Are Windows Tablets Ready for Prime Time?

Started by cooltouch, January 20, 2014, 12:37:35 AM

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cooltouch

I suppose I should preface the above subject by stating that, far as that goes, I consider most of the Internet to be not ready for primetime either because of the fact that random unpredictable spasmodic events can occur and just basically ruin a person's whole day if they aren't sufficiently prepared against such a possibility. Remnds me, in fact, of a Microsoft event I attended years ago, where Bill Gates himself got up in front of a very large crowd to demonstrate one of MS's latest pieces of software -- and about halfway through his presentation, it generated a BSOD and he had to reboot and pick up where he left off.  I laughed my ass off, as did many others in the room. Yeah, even today, I have my doubts about Windows being ready for Prime Time, but I've gotta admit that the OS is slowly becoming more reliable.

Specifically with regard to tablets, though, I'm curious just how well tablets using a Microsoft OS -- I'm assuming some sort of version of Win 8? -- operate as DAWs -- can they approach iOS products in terms of usability?  I did a search here on the topic, and didn't come up with much that was relevant to the point I was after, except maybe for this thread:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8781.msg63043#msg63043

The guy in that YouTube video claimed he loved his Windows-powered tablet and the way he was able to use . . .  what was it? Reaktor or something I?  All I know is I couldn't tell by listening to his examples. The crap he was playing back on his tablet was awful! It sounded like he had intentionally reduced the latency to too small a number, resulting in just a continuous, horrendous scratching staticky sound. And he loved it? Geauuchhh!

So anyway, I guess I'm hoping that some folks here have used a Windows tablet for music production and, if you have, what you think of it.

My cell-phone provider -- T-Mobile -- is still offering a deal where I can get an 8GB iPad MINI with the Retina screen for $0.00 initial outlay, and then $22/mo plus all the taxes and fees of course. I've been thinking really seriously about getting one because it's priced at a level I can afford -- $0 -- but I keep asking myself, Will I be happy with such a small surface, or will I soon be wishing I would have gotten a larger one?  So I've been telling myself maybe I should just wait until I can afford a regular sized iPad. I wish the folks that coded Android would get off their colllective duffs and solve Android's problems when it comes to sound production. Android stuff is considerably cheaper than Apple stuff. And, I tell myself, that Windows stuff will be cheaper as well. So that's why I'm asking about it. I figure if anybody has tried various pieces of music production software on a Windows tablet, it'll be the folks here.

I learned from my search that Windows has the 10 MIDI instrument limit, which I suppose can be a problem in some instances. Not sure it would be one for me. I'm more concerned with latency -- specifically how it would behave if I'm running my guitar through a digital audio interface, and whether I can get the latency down to a liveable number. And, of course, how quiet a Windows tablet would be -- no pops or crackles, in other words.

Any observations you'd care to offer would be appreciated.

Best,
Michael

gumtown

There are two flavours of Windows tablet, the cut down cheep ones (RT surface) which run Windows 8.1 RT - keep away from these, the operating system is very cut back, and they are about as good as an Android tablet, no good for D.A.W stuff.
The others are a full spec 64-bit i7 intel Quad core, same as a desktop PC or a laptop, they basically are a laptop with a removable touch screen, or other types have a fold away keyboard.
Not sure where you heard about Windows only has a 10 instument limit? Maybe back in the 80's with MSDos, i was running 32 track+ sequencers with 1993 era windows 3.1
Latency is down to just a few milliseconds.

Your iPad's and Androids have very tiny processors compared to an intel i7 (same CPU used by windows PC's and Mac's), the iPad is marginally better, with the latest iPad Air stepping up to 64 bit and multi tasking enabled.
The ipads are more efficient being a closed archtechture system.

I would not bother with the 8GB iPad mini (which has similar resolution to a regular iPad4 but is only smaller), 8GB is not much, when you substract the space the operating system takes for itself, you will be left with enough for a handful of applications (app's) of about 4~5 GB,
it's basically only useful as a web browser and a few photos, and maybe record two songs with garageband.

These are my own oppinions, and welcome any corrections if i'm wrong, i think you will be surprised at how stable the windows operating system is these days.
I have not had my iPad Air hang on me yet, but my Mountain Lion Mac has had it's share of glitches that only the power button could fix, and my Android tablet does strange and bizar things all on it's own, and my windows 7 laptop has yet to show a BSOD.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

datsunrobbie

There is another flavor of Windows 8.1 tablet out now besides the Windows RT (avoid, in my opinion) and the Intel i7 convertibles (very cool, but pricey). The ASUS T100 is a 10" tablet running Windows 8.1 on an Atom processor. I have not tried recording with mine yet, but it runs Gumtown's Floorboard editor for the GR-55 quite nicely, and overall response has been much better than I expected.

mbenigni

#3
I've written pretty extensively on this topic, on this forum and elsewhere. I've been from iOS to Windows 8 and back (and lived to tell the tale LOL) so I can offer some well-informed opinions.  They weren't cheap to come by...

You're kind of asking a lot of different, complex questions above.  As for sound quality, latency, etc. the short answer is... It depends, primarily on your audio interface.  Provided the tablet in question has a USB 2 port, you can research this just as you would for any desktop PC. If you only have a USB 3 port, then be careful to choose an interface that behaves well with one.

The matters of application availability and usability are a little more interesting, and it's here that iOS pulls ahead IMO. A tablet running Windows 8 proper (as opposed to RT) will run any windows app you're familiar with from the desktop PC world. However, they won't be easy to use without a mouse and keyboard, which begs the question: why a tablet and not a laptop?  And back in the touchscreen-friendly Metro world, there just aren't any apps of interest to musicians. Whether this is a result of the smaller market or some technical limitation, I can't say.

