New Strategies for Improved Live Sound - In Ear Monitors

Started by Elantric, January 23, 2008, 07:30:44 PM

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Elantric

Repost from Brent Flash -
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=28


OK, this may be a long one but you asked for it. Please bear with me
as it will take some explanation to get to the point.

First let's talk about a live show where the audience is hearing the
instruments through a PA. There are no perfect solutions when it
comes to live sound. When all instrumentation is running through the
PA, the stage sound is now more of a problem than an asset. One
obvious reason is if it is too loud off stage then the FOH (Front Of House = Main PA !) engineer
cannot control the level so you end up with a solo (whatever
instrument it is) through the whole show. I am sure you have been to
a concert where the guitar, bass, drums, trumpet, etc. (not to leave
anyone out) are too loud all night. After a while you get accustomed
to it but it still isn't right. This also could be caused by not
having a FOH engineer. Anyone who thinks they can mix from the stage
is fooling themselves but a lot of us do it when we have no other
choice.

Another reason loud stage levels are a problem is the speed of sound
is fairly slow as it takes approximately one millisecond for sound to
travel a foot. So lets say the guitar is coming out of a PA speaker
stage right and the guitar amp is stage left blasting away about 50
feet from the PA speaker. Anyone in front of the PA speaker will hear
the sound out of the PA first and then 50 milliseconds later they
will hear the guitar amp sound. This does two things. Your brain uses
delay to find where a sound is coming from so it hears it come out of
the PA first so that is the source. Not that big of a problem since
most people expect to hear something coming out of the PA but in a
perfect world it would be better if it sounded like it was coming
from the guy playing. (This is the whole idea with the Bose system
someone mentioned in another post in this topic.) Also, 50
milliseconds is enough to start hearing the slap delay. Some would
say that is cool and it is, if you want slap delay on you guitar all
night. But any delay added (when not intentional for effect) IMHO
smears the sound. So now think of what is happening with all the
instruments on stage, all getting this slight delay added to them.
This is why you are seeing the delay feature pop up in digital
boards. So you can time align the instrument stage sound with the PA.
It's not perfect but it can help. Especially if you have a piccolo
snare being smacked 75 feet from the PA stack. The way to correct
this is to delay the snare a little behind the real drum sound off
stage reducing the slap and now your brain tells you the sound is
coming from the drum kit even though it is still coming out of the PA.

Because of these issues we now see a trend where most top touring
acts are going to in-ear monitors. Along with this they are sometimes
going to the extreme and are putting guitar amps, Leslie speakers,
etc. off stage in sound proof boxes. Why? So they can reduce stage
volume, making the FOH system sound much better. Other advantages are
that the in-ears help protect their hearing, they can hear what they
want to hear better, and reduce stage clutter (no monitor wedges).
But these in-ear monitors are not for everyone. Some can never
acclimate to them.

OK, OK what does this have to do with my VG-99 sounding good live?
Well... nothing. It is all about how you monitor what you need to
hear on stage. Do you have your guitar amp at your feet pointing out
at the audience blasting away and you are thinking it sounds great?
Well, your ears are so off axis from the speaker you really are not
hearing what is coming out of it. But the person at the edge of the
stage out front is getting the full glory of it beaming at their
face. Or do you have it on an amp stand pointing at your head and
that doesn't seem to sound right either? Do you have a monitor wedge
too? Are you standing next to the bass player and every time he turns
up you have to turn up until it gets so out of control someone says
"we are way too loud we need to turn down" and then within 10 minutes
you are right back to the level you were at before asking for more
vocals in your monitor because now you can't hear them? I am sure a
lot of you know what I am talking about.

In my case I have dealt with this for over 28 years on both sides of
the desk. I have been gradually changing from the amp stacks behind
me to a more modeled sound since the Rockman came out. Looking for a
way to reproduce that magic sound every time I play and not have to
fiddle with my amp for an hour to get it. Also, looking for a way to
keep the stage monitor levels at least below the PA levels. My path
has recently (last 10 years) taken me through the Johnson Millennium
Modeling amp and Line 6 Vetta both used at the same time in some
cases and both used at my feet and on amp stands pointing at my head.
These amps are nothing like a Marshall stack setup and have a more
refined sound but also make it a little harder to get them to cut
through high stage volume.

