Strategies for using a looper?

Started by carlb, January 03, 2019, 03:20:09 PM

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carlb

I own a couple of loopers (T.C. Electronic Ditto X2, EHX 95000, Digitech Trio+), and have messed around with them and tried using them in a gig situation - to less than satisfactory results.

I'm not an ambient guitarist, so I'm not looking to build up a layered background.

Instead, in a small ensemble I'd sometimes use a looper to establish the changes for a tune the first time through, which would free me up to double the lead-line the second time through, and then solo over the changes.

But gigging, I run into fumble-foot-syndrome ('FFS,' that tragic malady) to the bewilderment of my audience and the extreme annoyance of fellow musicians. Missed starts, botched loop-ends, mangled song-endings: extra or lost beats (half-beats too!) at any moment, weird foo-foo on an ending. These are my lot with my loopers.

And so I have to relegate loopers to practicing, banishing them from my live arsenal.

Question: what strategies have you used to get loopers to give you a consistent, reliable loop-timing experience in live settings?

Question: Are there some loopers that figure out the beats-per-measure and smartly trim the loop to what you most likely meant it to be? That seems like it would be what I'd need most.

Thanks!



ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

admin

#1
Some have strengths, All have flaws

at the moment  - the EHX 95000 is my current fave
https://www.ehx.com/products/95000


But IMHO - watch the latest  KT Tunstall for excellent review of live strategies

the Boss Tuners foot switch mute the unwanted signal sources, which feed a mixer, whose output feeds the input on an old Akai Headrush V2 Looper
 



- also its important to determine how your looper start/stop switch operates  - i.e. Does the Looper Start on Foot switch depress, or does it start on the Foot switch release?
(The old Akai Headrush Looper still has the most reliable  / forgiving  / accurate looper start / stop switch ever IMHO - and  KT Tunstall agrees)   


Start at 24:00 minutes


carlb

Thanks, Steve. I'll take a look at that this evening.
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

chrish

Could still be used for Ambience on intros into jazz tunes, or Latin jazz fusion. Build the layers at home and press play at gigs.

carlb

Quote from: admin on January 03, 2019, 03:26:05 PM
Some have strengths, All have flaws
at the moment  - the EHX 95000 is my current fave
https://www.ehx.com/products/95000

the Boss Tuners foot switch mute the unwanted signal sources, which feed a mixer, whose output feeds the input on an old Akai Headrush V2 Looper
 
- also its important to determine how your looper start/stop switch operates  - i.e. Does the Looper Start on Foot switch depress, or does it start on the Foot switch release?

The EHX 95000 has some obviously great features, but for me just wanting to build a single run through the head, does it have an advantage I should think about? (I do have that pedal.)

With regards to input signal muting, the idea is so you can keep the looper recording, and then just patch-in when you want to sprinkle a repeated riff-bit here or there - right?

I can see where start/stop-on-depress would be a completely different strategy than start/stop-on-release. Definitely have to work that through.

The one thing she says which struck me was to get your body moving to the beat to help you be ready to hit the footswitch with accurate timing. With a lighter guitar (Les Paul ES), I'm able to stand for the whole gig now, so I can likely make use of that ...

Still hoping for that "smart" looper that figures out your beat tempo, and bar lengths, to work out where you really *wanted* the loop to start/end at. Similar to the "Beat Buddy," which starts a fill to switch you to the alternate beat pattern wherever, but the alt beat starts at the next bar.

ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

Shingles

Quote from: carlb on January 03, 2019, 03:20:09 PM
I own a couple of loopers (T.C. Electronic Ditto X2, EHX 95000, Digitech Trio+), and have messed around with them and tried using them in a gig situation - to less than satisfactory results.

I'm not an ambient guitarist, so I'm not looking to build up a layered background.

Instead, in a small ensemble I'd sometimes use a looper to establish the changes for a tune the first time through, which would free me up to double the lead-line the second time through, and then solo over the changes.

But gigging, I run into fumble-foot-syndrome ('FFS,' that tragic malady) to the bewilderment of my audience and the extreme annoyance of fellow musicians. Missed starts, botched loop-ends, mangled song-endings: extra or lost beats (half-beats too!) at any moment, weird foo-foo on an ending. These are my lot with my loopers.

And so I have to relegate loopers to practicing, banishing them from my live arsenal.

Question: what strategies have you used to get loopers to give you a consistent, reliable loop-timing experience in live settings?

Question: Are there some loopers that figure out the beats-per-measure and smartly trim the loop to what you most likely meant it to be? That seems like it would be what I'd need most.

Thanks!

K T talks about muscle memory in the vid above and I think she's right. There's no substitute for practise,
practise, practise. A looper is another instrument to learn, not just an effect that you can just set and switch.
Nik
--------------------------------
Tonelab, VG99, Axon AX100, EDP, Repeater
Godin, PRS, Crafter and Roland guitars
Center Point Stereo Spacestation V3

Shingles

Quote

Still hoping for that "smart" looper that figures out your beat tempo, and bar lengths, to work out where you really *wanted* the loop to start/end at. Similar to the "Beat Buddy," which starts a fill to switch you to the alternate beat pattern wherever, but the alt beat starts at the next bar.

