Help! Guitar Sustain decreases with higher pitch after GK3 installation

Started by pasha811, February 28, 2017, 10:41:45 PM

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pasha811

Recently I have installed a GK3 on my LTD ST-213 (Strat clone). Installation went fine and respectful of Roland's specifications :
1mm (measured with the included spacer when the highest fret is pressed) between the strings and the yokes, radius screw close to max extension counter clockwise due to neck radius close to 14".
What happens is that on a patch like Compression --> Amp (any COSM with good distortion, using BG Lead on GP10) with high gain --> Delay --> Reverb  the higher notes die pretty soon despite the compressor and distortion.
Can this be related to GK3 magnetic pull? So I have to assume that 1mm that Roland recommends it's not enough? Should that be more? Any 'sweet spot' suggestion? I remember the guitar exhibiting good sustain without GK3. I had to work with action, to make it higher to make room for the PU and as a consequence with intonation. I hear no 'fried strings' noise but it's more similar to a damper on the strings.  it happens more after the 17th fret. I can't tell if it's a mechanical problem, GK3 or both or even a Noise Suppressor problem.
the Noise Suppressor on GP10 it's very aggressive compared to other units so I had to relax it a bit (longer release helps) and I have tried without NS ON with mixed results. Any suggestion welcome.  ???

Best
Pasha
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

mooncaine

I don't know how to answer all your questions, but I can help with this one: " can't tell if it's a mechanical problem, GK3 or both or even a Noise Suppressor problem."

In a quiet place, with the guitar unplugged, play it.

If the sustain's just as awesome as before, it's not a mechanical problem. That's my theory, and it's what I'd test.

mooncaine

Is the pickup closer to the bridge* than Roland's specs recommend?

I have a sweet little Steinberger headless that suffered from lack of sustain on the high notes when played through my VG-88. Lots of handling noise. Pickup seems microphonic to me (is it supposed to be?).

I moved the pickup farther from the bridge after reading some tips here about this being a sustain killer and raising the noise floor (because the string's not as loud at that part, close to the bridge).

Guitar sounds better. Still noisy, still not lined up so great because its bridge doesn't line up with the pickup. I had to choose: line up the high string, or the low string? Not both. I think I rocked it as far back as I can get away with, when played on my VG-99. Haven't done Guitar-to-MIDI since moving it, I don't think, not enough to notice a difference. Tone is better, less harsh, rounder.

I love that guitar and it's worth it to me to put up with a poorly fitted pickup vs. changing to another guitar.

You say yours is a Strat clone. I think if you laid the GK pickup right up against the side of the bridge pickup, it'd be in a good spot. Measure it.*

*You gotta measure from the center of the pickup's polepieces to the spot where the string touches the bridge, the saddle.

pasha811

Quote from: mooncaine on March 01, 2017, 05:40:11 PM
Is the pickup closer to the bridge* than Roland's specs recommend?

I have a sweet little Steinberger headless that suffered from lack of sustain on the high notes when played through my VG-88. Lots of handling noise. Pickup seems microphonic to me (is it supposed to be?).

I moved the pickup farther from the bridge after reading some tips here about this being a sustain killer and raising the noise floor (because the string's not as loud at that part, close to the bridge).

Guitar sounds better. Still noisy, still not lined up so great because its bridge doesn't line up with the pickup. I had to choose: line up the high string, or the low string? Not both. I think I rocked it as far back as I can get away with, when played on my VG-99. Haven't done Guitar-to-MIDI since moving it, I don't think, not enough to notice a difference. Tone is better, less harsh, rounder.

I love that guitar and it's worth it to me to put up with a poorly fitted pickup vs. changing to another guitar.

You say yours is a Strat clone. I think if you laid the GK pickup right up against the side of the bridge pickup, it'd be in a good spot. Measure it.*

*You gotta measure from the center of the pickup's polepieces to the spot where the string touches the bridge, the saddle.

Thanks for reply!