In the past year a decision was made to go with in-ear monitors
mainly because no one could hear themselves in some smaller venues
over the drums (New drummer beating the hell out of them) no matter
how loud we got on stage. This took my amp out of the mix as for as
what I hear on stage completely. I have no reason to have my amp loud
other than the feedback I get from the amp sound sympathetically
vibrating my guitar strings (which I love but there are other ways to
achieve this like the Fernandes sustainer technology). The in-ear
switch resulted in the bands' stage volume decreased and FOH sounding
1000% better. And that is what it is all about. What the audience hears.

Note: I am not trying to talk anyone into switching to in-ears and I
do not work for any in-ear company. I am just trying to explain to
Davor how the VG-99 works for me in a live situation.

Now that I am in-ear I can get whatever I want in them at whatever
level I want. So cutting through stage level is a non-issue, but tone
still is. My transition from Vetta to VG was made after the in-ear
switch so I had already started using the line outs of the Vetta to
create my patches and not the speakers in the amp. This is the key
with in-ears but if you do not use in-ears or full range monitors for
your VG you are up against a daunting task to balance the tone from
your amp with the line out to the PA. Unless you mic the amp this
would be hard IMHO.

Don't get me wrong. I am still tweaking my patches one way or
another. How can you not with all there is to tweak? Anyway, to
answer some other questions you posted, I usually play in a five
piece group - drums, keys, bass, 2 guitars, and five vocal. Playing
everything under the sun just about, but mostly classic rock.

My plan for my patches comes from my years working in the recording
industry and learning through the years where the guitar lives in the
audio spectrum in a mix. As others have posted, what sounds good by
itself will usually not sound right in an ensemble. Using up all your
headroom with bass, for example, will hurt more than help. You have a
bass guitar for that. Yes, every new patch will need some adjustment.
Depends on how good you get and how true your monitor system is. If I
set up a patch using JBL 15" G2 EON's and then used my in-ears live I
would probably be in trouble but as mentioned on another post there
are master EQs to fix this sort of problem. I have the luxury of
being able to do what is called a virtual sound check. My FOH system
includes a multitrack recorder that allows me to record the raw
signal from all the instruments. In the FOH rack is also a digital
mixing console that can switch to input the multitrack and use it as
if the band was playing live. I can sit in my studio and play along
with my band and try out patches to see how they work. I can listen
to my monitor mix and listen to FOH if I want to. Isn't technology
wonderful!

What works for me would probably not work for you. It all comes down
to what is comfortable and what you are accustomed to. If you like
the way your guitar sounds with your amp at your feet then doing
something else will probably have a negative effect on your FLOW.

Kindest regards,
Brent Flash
Audio/Video Engineer
Flash Enterprises
R2BFlash@aol.com

Brent Flash

#1
This is interesting replying to my own post from another forum. This reply is mainly to get that live feel back when using low stage volume or IEMs.

I have just completed an install of a devise that is one of our moderators namesake.
EDIT: side note "Elantric" used to be known as "Sustainiac" for the 1st year of VGuitarforums - name change  because folks assumed "Sustainiac" was Alan Hoover @ Maniac Music - creator of the Sustainiac!)

I have just installed the Sustainiac Plus into a Steinberger GM-4T that has a GK-3 on it replacing the neck EMG-SA pickup.

This is an attempt to solve something I miss with a wall of Marshall's behind me. I mention it in the first post, "I have no reason to have my amp loud other than the feedback I get from the amp sound sympathetically vibrating my guitar strings." I am happy to report that this devise not only gives me that live loud feel of a stack of Marshall's behind me but adds some other interesting usees too.

As I use it more I will try to remember to come post the results here.

The installation was pretty painless and I have to say Alan over at Maniac Music has been a tremendous help with the installation. Even with NAMM in between when I received the Sustainiac and my installation we were able to work out a few issues that popped up because of my uncommon install.

More later.

Elantric

Brent - I'm extremely happy to see you here. I feel this "How to get the old school Live feel using In Ear Monitors" issue is going to emerge as as very important aspect to tackle!