You might want to skim this thread where I try very hard to like a Surface Pro, and explore these limitations in more detail. Worth noting that I'm typing on an iPad right now. :)

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8054.0

mbenigni

Actually just skimmed through that thread myself, and was surprised to find that I was still pretty pro-windows tablet (hopeful at any rate) when we stopped the discussion. Since then, I've lost patience with the bizarre windows 8 UI and dearth of touch-friendly music production apps.  In that time, iOS has offered up the likes of Bias and Cubasis, making the decision something of a no-brainer, for me anyway.

Elantric

#5
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/used-ipad

More info here on the old 10 MIDI Instrument limit in Windows  - (and how to solve).
http://www.rme-audio.de/en_support_techinfo.php?page=content/support/en_support_faq_10entryd

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/615222-windows-7-midi-problem-inactive-midi-devices.html

QuoteDuring the first attempt to do the Win XP 10 MIDI devices trick, there were no MIDI 1 - MIDI 9 devices in the register. After next restart all MIDI 1-9 appeared ... interesting.

The conclusion is following:

- Windows 7 have the same MIDI bug as Windows XP (max 10 MIDI devices - Thanks Bill !) All information that since Vista there is no such a problem is a Bull S***. It is still there.
- I had to delete the MIDI1-MIDI9 devices in the register Fixing Windows XP MIDI Port Problems, Craig Anderton
- This adjustment did not solved the problem with MS20 and Microsampler
- Now I have to start the computer with Korgs disconnected from USB
- All MOTU interfaces and NI interfaces start OK (visible, active)
- Then connect the Korg (physically the cable, it is still active despite the power switch is off)) ... and here we go, everything works (but I am pretty disgusted with the disconnecting/connecting cables

- I am affraid of testing the same with M-Audio Venom (now connected to my second Apple eMac via USB to have the editor), since I do not trust in M-Audio drivers ...


New question: Is there a software/hardware solution for delayed switch of USB port on? (I really hate the cable disconnecting)

http://www.harmonycentral.com/t5/Technology-Computers/Solving-the-Windows-MIDI-Port-Problem/ba-p/34667124

Does the XP MIDI Port Limitation Still Exist in Windows 7? It Sure Seems that Way . . .
by Craig Anderton


I don't like to write articles that describe what may be a solution to what may be a problem, but I don't really have a choice . . . let me explain.

Windows XP originally had a limit of 10 MIDI ports. If you exceeded that amount, MIDI devices simply wouldn't show up as available in DAWs and other programs. I believe this was eventually increased to 32 ports, but still, if you exceeded the limit you needed to dive into the registry and delete unused or duplicate ports. Part of the problem was from Windows creating duplicate ports if you plugged a USB MIDI device into different USB ports. Remembering to plug a device into the same port each time you used it, and deleting any duplicates, was an easy way to free up ports.

I recently tried installing Korg's KONTROL software and USB-MIDI driver for the nano- and microKEY series devices, and while Korg's driver software showed the devices as existing and connected, the KONTROL software insisted they weren't connected. This seemed like the problem I'd run into before with port limitations when programs couldn't access something that was connected.

Google was of limited help, but the general consensus seemed to be that the port limitation problem still persisted in versions of Windows past XP, even though some thought there was an unlimited number of ports. Who knows? If someone reading this has a definitive answer, let me know so I can update this article.

Anyway, I tried the "XP registry diving" approach, but that didn't work with Windows 7. However, on the Cakewalk forums, I found a very simple batch process that lets you see hidden devices in Device Manager. Simply type the following in Notepad and save it as a .BAT file (e.g., Hidden.BAT):


set devmgr_show_nonpresent_devices=1
start Devmgmt.msc


Now double-click on the .BAT file; this opens Device Manager. Go View > Show hidden devices, then open Sound, Video, and Game Controllers. A little speaker icon to the left of each item will be solid if the device is connected, and grayed out if not.

Note that the following picture shows two entries for the Line 6 POD HD500. With the HD500 plugged in, one driver was active, and the other was not. So I right-clicked on the grayed-out driver, and chose Uninstall. A dialog box showed a checkbox for deleting the driver software; I believe you need to leave it unchecked so as not to render the "real" port inoperable.




I found multiple duplicates for multiple pieces of gear, and deleted them. After doing so, the Korg KONTROL software worked perfectly. So while I can't guarantee this solved the problem, or if it's the optimal way to do so, the problem was nonetheless resolved.

Again, let me emphasize this all falls under the "gee, I dunno, I guess it works" category, so I'd welcome any comments from people who have a definitive answer for all this!

cooltouch

Thanks for the feedback, guys. To sum things up rather sloppily, it sounds like Windows tablets -- the better ones, I'm assuming -- fall into a category that Jerry Pournelle often referred to as Real Soon Now in his old Byte magazine columns. I wonder how many years I should plan on holding my breath. The problem with us electronic musicians, I fear, is that we're way too small of a market segment that demands way too much out of the hardware such that we're lucky that a manufacturer pays any attention to us at all, I suppose. But then, Apple gear has always catered to the artist -- I just wish they'd pay more attention to the Starving Artist and a little less to Billboard's Top 100 and those who wish to emulate them.