I have followed the  guidelines at page 9 : https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/GK-3_OM.pdfso that the

Measurements are within Roland specs, within 20mm. The maximum distance (E low) being 18.5 mm and the minimum 14.5 mm (E high) as you pointed out those are measurements taken from the center of the pickup's polepieces to the spot where the string touches the bridge, the saddle. The bridge it's a 100% reproduction of a MIM Strat. So I have narrow screws and narrow string spacing at 2" 1/16. Between the bridge and the GK3 there's a little gap of about 1mm so that the tremolo can work without problems. I have done the suggested test and the decay happens immediately let's say 1-2 seconds at the 22nd fret and 2 seconds after the 17th frets. Center neck between 5th and 7th fret and 12th fret it's where I score around 5 seconds. At the 22nd fret the sound loses it's brilliance too. I have noticed that the neck PU it's very close to the strings when I play around 17th to 22nd fret but that was not a problem before. However it could have become a problem in conjunction with GK3.  When using electric the test follows suit.
So I'm left with four options here :


  • Remove GK3 and test (it's mounted with screws through the plate and the body)  (magnetic pull)
  • Lower the Neck PU and test (magnetic pull)
  • Raise the action (mechanical) even if I have no buzz but the highest portion of the neck it's very straight
  • A combination of the above

What do you think?

Best
Pasha
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Elantric

Quote
Measurements are within Roland specs, within 20mm. The maximum distance (E low) being 18.5 mm and the minimum 14.5 mm (E high

Your GK Hex PU may still be a bit too close to the bridge ,preventing sensing the string vibration excursion and amplitude that occurs in the "sweet zone @ 20mm



Read more here

Can GK-3 PU be too close to the bridge??
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13322.0

gumtown

Normal pickups too close to the strings? with the extra strong magnets putting on the brakes on the strings?

Was it you that mentioned in another post that your normal picks were a lot louder than the modelled tones?

Try lowering the ESP pickups from the strings as an experiment.
Also incorrect wiring, where the pickups output is short circuited at minimum volume, causing pickup loading can also 'put the brakes on' the strings too,

just a thought...
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

pasha811

Quote from: gumtown on March 02, 2017, 12:18:39 AM
Normal pickups too close to the strings? with the extra strong magnets putting on the brakes on the strings?

Was it you that mentioned in another post that your normal picks were a lot louder than the modelled tones?

Try lowering the ESP pickups from the strings as an experiment.
Also incorrect wiring, where the pickups output is short circuited at minimum volume, causing pickup loading can also 'put the brakes on' the strings too,

just a thought...

Yes it was me. My guitar output it's louder than Modeled output.
As reported my suspicion goes to the neck PU more than everything else as it comes closer to the string when I play over the 17th fret. The wiring is good as it was from the factory as I didn't touch it. Volume and tone is very sensitive notch by notch. With a magnifying glass I have looked at the strings when I press the 22nd fret. There's no buzz whatsoever but the sound it's kinda dumped as in contact with a soft cloth. The guitar has Jumbo keys so the space for the fingers it's reduced as the notes gets higher but that was untouched from day one.
A lot to do tonight! :-)

Thanks
Cheers
Pasha
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

pasha811

Quote from: Elantric on March 01, 2017, 11:16:38 PM
Your GK Hex PU may still be a bit too close to the bridge ,preventing sensing the string vibration excursion and amplitude that occurs in the "sweet zone @ 20mm



Read more here

Can GK-3 PU be too close to the bridge??
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13322.0

Thanks Elantric, very interesting thread.
I can move the GK3 a tad towards the bridge PU but that would result in a pair of new holes for the screws. For that reason that will be my last option. I'll do the measurements again precisely with a proper ruler. This morning I did it with a plastic school ruler... In any case Roland states in the manual that :

If your guitar has a tremolo unit (whammy bar),
then attaching the pickup at the bridge position may
bring the pickup into direct contact with the tremolo
unit. Position the pickup so that it will not interfere
with operation of the tremolo unit.
*
Attach the pickup about 15 mm (9/16") from the
bridge if your guitar is strung with copper, brass, or
bronze wound strings, such as with an acoustic guitar.
*
Regardless of the guitar, do not position the divided
pickup more than 20 mm (13/16") from the bridge.


...Which it's confusing when you're asked to  measure from the center of the pickup's polepieces to the spot where the string touches the bridge, the saddle, when doing the GP10 setup or any other GK unit.
In any case if I consider the 20mm sweet spot as measured as above I'm not that far away but sure I could move it 1mm away from the bridge to be in the sweet spot zone with the majority of strings (otherwise my low E will fall out of 20mm).

What bugs me is that while the GK3 was provisional with tape I didn't recall such behavior and it was in the same position...

EDIT : The Sustain problem happens with both Normal and GK Pickup.