Glad you hooked with Alan Hoover at Maniac Music

http://www.sustainiac.com/



Brent Flash

Quote from: sustainiac on January 24, 2008, 10:58:10 AM
Brent - I'm extremely happy to see you here. I feel this "How to get the old school Live feel using In Ear Monitors" issue is going to emerge as as very important aspect to tackle!

Thanks Steve! I am going to give this format a real try. I am hoping it will not take too many steps to get things posted here. As you know it still takes a trip here to post.

s0c9

Quote from: Brent Flash on January 24, 2008, 10:33:29 AM
"I have no reason to have my amp loud other than the feedback I get from the amp sound sympathetically vibrating my guitar strings."

I have the same objective... s'why I posted on the old forum about who's using the VG-99 live ??
I do NOT yet own the 99, but have messed fairly extensively with the older vg-88, back whe, so I definitely have an interest is other feedback on using the vg99 live...

I currently play a Line6 FLexIII-XL [2x12] combo, with a floorboard, and gig, rehearse and play at church pretty regularly. While I like the sounds I can get from the F3 - it's very versatile - I have the same old solid-state problem of cutting thru the mix [with cranking the amp]. I do run direct out of the XLR's of the F3 into the PA, so ONLY use the amp for monitoring. Everything goes thru the FOH mix and both guitar amps are pointed across stage [not out front] and even bass amp points toward drummer. Mine and bass are DI, the other guitar is mic'd. We can usually hear each other fine, but even with seasoned musos, it sometimes gets loud on stage.  Only thing in monitors [4 mixes] is vocals, except for drummer [mix 4] and keys [mix 3] who gets instruments as well.

So to better control my stage "hearing", I tried the IEM route.
Bought some UM-1's, integrated into the PA.  LOVE 'EM !! 
They were a little sterile, but everything is crystal clear. Harmonies were SO much easier, as you could actually the other vocals versus having the wedge tunnel them past your shoulder if you were out of the "zone". :(

So anyway, I stopped using them after a couple of gigs for the following reasons:
1. They were not wireless - that was another $500. My guitar is currently wireless.
2. My mix was being run off an AUX send on the FOH mixer - so totally under control of soundguy - I had no control over it. There were definite issues with trying to communicate exactly what I need more/less of in the mix during a gig.
3. IEM's are very sensitive [low impedance] and it takes little to drive them. Even a tiny adjustment on my amp would significantly increase the volume. NO limiters in place on that setup.
4. Whenever the other guitar turned up - remember he was mic'd [SM57] - his volume level in the mix would obliterate all others, and I wouldn't be able to hear anything but him. So I wound up ripping them out mid-song so I could hear the rest of the band.

I would definitely go back to them - IN A HEARTBEAT - but only if:
a) the entire band [or most of them] go that route
b) we have a snake split to an on-stage mixer, or an Aviom or Hearback system in place so we can control out own mixes and levels.

We use an Aviom system at church - KILLER - but there's no way I can convince the band to splurge.
I mean, take a look at what it would cost to move a 6-piece band to even MI-level IEM's !!

Meantime, moving to a VG99 system would not impact what I do today, just looking for feedback on how y'all have integrated it into your live rig !!

-Steve

PS: I'm still working the IEM issue....   I would not dissuade anyone from going IEM. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT !!!   Your ears will thank you in the end too

Elantric

we need a "poor man's" Aviom - with 90% of the functionality, yet costs 80% less.
http://www.aviom.com/

brainstorm a wishlist feature set here - it might become a reality.

Edit: Look at QSC TOuchMix 16, Behringer X-32

s0c9

yeah really !!  ;D

At the GC price of $575 for personal mixer and $1050+ for the AN-16i, that would be $4000+ for my band. NOT !!~! :o
That doesn't even factor in the IEM's and the wireless transmitters that would be required for a truly 'mobile' stage.
I guess wired would be a lot cheaper, but....