I'll confess to having a dual purpose in mind with whatever tablet it will be that I buy. I'm not just a musician, I'm a visual artist. I have a digital drawing tablet, but I have just never gotten used to drawing somewhere where my eye isn't looking.  You know what I mean?  My daughter is an excellent artist, and she's totally comfortable with staring at her monitor as she sketches away happily on her Wacom tablet. But I just find it to be too awkward.  But! With an electronic tablet, whether it be an iPad or even a Samsung Note, I can load software that will display the image as it is being drawn, and of course, a fairly wide palette of drawing instruments and colors can be selected from as well. So whatever pad or tablet I wind up with, it's gonna have to do a pretty decent job at dual duty.  I've seen a Windows "tablet" that's been advertized recently that is as one of you described -- a screen with a detachable keyboard and mouse. I wouldn't have a problem using this sort of system as long as I'll be able to manipulate content on the screen -- provided of course that it'll handle music the way I'll need. And speaking of which, my music production software of choice is, and remains Cakewalk Sonar -- currently I'm using X2 -- so whatever I go with in a Windows system, it would have to be able to handle that. For an iOS system, I really don't have any idea what is hot right now. But at a minimum it would have to support musical notation and MIDI.
Best,
Michael

Elantric

QuoteBut then, Apple gear has always catered to the artist -- I just wish they'd pay more attention to the Starving Artist and a little less to Billboard's Top 100 and those who wish to emulate them.

Spend $350 on a Used iPad 3 32GB , and go make music.

cooltouch

Hmm, good point. I hadn't thought to check used. Don't know why I haven't, though -- my iPod touch 4g 8GB I bought off eBay for about $70. Now all I have to do is scrounge up an extra $350.


Best,
Michael

Elantric

#9
Quotemy iPod touch 4g 8GB I bought off eBay for about $70

Well - you can already  do a lot of Music and MIDi with a iPod touch 4g.

I would get nano studio for $14,
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/nanostudio/id382263651?mt=8






and an iRig Pro
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/iRigPro/




and re-read the excellent advice from SuperNiCd here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9976.msg71743#msg71743
QuoteI'll add my thoughts cooltouch.  I use an iPad a LOT.  I'm actually  on my third one:  have a 1, 3, and now a 5 (iPad air).  I use it for work and email, web browsing, music, you name it.  It's in my hands frequently.

If you want to start using a tablet or phone for music stuff today, get an Apple device - it's pretty much a non-question.  Android is just not there yet from everything I've read.  The audio system is just not up to snuff - there are latency issues, etc.  There are not many music apps for Android.  There are enough iOS music apps to spend a small fortune on, even at $0.99-$50 each - many of them VERY sophisticated at this point.  Look through the Sweetwater catalog for music related accessories for phones/tablets.  It's all Apple stuff.  The music industry has latched onto iOS big time.  It just has NOT happened in Android or Windows land at this point in time, and I think it will take a while to catch up.

iPad vs (iPod, iPhone) & mini - If you want to do music I would get an iPad.  Some (not all) music apps are iPad only, but the reverse is not true.  Anything that will run on an iPod/phone will run on the iPad even if it isn't optimized to take advantage of the larger screen - it'll still work.  I've never had a mini.  From what I've read all the iPad apps will work on it too.

As far as music on iOS - it is really, really coming of age.  Not quite up to where the desktop computers are at, but the gap is closing every day.  DAWs such as Auria and Cubasis are very feature rich.  You can definitely mix and master a song in them.  Synthesizers in particular - there are some fantastic apps available.  Waldorf's Nave at $20 is an amazing wave table synth.  I honestly would have expected to pay more than the cost of the Ipad and the app for a synth like this.  I would say at this point that I use the iPad for music than my desktop DAW machine, because I can take it anywhere and work on something whenever I have a few free minutes.

Elantric has a great list of apps here.  I have quite a few of those.  I'd also add as a few more favorites:

-Waldorf Nave
-Magellan
-Galileo
-Sunrizer
-Animoog (by Moog Music)
-Arturia iSEM
-Addictive Synth (additive synthesis)
-TF7 (FM synthesis)
-Thor (by Propellorhead)
-Nanostudio
-Guitarism
-DM1 Drum machine
-DrumStudio
-Drums XD
-Different Drummer
-Amplitube
-AmpKit+
...

And the list goes on.  Those are just some off the top of my head.

Good luck with your decision, and if you decide to pull the trigger, enjoy!

mbenigni

Quote from: cooltouch on January 20, 2014, 10:43:18 PM
I have just never gotten used to drawing somewhere where my eye isn't looking.

I have to admit, sketching/painting on the Surface Pro with the included stylus (and the included metro app - I think it's simply called Paint) is actually a lot of fun.  Personally, I prefer the precision of a mouse over a stylus for any visual work on a computer, but if you are going to use a stylus, then putting it right to the screen is definitely more intuitive.  However the accuracy in terms of location, pressure sensitivity, etc. might not be sufficient for your needs.  The high-end Wacom stuff is probably much better than what MS bundles.

If Cakewalk is an important app for you, then I think you should just go with a good x86 laptop with touchscreen.  They're a dime a dozen these days, and available at good prices.  The tablets/convertibles are all comparatively expensive, and you'll never use Cakewalk effectively without a mouse/keyboard anyway.  (This despite the fact that they are the first company to embrace touchscreen features in a Windows DAW.)

If you happen to decide to go with a Windows tablet, PM me.  We might be able to work out a price on my (barely) used Surface Pro 128G (first generation).

cooltouch

Thanks for the info, mbenigni.  I composed the following post prior to reading yours. So yeah, I might be getting a hold of you in the very near future. Here's the post:

Okay, recent update: Right now, I have just a little over $500 to spend. So, let's assume I can pick up a 32GB iPad 3 for about $350. With the remaining $150, I can pick up an iKM iRig Pro, and at that point I will be finished spending. So I'm wondering what else I'll need to add to this rig as I can afford it. I can safely add the Nano Studio for $14. But there's a problem with it. It doesn't offer or support musical notation, by the looks of things. Whatever music production based app I go with, it must offer and support musical notation.