Best Regards
Thanks
Pasha
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

shawnb

If your normal mag pups behave normally, plugged straight into an amp, you're good.   That's the real test.   

This really sounds like a patch issue.  NS is always suspect.  Some COSM voices have poor sustain.   
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Elantric

Strat type guitars with single coil PU's have tremendous magnetic flux , higher than a Gibson LP

It's crucial not to set the normal single coil PU height too close to the strings

When set too close you will hear a pulsing out of tune effect on the lower strings when played above the 12th fret

Lower the single coil PU height increases sustain

Elantric

That's the symptom common to most Strats

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/stratitis/
Quote2. Stratitis is simultaneous multiple discordant frequency syndrome. To state it non-technically, the sole function of a magnet in a guitar pickup is to magnetize the strings — any more magnetism than that is unnecessary and detrimental. The excessive magnetism causes different sections of the string to vibrate at different rates producing multiple dissonant frequencies from the same string. The effect becomes even more unpleasant when the string is out of tune. Excessive magnetism is the reason you can't set a typical Fender-style single-coil pickup (Hence Strat-itis) very close to the strings if you want to avoid "Stratitis" and loss of natural sustain. (Buzz and rattles are also caused by excessive magnetism pulling the strings into the frets.)

When the magnet is also the core material of the pickup's coil, as in a Fender-style single-coil pickup, the magnetic properties and the core's effect on inductance and Q make the situation even more difficult. It's better to use separate magnetic and core materials so each can be selected precisely for the necessary characteristics.

mooncaine

That Stratitis tone is part of what makes Jimi Hendrix's Strat sound watery on the Woodstock album, when he plays on lower strings but up around the 12th fret or higher. I used to like that tone.

I think your next step should be to lower the mag pickups, and do a test. That's the easiest, most reversible test you can try.

Play some scales around the 15th fret with the neck pickup on. That ought to help.

pasha811

So far I've done some of my homeworks.

1. I have lowered the mag PUs.
2. This gave a little but noticeable benefit
3. Starting from this new position I have raised the action a little (about .20 mm to .10mm) this made the Roland GK3 gauge stay between the strings and the yokes without any pressure. Before that I had to slightly force the Roland gauge under the string especially for B and G.

However the problem was very evident on high E, B, G especially between fret 15 and 22.

Attached a file I have recorded with VG99 with COSM AMP distortion and COMP with natural PU. From High E to low E note by note from 12th fret to 22nd fret. Pls note the rapid decay of high E at 22nd Fret compared to the others.

Let me know what you think.

I love the Stratitis disease.. my guitar it's a clone but I think it can be affected as well :-)
The human version of  stratitis is mine.. I can't live without a Stratocaster....:-)

Thanks so much for help and time. I'm learning a lot because of you!
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Brak(E)man

How are the other frets from 12th and up on e string if you hold them until they die out ?
What's your gauge ?
Any noise gate ?
What's your string height at 12th fret on high e string ?
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

shawnb

Is the problem only noticeable thru Roland gear?   Do you notice it plugged straight into your amp?
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

pasha811

How are the other frets from 12th and up on e string if you hold them until they die out ?

In general for high E if I play from fret 1 to fret 15:
I have good sustain from 1 to 12
good enough sustain from 12 to 15
acceptable sustain from 16 to 18
fast decay from 18 to 21
very fast decay at 22 (now is much better..although not optimal)

What's your gauge ?

009    011    016    DY24 DY32 DY42  (GHS , GBXL)    

Any noise gate ?

No. In the VG99 patch I have used NS is off (hence the noise) I have used position 4 (Neck + Middle to mitigate the noise)
I am using a guitar cable to connect to VG99, not GK cable.

What's your string height at 12th fret on high e string ?

It was 2.25mm before my intervention, now it's 2.5mm (keep in mind that an exact reading it's cumbersome having to measure the space under the string and you can be slightly in excess. Moreover I have Jumbo frets. LTD recommends no less than 1.5mm while my luthier suggests no less then 2.00 mm for high E at 12th fret while Fender recommends 1.6mm at 17th fret... 

I use this ruler for action : https://www.amazon.com/String-Action-Electric-Acoustic-Guitar/dp/B00NARHNCS

Neck relief it's right. My luthier told me my neck does not need any adjustment.

Thanks for help!
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

pasha811

Quote from: shawnb on March 02, 2017, 03:22:57 PM
Is the problem only noticeable thru Roland gear?   Do you notice it plugged straight into your amp?

