands free control, but the cost of it puts the total package at around $700. They are a little company but I think if they incorporate the two into one pedal, add USB connectivity (even if just for update purposes), get the clock sync update finished, and can get the price down to close what the RC300 goes for, they would have a winner for sure possibly even superior to the RC300. The two combined would still be a smaller footprint than the RC300.

Anyway, yes, let me know if I can help with anything on Rang questions. You can also call them at they're tech support with questions. I called once with a question and I think the number is his home phone or something :) Mr Nelson ( the guy in the demo vids with the funny hats and socks ) answered the phone and was really cool to talk to.
Gibson Les Paul Custom
Epi Les Paul Standard
Gibson SG 50's prototype
Squire classic vibe 60's
Epi LP Modern
Epi SG Custom
Martin acoustic

Princeton chorus 210

GT100
GR-55
Helix LT
Waza Air Headphones
Boomerang III

And, a lot of stuff I DON'T need


aliensporebomb

As a long overdue tollow-up - I ended up getting an RC-300 AND a Pigtronix Infinity.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.