I went to the Apple store and did a search on 'ipad "musical notation,"' and I got one hit four times -- IOW, four different Apple catalog entries or articles describing the same piece of software: Logic Pro X. Upon reading a description of all it does, it appears that an iPad can be used, but only as a portable controller of the software as it's running on a Mac. I'm not satisfied with this for a couple of reasons: 1, I don't own a Mac, and 2, I'm no longer portable with this system unless I were to get a Mac laptop with enough horsepower to run Logic Pro X. And I can't afford a Mac anything right now, unless I could pick up a system for dirt cheap.

Speaking of dirt cheap Macs, I have one that a neighbor left behind when he moved, but it's a Power Mac dating back to the 1990s, and its running OS9. I read somewhere that it's possible to install OS 10 on this machine, but it requires some additional software or a special sort of installation technique -- I forget now exactly what has to be done. Even so, though, it's old and may not meet Logic Pro X's minimum requirements. I wouldn't mind owning a Mac, but I just can't afford to pay that sort of premium for a 'puter. Unless I could get a G4 -- or equivalent -- to work. That was a hot machine when it was first released some 15 years ago or so. But I see G4s selling for fairly cheap nowadays, like for less than $100, which is an amount I can usually scrape together, given enough notice. But still, I'm losing portability and even if I were to get a G4-based laptop, the portability option is being called into question: having to lug around two computer-based products and their separate power supplies (just to be safe in case I start running out of juice wherever I might be), along with a guitar and its interface and cabling.

I have just the standard iRig. Been dragging my feet about spending more on one of the more full-featured models, though. That pro looks pretty nice. About the only feature they showed that I'd use regularly would be the midi port. I watched a video just now from Sweetwater Music about the iRig Pro. Honestly, it sounded as if he were describing my Alesis iO2 -- except the Alesis is USB only, whereas the iRig Pro supports Lightening, 30pin, and USB. But is that a significant enough difference for me to want to shell out $150?

I'm mostly concerned with not being able to find any software for the iPad that offers musical notation. When I visit the store at iTunes and search for 'music notation recording ipad' I get only one hit -- a $0.99 app called ScoreCloud Express HD. It's an app for generating music files using musical notation only and supports monophonic input only! Geez, no thanks.
So I must say, not being able to find any music production software that supports musical notation has definitely taken the bloom off the iPad rose for me. I think I'll take a closer look at the Windows products.

I can get something like this for $250:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Windows-Surface-Tablet-with-32GB-Memory-10-6-Surface-32GB-/181303933838?pt=US_Tablets&hash=item2a368e7b8e

Onto which I could just install my copies of Sonar X2 and Band in a Box 2014 (along with RealBand, which is a decent DAW application). And with the money left over, I could buy a good interface, like a FocusRite Scarlett or equivalent, and get rid of that Alesis iO2.

I'm not all that fond of the idea of buying a Windows-based anything, but it appears now that this is the only choice I have. I suppose if I were a Linux/Unix weenie, I might give Ubuntu or equivalent a look, but I barely get Linux at all, even though I love the concept of there being a true Windoze alternative.

Best,
Michael

datsunrobbie

That Surface tablet you linked to runs Windows RT, so it won't run your Windows programs. If you want a real Windows 8.1 tablet in the sub $400 range, I recommend the ASUS T100 64GB. I got one for Christmas and have been very happy with it so far.

Elantric

#13
QuoteI can get something like this for $250:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Windows-Surface-Tablet-with-32GB-Memory-10-6-Surface-32GB-/181303933838?pt=US_Tablets&hash=item2a368e7b8e

Onto which I could just install my copies of Sonar X2



However that type computer above  Will not work - as datsunrobbie notes - its a "Windows RT" operating system running on an ARM CPU- which is totally incompatible with anything we talk about here - including Sonar X2
http://www.infoworld.com/t/microsoft-windows/windows-rt-who-loves-ya-baby-217708

QuoteI went to the Apple store and did a search on 'ipad "musical notation,"' and I got one hit four times

I just google "Ipad Music Notation"
http://createdigitalmusic.com/2013/10/digital-notation-like-imagined-itd-work-draw-iphone-ipad-android/

http://ipadmusiced.wordpress.com/2013/10/02/new-notation-app-does-handwritten-music/
http://www.finalemusic.com/products/finale-songbook/
http://www.reflowapp.com/en
http://www.reflowapp.com/en/free

http://ipadmusiced.wordpress.com/2013/08/09/creating-music-notation-on-an-ipad/
Symphony Pro


On iPad there are several Music notation apps (Notion or Progression)
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/notion/id475820434?mt=8


Notion  / Progression was mentioned as a reply to an earlier post of yours here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6204.msg70378#msg70378
  - although none are built-in into a powerful DAW like Auria or Cubasis


Quotehave just the standard iRig. Been dragging my feet about spending more on one of the more full-featured models, though. That pro looks pretty nice. About the only feature they showed that I'd use regularly would be the midi port. I watched a video just now from Sweetwater Music about the iRig Pro. Honestly, it sounded as if he were describing my Alesis iO2 -- except the Alesis is USB only, whereas the iRig Pro supports Lightening, 30pin, and USB. But is that a significant enough difference for me to want to shell out $150?


I mentioned the iRig Pro simply because this works very well providing 24 bit audio Input and MIDI input to the iPod touch 4g (with 30pin doc) you said you already own. I DO NOT recommend ANY Guitar interfaces that use the 3.5mm Headset jack - all are junk full of noise and feedback on high gain guitar amp sims.