I do not have an amp available now. It happens unplugged and with Roland gear but with no GK cable.
It happens on VG99**, GT-1 and GP10, even if I have to say that Noise Gate on GP10 it's too aggressive when compared to the others.
My chain is Roland Gear into a Mixer then to a pair of monitors. That sure would reduce the sustain at higher notes but  reality is that Roland Gear follows the same behavior as when I play unplugged.

** the patch used for test has no noise gate and COSM AMP is BG LEAD SMOOTH DRIVE.
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

pasha811

I have found the LTD Manual for PU height measured by pressing the last fret and getting the distance with the string:

Guitars
2.5 mm (3/32") Bass Side  ** it was 1.5mm now it's in spec (it was higher than the neck profile)
1.5 mm (1/16") Treble Side

My GK3 measurements between center yoke and saddle (where the string leaves the bridge)

E  16 mm
B  17 mm
G  18 mm
D  17 mm
A  18,5 mm
E  19,5 mm

Distance between the back of GK3 body and the saddle : high E 11 mm, low E 15 mm.
In this respect the article suggested by Elantric matches my situation. However if I move the GK3 closer to the PU and far from the bridge let's say 5 mm I will obtain the following :

E  21 mm
B  22 mm
G  23 mm
D  22 mm
A  23,5 mm
E  24,5 mm

Which I have always thought it's beyond Roland specs:

Regardless of the guitar, do not position the divided pickup more than 20 mm (13/16") from the bridge.
.. but now I understand that 20mm it's the maximum distance between back of GK3 body and the further saddle with usually it's low E and
Bridge --> PU distance can be as much as 30 mm and the sweet spot it's 20 mm from the center of the yokes to the saddle where the string leaves the bridge. However my GK3 works fine and sustain problem happens unplugged, with Mag PU and GK3, likely a problem that might have been introduced by installing the GK3 and magnetic pull might be the reason.
In any case lowering the Mag PU especially the neck has improved the situation. Coupled with a reset of string action, the magnetic pull of GK3 should have been reduced even with small changes. (physics says it's reduced by distance as 1/r^2 law for monopoles and 1/r^3 for dipoles) 

So the only thing I'm left is remove the GK3 temporarily and see what happens.
Tonight it's going to be a long one..

Thanks a lot to everybody!

Best
Pasha
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

shawnb

I suspect action/setup.  Truss rod tension too high or bridge too low....
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Brak(E)man

I'd suspect
Thin gauge
low action
and pull from the guit PUs

I wouldn't expect this to be gk related
but I've been wrong before
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

pasha811

Quote from: Brak(E)man on March 03, 2017, 02:16:15 AM
I'd suspect
Thin gauge
low action
and pull from the guit PUs

I wouldn't expect this to be gk related
but I've been wrong before

Thanks!

That gauge it's the one I used for years but I get your point. I will work around other variables, then.
Guitar PU have been lowered down to specs by now but I have a question:

Do you consider low an action of 2.5mm @ high E (consider a 13.77 neck radius and that low E it's around 2.75-3mm) What is considered high?

Best Regards
Pasha
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Brak(E)man

The Action on 12th fret thin E string on my fretted guitars is 5-6 mm , gauge 11-50
gives loads of sustain etc.
High would be 8-10 mm for me
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

pasha811

Quote from: Brak(E)man on March 03, 2017, 04:47:35 AM
The Action on 12th fret thin E string on my fretted guitars is 5-6 mm , gauge 11-50
gives loads of sustain etc.
High would be 8-10 mm for me

Thanks.
This answer it's very important for me as two weeks ago I gave a try to a Telecaster HH (MIM) and the shop guy told me that every guitar he has in the shop it's setup with Fender specs in a maniacal way because Setup it's included with sales. That guitar has more or less 1.6mm at the 17th fret! Action was like playing on butter.
I was astonished. Moreover the HH has a fixed tail bridge not the typical ash tray and without any pickguard like Stratocaster has they are perfect to add a GK3 in between the bridge and the bridge humbucker....

Best
Pasha
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Brak(E)man

The problem with a very low action are many. One is low sustain ESP. With thinner gauge.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

pasha811

Quote from: Brak(E)man on March 03, 2017, 07:14:45 AM
The problem with a very low action are many. One is low sustain ESP. With thinner gauge.

Well but that cozy Telecaster...   :-)
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/