Also, Hearback has a cheaper system but its 8-chan versus the Aviom 16-chan system.

teejay

I guess this is where I'm lucky, doing mostly solo gigs lately.
I went IEM about 2 years ago, and wouldn't under any cicumstances go back to wedges now.
Perfect sound, wherever I wander onstage, and level control also.
PS the sennheiser IEM system does feature a limiter, I dont use it being solo, but in a band situation...... :o
to cut to the chase...if you CAN go IEM then at least try it.....
unless you have a problem with earphones, I bet you'll never go back.
Regards,
TeeJay
www.myspace.com/teejaysound
Custom KGB headless, internal GK2a and sustainiac stealth plus. GR55 straight into PA.   Guitar out (COSM) feeding digitech VL4 vocal harmoniser.

fxbuff

I personally *highly* recommend the Hearback system to drive in-ears. It's what I use with my band. Yeah, it's 8 channels so you might have to combine some feeds through an aux out but you don't want to be fiddling much with your mix during live performance anyway.

I think the Hearback has three main advantages:
1. Pricepoint, I outfit my band for a whole lot less than competing products
2. Sound - ok, this is only my opinion, but the sound is a lot warmer and less digital/harsh than others
3. And this is the big one - built in compressor/limiter! A *must* in my opinion for in-ears. I have also had someone crank up the snare and rip my head off using another system. Hearback gives you protection you need.

No I'm not a Hearback employee! Just a happy customer. We actually plan everything line-in (Roland V-drums, Bass Pod, Roland VG-99 (soon), Roland RD700SX keyboard so we have no on stage monitoring. Sound guys love us! We've played a couple of gigs where the sound guy just sends us 4 monitor feeds to the Hearback, so we lose really granular control but it's 'good enough'.

Another small advantage for live sound this way is that the sound guys can use a talk-back mike and talk in your ears without the audience hearing anything. Kinda wierd not having the directionality of sound (where is he?) but definitely helpful.


Elantric

#9
Scott wrote:

I remember people in the yahoo group were talking about IEMs. Have always wanted to go in that direction. Maybe people could give me some tips. Which brands are good, which ones to steer clear of. Pros, cons...
Do you need to get moulds made or are we just talking about a high-powered version of the ipod type things? Is cabling a hassle? And the big question: do they incorporate some sort of limiter? I have this big nightmare about someone pressing the wrong button or plugging something in incorrectly and generating massive feedback. We've all done it at some stage, and we all know that half a second of madness as you frantically turn everything, anything down as quick as you can. That is painful enough when you are near an amp, but to have that right in your ears?? That kind of mishap could mean instant and permanent hearing damage...

Granted, that's a worst case scenario Smile
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scott




Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 3

   
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:09 pm    Post subject:    Reply with quote
The leading brands seem to be Westone, Etymotic, Ultimate Ears, and Shure (links at end of post). They come with different sized foam and silicone inserts though you can have custom ear moulds made. Other than isolation, they are generally far superior to ear buds in terms of response and clarity. However, they sound dreadful if you don't get a good seal. I was pretty disappointed with mine until I worked this out. I think some might come with a volume attenuator.

Also, they are great for air travel.

Prices:
http://www.headphone.com/products/headphones/in-ear-monitor/

Company websites:
http://www.westone.com/content/8.html
http://www.etymotic.com/
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/PersonalMonitorSystems/index.htm
http://www.ultimateears.com/_ultimateears/
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dead_lizard



Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 66
Location: Newcastle, Australia
   
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:17 pm    Post subject:    Reply with quote
Which brand have you got?

Do you find the cabling restrictive?

Is it annoying to not being able to hear the audience?

scott
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:06 am    Post subject:    Reply with quote
I don't actually play professionally and don't have the need for monitoring. I bought the Shure E2c because I wanted to try IEMs and they were cheap. Next time I'll get something better (probably from Shure but maybe UE)

They don't block out all sound, you will still be able to hear quite a bit, just like foam earplugs. If I were using them for monitoring, I guess I would velcro the cable to the guitar strap and have some sort of volume control there too. There are cordless systems available. If you listen to music on an mp3 player, you might find them to be quite useful. It is much easier to enjoy music on the train or bus for example.

eart2mars

I dont play very loud, so i can use small Mackie SRM150's on mic stands in stereo connected to the main outs while the mixer gets the XLR Sub Outs .