Read the recommended Audio Interface thread here for details
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8291.0

If you do end up with an iPad - then look no further than this thread for the hot ticket for 24bit iPad / full 5pin DIN MIDI I/O Interface around $200.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10323.msg74428#msg74428
 
Many misunderstand the fact that an Apple iPad/iPhone/iPod Touch will use core audio / MIDI  built into the IOS operating system  - and thus deliver professional level low latency and good timing.

https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/MusicAudio/Conceptual/CoreAudioOverview/WhatisCoreAudio/WhatisCoreAudio.html

https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/MusicAudio/Conceptual/CoreAudioOverview/CoreAudioEssentials/CoreAudioEssentials.html

If you were to run statistics today - you would see that for "Music Tablet" computers  - the Apple iPad owns a 85% share today (early 2014).

And I'm no stranger to Tablet computers - at my day gig we have a system that employs the latest Samsung Tab3's and Dell XPS12 Win8.1 Tablets as well as iPads - for music apps I want to run, nothing competes nor comes close to what I can do with an ipad.

Android 4.2 still has very high latency, over 200ms delay between striking a note and hearing a sound output.

Windows 8.1 tablets all have USB 3.0 ports and those have big problems with USB audio interfaces.

Myself - i currently use a 2012 Macbook Pro Retina to run Apple Logic-X, Protools 10, Reaper.
I play by ear, so Music Notation is not that big a deal to me.
I still view the whole "Music Tablet" concept as an accessory to my main music DAW  - if I was rich I would just use my Macbook Pro with its SSD drives at live gigs to run the Amp sim of the day, and manage my live show with Mainstage. But if it got lost or stolen off a bandstand,  Id be out around $2.5K to replace it.

Ipads are cheaper, suit live gig situations better, and suit my mobile needs when I cant bring my MBP. And i can replace it cheaper than my Macbook pro.


But if you are too far entrenched into Sonar  - read the Sonar user forums for a recommended laptop. I suggest an Intel I5 CPU as a minimum.
http://forum.cakewalk.com/SONAR-X-Series-f57.aspx

http://www.studiotrax.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=127

http://homerecording.com/bbs/user-forums-brand/cakewalk-sonar-forum/

http://forum.cakewalk.com/Please-point-me-to-a-good-computer-OPTIMIZATION-thread-m2968994.aspx
   

datsunrobbie

The ASUS T100 has a microUSB 2.0 port in the tablet and USB 3.0 in the detachable keyboard. I have not tried recording with it yet, but I have used it with Gumtown's Floorboard Editor, which works nicely on the USB 2.0 port. The USB 3.0 port does not recognize the GR-55.

Elantric

#15
Just for reference - This Laptop should run Sonar X2 OK

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834314065&clickid=wFF2XPVzE0AbzDN1ksw1-X-uUkT3C2RNy1YrW80&iradid=97618&ircid=2106&irpid=10531&nm_mc=AFC-IR&cm_mmc=AFC-IR-_-na-_-na-_-na
Newegg has the refurbished Acer Aspire M5-581T-6807 3rd Generation Intel Core i5 15.6" Ultrabook Laptop (Silver) for $350 with free shipping. Weighs 5.7 lbs. Windows 8 64-bit installed.

Intel Core i5-3317U 1.7GHz, 6GB DDR3, 500GB HDD + 20GB SSD
15.6" LED 1366 x 768, 802.11b/g/n, BT 4.0+HS, 2 x USB 3.



Even has the now hard to find a mix of USB 3.0 ports and one USB 2.0 Port - so its good for USB Audio Interfaces

read all specs here:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834314065&clickid=wFF2XPVzE0AbzDN1ksw1-X-uUkT3C2RNy1YrW80&iradid=97618&ircid=2106&irpid=10531&nm_mc=AFC-IR&cm_mmc=AFC-IR-_-na-_-na-_-na

Observe bulk of negative reviews are focused on hatred of Windows 8 OS, not necessarily the laptop

cooltouch

#16
Okay! One thing I knew for certain -- you guys would come through with all sorts of useful info.

Thanks for catching my slip on that link I posted. I knew RD wouldn't work, but in my excitement I failed to check and see if it would. The ASUS T-100 that Datsunrobbie mentions is a nice looking machine. Plus, I can pick it up for $319 at B&H, who seem to be the cheapest of the obvious places to look.

I'm kinda with Elantric, sympathetically at least -- I would much rather own an iPad -- even the 3rd Generation one does some awesome stuff.  One thing I left out and I don't know why is, when I was doing my searches, the searches were actually for 'ipad musical notation recording'. Adding in that one extra word, at iTunes for example, reduced the hits from dozens to one. That cheesy monophonic piece of junk. Using an app that will convert to MIDI is do-able for me because then I can just import the MIDI file. In fact, I've used Pro Audio 9 (Sonar's immediate predecessor) with a MIDI notation-based sequencer with my early works and imported a lot of MIDI as I was working on my first two CDs. But as I got more comfortable with Pro Audio's staff interface, which worked much the same as Sonar's does now, I used the sequencer less and less. It was much more convenient to have the notation option inside the production software, where I used it editorially. And that's basically why I would like to have notation capabilities within the software I'm using to produce the final product.

I haven't given up entirely on using an iPad. I remain hopeful that I can come up with a pairing of two apps that will work closely together -- one being musical notation with MIDI output and the other being a versatile product like Nano Studio. But this raises another question: if I use an ipad in this manner, will it be possible to export the music in a way that Sonar can integrate into its system?  Or perhaps I should ask -- will I even need to export the music to Sonar?  Is the quality of an app such as Nano Studio sufficient for mastering a CD? Or is Nano Studio good enough such that I can port a file it produces to an app or product that can handle the mastering?