My old Electrix Repeater does a lot of this. It's no miracle machine (no 'talent' button) but it can detect beats and tempo on the fly AND have empty loops set up with preset tempo and length etc. It can also pitch shift individual tracks and do time stretching when you ant to change tempo.
But they are hard to come by. You can't have mine!

Nik
--------------------------------
Tonelab, VG99, Axon AX100, EDP, Repeater
Godin, PRS, Crafter and Roland guitars
Center Point Stereo Spacestation V3

aliensporebomb

I have an Electro-Harmonix Stereo Memory Man with Hazarai (1 loop, no undo), I also have a Pigtronix Infinity (2 loops + undo) with the optional footswitch and a Boss RC-300 (3 loops + undo).   

For "song style looping" the RC-300 has enough loops that you could have verse, chorus, bridge as individual separate loops.
With the RC-300 there's a certain lag in some functions because of the design philosophy used to produce the device.

But.... for playing with a band I'd check out the Pigtronix Infinity - The Pigtronix is absolutely instant and the external footswitch available as an option I'd say is required IMO as it adds features you will want (undo/reverse).  It's full stereo in/out plus it has an output specifically for your drummer to connect a monitor so they can be more in sync with what is happening with the looper.  The only downside: only 2 loops - I'm very used to 3 on the RC-300. 

I've played gigs with all 3 of these loopers and they all have pitfalls and pluses. 
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

carlb

No "Talent" button on these? Dang. Think I need a "Talent" knob which 'goes to eleven!'

I'll keep practicing my looping. Tap that foot to the beat, swing it up to hit the switch exactly when it needs to be ...

The Digitech Trio+ figures out your tempo and changes to add bass and drums. If anyone could have put together a "smart loops" foot switch, it would have been them.

ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

admin

Quote
The Digitech Trio+ figures out your tempo and changes to add bass and drums. If anyone could have put together a "smart loops" foot switch, it would have been them.

After the purchase of Harmon by Samsung the entire DigiTech crew was terminated

it will be years before they can resurrect and update existing product line with new features from the new Samsung/Harman Texas R&D lab

carlb

Such a waste.

I hope those engineers gathered under a new endeavor. Very talented group.
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

admin

Quote from: carlb on January 04, 2019, 09:37:23 AM
Such a waste.

I hope those engineers gathered under a new endeavor. Very talented group.

Unfortunately they have been scattered to new endeavors

Changes at Digitech
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=23531.0 

dswitkin

To answer the original post, yes the JamMan Stereo will quantize your foot pedal presses to the nearest beat so you don't have to be perfect hitting record for example. It will also do this for undo which may be unique -- you press and hold play for two seconds, and instead of performing the undo/redo immediately, it waits until the next beat. This is risky in a live situation but with practice will let you add and remove parts live.

As for your band situation, are you playing with a drummer? If so it would be ideal if you could all play to a click track, otherwise his/her rhythm may drift from your loops and bad things will happen. :)

plexified

 Put together a vision, and go for it. Every  mistake is one step closer to success. Don't get discouraged because your vision is worth it. Just don't beat yourself up. All the fancy quantizing stuff in the world is cool, but does not overcome timing, so keep on rocking. I use a midi controlled  Boss RC 505 and its amazing stuff. In the end every 'rendition' becomes your own. Not a copy , that's the important thing. A copy is complete failure on all levels. Never just copy. You have to present you. That's the secret to this music thing. Your suppose to be you, full on, with all the bumps , bruises and whiskey dents. That is what makes it all the living breathing result. You never touched it, but it touched you, and you show the world how.


carlb

Quote from: dswitkin on February 08, 2019, 06:22:25 PM
<...> As for your band situation, are you playing with a drummer? If so it would be ideal if you could all play to a click track, otherwise his/her rhythm may drift from your loops and bad things will happen. :)

There is a looper out now with an internal and external mic, which *does* listen to the live timing during playback and matches that. I don't think it has the smart start-on-beat, though.

Seems like a big opportunity for someone to include both in their looper.

Luckily for me, the situations where I'd think about a looper are for two instrumentalists, so that back the other musician for the first solo, then switch to soloing myself. By definition, whatever the looper is playing is the tempo.

I'll definitely check out the Jam Man Stereo, thanks!
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

plexified

Here is a great interview with Ed O' Brien of Radiohead , he gets into looping demos and discussions on his approach >carlb,  I  thought of you at about 24:00 in ;-) Eds famous for Looping on the fly and never playing the same thing night to night, every show is a journey. What a great peek inside the whole development of Radiohead from before they even picked up guitars through sold out arenas and the fun they have.