One issue i was having is the VG-99 would not output to the Main Outs - no sound. Sometimes if i power off and back on it would work. Very frustrating (i played a gig last weekend without any stages monitors becuase of this).

I upgraded the system to 1.04 which hopefully fixes things.

Otherwise this works well in a reasonable volume environment.
godin Nylon SA and LGX-SA

Rax

I ended up discussing this on another thread but I thought I'd post something here.... (since this one IS about in ear monitors). 
Before our group actually started using in-ear I was pretty intimidated by the thought of depending on them in concert.

We use the Precision Lab dual driver in-ear.  I know people who use and love the single drivers.  But for the type of music that we play, and the way we run our show, the dual drivers seemed appropriate.

The dual drivers we use sound better then any conventional ear phones I've ever used, and they do kill outside sound. We have to set up two mic's to hear the audience.  I dislodge one side of the in-ears slightly to hear the world between songs.  They were by far the best investment we ever made for helping our mix and ultimately our soundman. 

The wireless transmitters and receivers are Sennheiser.  Not the really high end model, but the affordable Sr 300 IEM G2.  (We put our money into the better in-ear dual drivers).  We use the same receivers on the same freq. so we all have the same mix on stage. 

We set up a full stage mix that is sent to the in ear monitors and some full range EAW cabinets that act as monitors (If needed... never are) and fire them into the audience for a short throw full pristine stereo mix.  The house mix is not effected by this.  (The sound man has our full stereo mix plus all instruments and backing track material coming form our show controller).     Running a full mix on stage is really the way to go for us, (we can play off each others dynamics).  Hope this helps anyone who is researching.  There are other ways to set up your in-ear mix.... but this involves different mixes on stage.  What a pleasant way to create and listen to your music live.  (We had our molds done by Precision Labs.)
Links for some information on Precision.
http://earplugstore.stores.yahoo.net/precisionlabs.html
http://earplugstore.stores.yahoo.net/chpro65.html 
Hope this helps.
Rax
http://www.acousticon.net/

Billy Kaffadrin

#12
My observation as a sound guy is that while in ears are a great aid to singers for singing on pitch, they tend to cause singers and the band to play to a different space than their audience is in.  It also causes an artificial ceiling in the performances, I have seen where an emotional peak in a performance gets killed in it's expression because of how the band hears themselves in their heads.

So my opinion of In Ears is they are consistent, repeatable, helpful - and dreadfully, terribly boring.  I kinda consider them "Magic Killers", except in combination with live monitors.

One high profile band I mixed, Famous blond singer couldn't stand the volume of the crash cymbals, so the whole band ended up with In Ears. Long story short, no stage monitors, drums only shells with triggers, all amps in boxes, keys direct...  And now the only sound you hear on stage (bleeding into her mic) is ... The cymbals! 

How ironical.

Billy

Elantric

#13
>So my opinion of In Ears is they are consistent, repeatable, helpful - and dreadfully, terribly boring.  I kinda consider them "Magic Killers", except in combination with live monitors.

I know what you mean -

Working a wide  range of stage volume dynamics is where I'm at, its a lost art - and in some circles totally unknown in our "pump up the volume" / compression on all the time "  culture.

Some of my best gigs with best crowd reaction were totally acoustic - me  playing my  National resophonic Radiotone Bendaway ,
http://www.nationalguitars.com/bendaway.html
with other players on mandolin, upright bass, flute, tromobone. Eclectic mix  The National has plenty of Volume on its own- but if every one can listen to each other, and cue new directions as an ensemble  -  its huge, and a crucial part of the musical magic I'm focused on today. I've stated it many times - i use my VG-99 in the studio. My live rig on the other hand  - i prefer my Brian Setzer Gretsch 6120 with T. V. Jones filtertrons , boutique pedalboard, and Cube-60 for live performance. i can navigate it like its 2nd nature.  I have yet to find on the VG-99 ( or any other modeller  - save the Vox Tonelab LE) ) the same dynamic range to my picking dynamics that I can get with the gear I described in the last sentence.   