I'm not really "entrenched" into Sonar. It's just that Sonar is the only music production software package that I know how to use that supports musical notation. I know CuBase does, but I haven't ever been able to get CuBase to work for me. I mean, I can't even convince it to use the audio drivers that are currently active. It refuses to open them. Plus, I've tried -- unsuccessfully to just open a project so I can just take a look at the way it handles music notation. No such luck. I can't get to first base with CuBase. Hey, that sounds like a slogan for Cakewalk or Pro Tools or somebody. Guess I'm not Teutonic enough. Presonus, which produces Studio One, a DAW app that looks a whole lot like Sonar in some ways and is completely different in others, recently bought out Notion. The early plans I've read are that it intends to integrate Notion's Notation package into Studio One, which is solid good news, if this comes to pass.  Band in a Box has, within the past few years apparently, introduced a product called RealBand. The interface looks just a whole lot like earlier versions of BiaB, but from what I understand, it is a DAW application. I just recently upgraded to BiaB 2014 so I have a copy of RealBand now, and I intend to spend some time with it. RealBand supports musical notation. And I'm sure it will be easier to get it to work if get stuck than CuBase, although it will probably be just as confusing, but in an "eh?" sort of way. (sorry, my attempt at humor) At least BiaB has a forum full of friendly folks -- hey, an alliteration! -- which should help if I get stuck. I have called upon their expertise quite recently over a problem I was having with BiaB and we found a way to get me unstuck.

Regarding just using a laptop to run Sonar, etc., I'm already way ahead of you. Although that Acer that you just posted info about looks very tempting. Currently, however, I have on extended loan from my daughter a laptop she no longer uses. Because of her profession, she stays much closer to the cutting edge in computing than I do. So I have her "old" laptop to play with, which despite its diminutive size, is almost as fast as my DAW. It's a Dell Studio XPS with the 13" screen and the Intel Core 2 Duo P8600 2.4GHz processor, with 4 Gigs of RAM, running 64-bit Win7. I guess it's about four years old now? It's upgradable to 8 Gigs of RAM, which I will probably do just to insure that the CPU has plenty of headroom.  But even with "just" 4 gigs of RAM, it handles Sonar just fine. My old laptop, which I guess is pushing 8 years old now, is a Gateway and only handles 2 gigs of RAM. It's CPU is "only" 1.7 GHz, but its biggest drawback is it supports only 2 Gigs of RAM. I get occasional pops and crackles using Sonar with it during playback. Fruity Loops v10? Fuggedaboudit. Sounds like a popcorn machine. I still use that old laptop a lot though. It has a 17" screen and full size keyboard with a separate 10-key pad, a formula which has been hard-wired into my brain. The screen resolution, memory, and CPU are good enough for watching Netflix, which suits me just fine. The sound chip on that old Gateway is surprisingly good, though. It out-performs a Creative Audigy PCMCIA card I bought for it a while back. Glad I didn't pay much for that Creative card.

So anyway, my original intention was to set the laptop up to use for live gigs -- me, my computer, guitars, and PA system. I've been working on Band in a Box tunes and tweaking settings so I could use them in a live scenario. The idea being to eventually have a song list, maybe organized by sets, I dunno yet, where I could just punch up a tune on the laptop and there ya go. Tell ya what, with BiaB 2014, the chances of being able to get the best possible sounds for this sort of act are better than ever. And then you guys start filling my mind up with all this iOS glitter and now I'm not so sure I want to use just that laptop anymore. Hmmm . . . maybe using both won't be such a bad idea after all.

Man-o-man, I tell ya what -- GAS strikes in all forms and sizes, it does.

Okay well this post is long winded enough. Did I miss anything? Probably.
Best,
Michael

Elantric

#17
See link above your recent post

and FWIW - we have a group buy for Tripelplay - and that includes a fee software bundle of Presonus StudioOne, and Notion progression

Check your PM

mbenigni

#18
Well... your posts cover a lot of territory fast so I won't even try to touch on all those points.  Ultimately, you have to decide specifically what you want to do (and perhaps what software you'll use to do it) before you start targeting specific hardware products.  Otherwise you will chase your tail long enough that the entire landscape will change under your feet.

To your last point, "maybe using both won't be such a bad idea after all" - I set out early last year to unify all of my computing tasks on one device, the Surface Pro.  Speaking with complete honesty (and despite the fact that I'd love to sell mine to you or anyone else) it was not a fruitful experience.  As much as I get frustrated by the complexity of having to shuffle files around between different computers and devices, there's a value in using the right device for the right environment and application.  There's also no getting around the fact that some of the software available for iOS isn't available anywhere else - especially if having something very portable and touch-friendly is important to you.  (Stop and think about that question, because maybe it's not.)  For my part, after chasing my own tail for over a year and spending probably a couple thousand dollars with next to 0 productivity, I've gone back to my old reasonably powerful desktop, and a new iPad Air, and I wish I'd stayed on that track all along.

Now I'll speculate briefly again, about your needs:  you keep bringing up Sonar and notation software, and my gut reaction to this is that no touchscreen interface is ever going to make you as happy as a good old fashioned mouse and keyboard.  So I see a PC, or possibly a Mac in your future.  Whether that should be a desktop or a laptop depends on whether you need to take this functionality on the road or out to gigs.  But I'm still not hearing anything specifically to indicate that you need a tablet.

cooltouch

Elantric, I took a closer look at that Acer offering and decided against it. I think that anybody who is considering buying it should be aware of two things: 1) it has only a 90-day warranty. Unlike many/most factory refurbs that get the full manufacturer's warranty, this POS doesn't. And I think there's a good reason why. Just 2) read the reviews. It has an average 2 out of 5 possible 'eggs.' There are 11 reviews, 9 of which complain about the machine breaking and/or falling apart either within the 90-day period or just outside of it. Look at the 1.5tb optional drive they offer. Regular manufacturer's warranty? Nope. 90 days. I wouldn't touch that stuff with your 10-foot pole.

Besides, I really don' t think I need to be looking at a laptop upgrade just yet. And when I do upgrade, I have a few specific requirements, which include a wide screen and a full-size keyboard with the 10-key touch pad. I keep hearing dreadful things about Win8. My entire exposure to it is limited to playing around with display computers at Costco and MicroCenter. Once you get past that lame-ass front end, it doesn't seem to be too bad. Plus I understand it has a "classic mode," which I have my computers, which all run Win7, set to. My desktop dual boots to either Win7 or XP and I even have the XP partition set to "classic mode." So anyway as long as Win8 functions properly in classic mode, I reckon I can live with it. If I can't, I'll just install Win7 on it. Occasionally I'll see non-refurb laptops go on sale for not much more than what that Acer is selling for.

But you have to keep an eye out for the specs. Recently I noticed a nice Widescreen HP with the 10-key pad selling for about $400 and I gave it a closer look, only to discover that it has almost the exact same specs as my 8-year-old Gateway: 1.7GHz processor, 2GB Ram, a fairly small hard drive, probably around 150GB or so, and just a generic video processor. The only advantage it had over my Gateway was the capability of a maximum of 4 gigs RAM -- although it had only 2 gigs installed. About a year ago, I replaced my Gateway's 160GB hard drive with a 500 GB hard drive, so in that respect, my Gateway is better than that "new" (but really about 8 years old, technology wise) HP.

So I'm just gonna continue to use my daughter's Dell. It's not comfortable to use for me because of its 13" screen and compact keyboard, but it has more than enough power for my needs.

Mbenigni, your most recent post is still resonating inside my head. You remind me of various times in the past where I ended up chasing my own tail, only to discover, after the dust had settled, that nothing had really changed except I was several hundred dollars poorer. I can't afford to make that mistake again. The fundamental issue for me right now, at least the way I see it, is that I simply don't know enough about iOS products to know what it is that I don't know. I've owned an 8GB iPod 4G for a little over a year, for which I've purchased the standard iRig, and with which I've just played around some using the free iKM apps like Amplitube, etc. I guess I just look at that tiny thing and don't expect much from it. But apparently I shouldn't do that. At least a tablet has some size to it and a screen that I don't have to use a magnifying glass just to see what's going on. And I guess that size, coupled with the fact that there is a growing number of apps that are exclusive to the iPad, are some of the reasons why I'm looking seriously at the iPad 3, which Elantric initially suggested. As I read through the iPad 3's features, I was amazed at what that device is capable of. So put all those together and maybe you can see why I've become interested in it.

But I don't know enough about it to know how well it will work in a live environment. I have to take the word of others -- however, I consider Elantric's word to be "WORD," if you know what I mean, even if I don't know exactly how he's utilizing it. But the mere fact that he's successfully using it in a live environment speaks volumes to me and I'm sure I can duplicate his methods should I desire to.

I keep bringing up Sonar and notation software because that is the way I compose music. I do not sit down to one of my keyboard or with my guitar and bang out songs. I may hit on a melodic device or sequence of chords on either instrument, but I will then score it out in musical notation, add instruments, develop the theme, melody and harmonic structure all within the confines of the score. And when I feel the need to edit or rearrange things, I am comfortable moving blocks of the score around as I rearrange things to meet what I'm hearing inside my head. That's one of the things I like so much about my Roland GR-33. I can play a chord sequence or improvise or whatever on the guitar, but once its track is inside the Sonar environment, I can do anything to it I wish. I'll edit out mistakes and/or modify parts or add to them, whatever.  I know this is all possible to accomplish using the piano roll, but I don't get the piano roll. I've tried using it a couple of times and it just felt weird.

Now Elantric pointed out that there are quite a few good apps for iOS that are all about music notation, and I sort of peripherally was aware of this when I was searching for an equivalent, let's say, to Nano Studio that has musical notation covered. My intention is to go back and look over these apps closer with my iPod and see if there are any that I particularly like. I'm sure there are several at least. I've even found one decent Android app for scoring out music that I've loaded into my Samsung Galaxy S4.

But you get right down to addressing the fundamental issues in your final paragraph, and they circle around this notion I have in my head about portability. And I guess I gotta ask myself this: if I'm not using any of this gear in a live music environment, do I really need the portability? And the answer to that is a qualified yes, but mostly for another reason entirely. As I mentioned in a post here on the 21st, I am not just a musician, I am a visual artist and whatever tablet I end up with must support a live-drawing feature, namely where I can look at the screen and see what I'm drawing on it immediately. I want a tablet/pad for artwork almost as much as I do for my music. So having a pad that I can take anywhere and with which I can produce my artwork is very liberating. If I do it the traditional way, I must carry a large pad of paper, and either a big box of colored drawing pencils or pens, or pastels, or even acrylics and brushes if I want to mess with wet media. Then, once I've found a location, I have to set everything up so that it's all conveniently to hand, etc.  And only then can I get down to the business of composition. Whereas with an iPad, let's say, all I need is the pad and a stylus and a comfortable place to sit, and I'm in business.

The $500 arrived today. So I have some decisions to make. And the way things are looking right now, I'm leaning toward a clean iPad 3 with plenty of memory, plus a good interface to go along with it. Maybe the iRig Pro, maybe something else that I'll be able to use with my laptop's USB port as well. The link that Elantric mentions in one of his previous posts, namely where he sez:

If you do end up with an iPad - then look no further than this thread for the hot ticket for 24bit iPad / full 5pin DIN MIDI I/O Interface around $200.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10323.msg74428#msg74428

The link takes you to a comprehensive review of one of my favorites, the Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, plus various peripherals that make its use with an iPad possible, or at least convenient.
So yeah, it looks like the hot ticket, which should cover all my bases no matter which direction I take things. Or so it seems to me.