I think the potential  for "pilot error"  at the live gig becomes the major hurdle for the bar band VG-99 user. Now if I could only find a local college audio engineering student who wants to be my off stage co-pilot / guitar tech  VG-99 operator- perhaps I'd embrace the VG-99 for live gigs. 

I have split personality - at the live gig I focus on playing guitar - so I prefer point and shoot. But then i grew up in a era where I once did it all with a Les paul Junior, a dynacomp, an Echplex and a Marshal 50 watt.
Those still work for me today - just got tired of cleaniing tape heads and changing tubes!

Billy Kaffadrin

#14
Well stage monitor levels are typically way too loud for touring bands, and often because the drummer wants to hear the processed/eq'ed sound instead of what his kit really sounds like. This is an artistic choice of course, however Bass players have really no such excuse for their contribution to the volume escalation follies, although most experienced guys know better it's a common problem I see.

I do also like the straight guitar into pedalboard into amp scenario (Duncan pickups guy myself), and all my guitars certainly sound better than any guitar model, VG99 included.  However carrying around several guitars with alternative tunings along with a Steel Guitar, dobro and mandolin is problematic if you don't have a Guitar Tech.  So right now I am trying a 2 pronged approach, one is single VG99 patches balanced for levels that basically don't get altered (conceived of as individual instruments), and a no fx/amps instrument models only approach. Funny how revealing a live gig can be about what kind of sound is useful. But I have got a huge pedalboard, so the temptation to try to use the FX in the VG99 and ditch the extra massive pounds of cartage is ever present. Ack.

Anyway as I have said, Roland has a potentially huge target market with people playing Traditional/Country/Roots/Folk Rock music wanting to carry fewer instruments.  In Nashville they won't care if the gear is Japanese as long as it looks right, works well and sounds great (note the ubiquitous Takamine Acoustic-Electrics).  Ideas to better target this market, first off understand it exists.  Then arrange for traditional looking instruments like a "Roland Ready" version of your Gretcsh 5120/an Ibanez Artcore Hollowbody/Fender Telecaster (and Tremelos work better on GK guitars than they do on my Brian Moore). Then upgrade the firmware with 2 more banks of bend assignments in the Alt tuning section (making a 3 pedal steel guitar possible), put that Gretcsh pickup model back in the modeling menu, add *real* mandolin models, maybe a fiddle - and maybe a Peavey amp model.  <g>

Ok I'm kidding about the Peavey - kinda.  But maybe Roland could make a few specific Custom firmware releases as paid upgrades, "VG99 Nashville" firmware, "VG99 Top 40" firmware (I think I already have that one), something like that.  Upgrading to a possible 3 pedal steel, I would pay for.  Then some shop in Nashville would build us expression pedals with springs that work like real steel rod pedals...

Billy


Elantric

#15
I'm totally with you. A Session 400 Amp model - throw in a Magnatone with stereo vibrato, a Jim Kelly F.A.C.S  and I'm sold. I should use more time programming custom VG-99 patches that model those old vintage amps - hmmm . .  . 
In some respects the VG-88 was much better for alt tuning control - much better MIDI implementation - you could easily map any string to do any or all traditional pedal steel pitch bends. Too bad that its DSP is slow and has flutter artifacts when you go more than 2 steps of pitch change on the VG-88 - But at least it had the Gretsch COSM Guitar Model.
 
What the world needs is a quick release GK-3 external control box with snap on / snap off design.  -Then I'd install the Gk-3  control box on top of my Bigsby on my 6120. - but easily be able to remove at the end of the night so I can put the guitar back in its hardshell case.
Even  Roland's old 1987 era  GK-1 PU was removable in this manner - the new generation of Roland engineers in Japan  don't understand the problems that remain with the current external GK-3 design for a giging musician, and bitching about it to Roland USA has the same effect as complaining  to the cashier at the local McDonalds about the ingredients in a Big Mac.  Neither have  any control anymore on the products they sell, as those decisions are predetermined  further up stream.

Does Anyone speak Japanese here? - thats the only way we will get Roland Japan's attention.

I have 30 guitars (been playing 40 years - and attended too many sunday sales at NAMM shows! ) - three with GK hex PUs - but It used to piss me off that my prize $2500 Brian Setzer 6120 ends up working so well in my latest band - anytime I bring an alternate axe - the other guys tell me "Where's the Gretsch - it just sounds better!) and I have to agree.


I recently got a odd Yamaha 335 with three P-90s and a Bigsby - a Troy van Leeuwen model

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Yamaha-Troy-Van-Leeuwen-Signature-EG-Electric-Guitar?sku=512447
It has a good "vibe" about it. Nice 50's "C profile neck too.
  - I was going to do a GK-3 internal install on it.  - but it has to prove itself that it is worthy as a normal guitar first. 


fokof

My band  has a variety of version , from 8 pieces to 3 pieces , bass/gtr/vx wich gets alot of booking because it's cheaper and smaller footprint.
We use IEM as often as possible , we use a Yamaha board and use a split snake , so it acts as a monitor board that we control ourself.
One drawback ; the split snake costs as much as the board.... :'(

One BIG thing with IEM ;Shotguns mics. Cuts the "isolation" factor a lot.
The key is to get shotguns pointed at the crowd and blend it acordingly. Changes the feeling a lot!

Brent Flash

#18
Quote from: fokof on March 10, 2009, 08:06:52 AM
One BIG thing with IEM ;Shotguns mics. Cuts the "isolation" factor a lot.
The key is to get shotguns pointed at the crowd and blend it acordingly. Changes the feeling a lot!
Here is the newest/latest approach to what you are talking about. It adds some expense to the IEM rig but has some definite advantages, like talking to each other on stage. (Sometimes those shotgun mics don't pickup what you want them to.) This articles gives a new approach/point of view toward controlling ambient stage sound. The part about Sensaphonics 3D Active Ambient system is most interesting IMHO. http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/Daily/News/Re_Tooling_In_Ear_Monitoring.aspx

This article is about hearing health. http://www.audiologyonline.com/articles/article_detail.asp?article_id=2115

This article is about setting up an IEM system and talks about the ambient mics. http://www.livesoundint.com/archives/2003/june/ear/ear.php

This is just for informational purposes for those interested in what is being discussed here.

s0c9

"In-Ear Monitors On A Budget"  !!!!
They have got to be kidding !!

While IEM's are definitely cheaper than they used to be, a "proper" IEM system [even wired] is still not what I would consider a "budget" item.
The livesoundint article implies a budget IEM system.. yeah..if funded by the record label maybe !

A Yammy O1V [used] is around $2K.
A decent splitter snake [16+ channels] will run you around $600
The SRM600's "chosen" in the article are practically top-of-the-line wireless IEM's [only surpassed by the 700 series in the Shure line] and are $1100 each.
For a 4-piece band that's a mere $7000 and that's without custom ear molds or changing out the buds that come with the 600's !!!

For that much $$ [and often much less] many bar bands fund their entire PA system.. !!
That's what Samson, Nady, Kustom, Peavey, Mackie, B*ringer and others cater to. [NOTE: not diss'ing any vendor in that list, just used for illustration purposes]

OK, <end rant> yes, you can cut cost by going wired, or cut back to SRM200's [or other vendors unit], change the mixer, etc. but my point is [much as I like IEM's] the cost is still pretty darn high, and as a result my band "mates" won't touch it with a barge pole !
That's before we even really get into room ambience in the mix and...

Chumly

I've been using wired IEM's for years in my high-tech solo act, and at least some of you guys I feel are perhaps over-complicating, over-intellectualizing, and over-costing the simpler but still valid IEM configurations.

I make a sub-feed from an effects send and use the onboard headphone amp.  If I want main-out mix instead, that's easily achievable with a button push.  I was totally wireless for years and I found that being able to hear your mains mix at a distance is not as critical as one might think for the smaller rooms I play.  At least if you know your PA really well, and you have first class power and speakers, and you're not playing at high volumes, and you're talking the smaller rooms and you're a high-tech solo act, or duo, (or even an eDrum based trio with sequenced bass and keyboards running to a click).

I can, if I'm bored, record my input and play it back through the mains.  However because I use no back-line, and no what-I-would-call-acoustic-instruments outside of my singing, I've confirmed many times that I'm plenty close enough to WIHIWYH = "What I hear is what you hear".

I mean come, are we-all playing coliseum sized gigs or are we talking about a few nights per week within an hour's drive from home and you-all have day jobs as your primary income source?
I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. - Richard P. Feynman

A2theT

Hey Chumly,
Can you elaborate on your "high-tech solo act".

Cheers,
Andrew.
HEAVY on the METAL
Axe-Fx II, Roland VG-99 + FC-300, Roland GR-55, Digitech Jamman Stereo, Ibanez/ESP/Jackson Guitars

Chumly

I play guitar / guitar synth and sing many styles.  As to styles: rock, jazz, blues, folk, surf, reggae, instrumentals, TV themes, country, pop, R&B, punk, metal, MOR, AOR, etc. essentially Gershwin to Willie Nelson to Santana to Dick Dale to Joan Jett to Dwight Yoakam to John Cougar to Bruce Springsteen to Albert King to The Ventures...the list goes on and on!

As to gear:
Electrix Looper (MIDI master clock from lappy)
Laptop (outputting MIDI sequences, controllers, patch change, MIDI clock, sundry audio)
midiman USB MIDISPORT 8x8/s
Two Roland JV1010's (one for sequences one for guitar synth)
Axon AX100sb
Pod XT (I have a Boss GT8 I'm gonna switch to maybe)
Behringer FCB1010
QSC PLX1804
EV ZX5
Lighting
FMR RNC
Brian Moore i2.13
Mackie 1604 VLZ
Shure SCL3
DigiTech Vocalist Live 4 Harmonizer
AKG C420 headset

I'm watching Mad Men so I'm probably leaving out ancillary stuff stuff...but you get the gist I exhume.
I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. - Richard P. Feynman

s0c9

#23
All,

Over the last 2 months, my band has been attempting [for real this time] to go the In Ear Monitor ( IEM)  route. With current economic climate we are keeping costs down by going wired - drums, bass, keys and guitar are all stationary anyway - and stages are generally small in most bars. We already own the stage mixer, headphone amps + compressor/limiters.. so our only cost would be a splitter-snake. FWIW - the band is/are weekend warrior "variety" band who do NOT make a living doing this.

So, I've had my VG99 for some time now.. and have mainly "played" with it in the back room.  I like what it can do. So, thought the above opportunity would be great to replace my current live rig [L6 Flex3], since we're IEM and I don't need a stage monitor, yada, yada, yada. 

The idea was great, but making it happen ain't so easy. So here's my problem.

I have some great patches - many from contributors on this forum, some I've built myself.
The clean patches stand by themselves and are very evident in the (IEM) mix, but many (most?) of my distortion/lead patches are simply buried. They sound fine on their own, but play them with the band and they sound digital, unreal, and are just not "there".

I've tried real time EQ, even saving some of those changes, but they have sounded horrible when I get home and play the same patch later.. so had to restore from prior backup.  I've tried turning them up in the mix, and that is almost as bad. Hard to explain, but more volume doesn't seem to help either. They just do not cut thru or stand out  !!  So, I'm totally at a loss as to how to solve this issue. 

Anyone else resolved or even had this issue.  Advice and help MUCH wanted please.

TIA,
Steve

TheGuitarPlayer

#24
OK, your problem description is pretty generic.  Furthermore, I'm not super big on wishy-washy descriptions of sound ("just not there"??? what does that mean exactly).  That being said, I'm happy to try and help you.

I have pretty simple advice.  Firstly, make sure your GK sensitivity is correctly set, as I've found this can make a sizeable difference to how the guitar models respond.  Second, keep your patches as simple as you can.  In my experience, people can get crazy adding stacks of effects and eq's left right and center.  If all you want is a great lead tone, dial up your favourite guitar model and a great lead amp; that's all you should ever need.  Experiment with different output settings.  If your going straight into a desk, try setting the output to lineout first, and if that doesn't work for you, try combo return.

Most of the time, not being able to cut through for solos means there's not enough midrange in your sound.

Oh, and I congratulate you for trying to go the IEM route, I'd love to do that with my band.