Another long one. Oh well.


Best,
Michael

mbenigni

QuoteBut I don't know enough about it to know how well it will work in a live environment. I have to take the word of others -- however, I consider Elantric's word to be "WORD," if you know what I mean, even if I don't know exactly how he's utilizing it. But the mere fact that he's successfully using it in a live environment speaks volumes to me and I'm sure I can duplicate his methods should I desire to.

My best advice is, don't try to solve all the problems in the world.  Try to solve the problems that genuinely present themselves to you.  Trying to quantify "how well does an iPad work in a live environment", for instance, is a fool's errand.  It depends on what you're trying to do with that iPad, and what alternatives you're comparing it with.  There are a lot of other considerations if you decide to move to iOS, e.g. how well does the work you do there translate back to your main PC environment, and vice versa, if you continue to use one.  But it's not worth tackling any of the specifics until you decide exactly what you intend to do with the device(s).

QuoteI can look at the screen and see what I'm drawing on it immediately. I want a tablet/pad for artwork almost as much as I do for my music. So having a pad that I can take anywhere and with which I can produce my artwork is very liberating. If I do it the traditional way, I must carry a large pad of paper, and either a big box of colored drawing pencils or pens, or pastels, or even acrylics and brushes if I want to mess with wet media.

My advice on this is that you spend some time on forums frequented by graphic artists.  A tablet is a great solution in theory, but only like-minded artists who've experimented with various tablets can tell you which hardware and software is most effective, if any.  I would imagine there are some great painting and illustration apps for iOS+stylus, but I have no experience with any of them.  And while I like the stylus and painting application that comes with Windows 8, I can't say whether it would satisfy a serious artist's expectations.

cooltouch

Hey, mbenigni,

I composed a detailed reply to your above post, only to have it vanish into the ether because I was using my daughter's laptop, whose mouse works in a sticky fashion that I hate. So I get to start all over. Just as well. A lot has occurred between then and now.

Yesterday, the primary, 2TB drive on my DAW failed catastrophically. Fortunately almost all of my musical files have survived because of a habit I got into many years ago of not storing data files on the same drive or partition as the OS. The failed drive had two partitions, however, and I had a few music files of little consequence stored on the extended partition. Many of my music programs insist on storing plugins in my route directory, typically in /program files/vst plug-ins or some such path. Well, all of those are gone now, and will have to be reinstalled. Far as that goes, ALL of my music software will have to be reinstalled, even though the main directories weren't on the C drive, but all their dlls were in the registry and elsewhere. So, I have a few fun-filled days ahead of me, spent reinstalling all of my software.

And of course the new hard drive is gonna be coming out of my music budget, whether it's a tablet or whatever.  So, onto the topic at hand.

I'll address your second comment first mostly because it is the easiest. I don't need to visit any artist forums. My daughter is a very talented artist who specializes in computer graphics and animation. Her degree is specific to game theory and design, but major components of her specialty were animation and general computer art. According to her, the hot setup is the WaCom Cintiq -- a video touch tablet that is available in a variety of sizes and formats. New ones that graphic artists prefer can range in price from just over $1000 to well beyond $2000. Even used ones tend to hold their value very well. The Cintiq 12wx, for example, sells on eBay between $600-750. As such, they seem to hold their value much better than other pieces of computer hardware. She tells me she'd like to get a Cintiq, but that it isn't a priority for her. She has a regular WaCom tablet that she feels very at home with. Me, I've never been able to get used to drawing while looking up or over at a computer screen. I tend to function better when I can watch my hand.  I know, practice, practice . . .

One interesting thing I've discovered about the Cintiq tablest is that you can run either Mac or PC graphics software on one, which is kinda cool. But even though this is nice for a graphics artist, the Cintiq is pretty much a one trick pony, whereas the iPad is an outstanding polymath.

Which brings me to your first comment. You know, this is one of those "I don't know what it is I don't know . . ." things. I can guess about what I think I might need an iPad for in a musical setting, but I'm not gonna know for sure until I know the setting and I know an iPad's capabilities. I rely a lot on Elantric's feedback here. He says the iPad works much better for him in a live music environment than his Mac Book, but it does sound as if he's basing this choice heavily on security reasons, namely it's more difficult and more painful to have to replace the Mac Book than an iPad.  I can also -- maybe -- see how the operational aspects of using an iPad would be easier since I could use its touch screen, as opposed to a mouse and keyboard with the Mac Book.

But I suspect that my live needs will be considerably different from Elantric's live needs. I am working on a solo act. It's just gonna be me, my guitars, mics and effects, and my computer, all routed through a compact PA system I own. I plan on using this little Dell XPS Studio that I have on extended loan from my daughter. Even though it's small, it's almost as powerful as my DAW. The software that I plan to use for the gigs will probably be Band in a Box, almost exclusively. In recent years BiaB has made a lot of progress in terms of improving the sound quality of their preloaded sounds. And it's easy enough to set up a menu system for song selection, such that, in a live environment -- as long as I can read the screen -- I should be ok.

Which means, of course, that I won't really need an iPad for my live work. But there's one way that it can be useful in these venues and that's for recording. I guess I'm a bit ambivalent about recording myself, but I also tell myself that it'll be good for improvements.

One of the things I've never cared for with regard to me DAW is a feeling of being chained to it. I mean, my entire DAW consists of a computer, a 4-channel mixer attached to the computer's sound card, a 12-channel Mackie mixer, two keyboards -- one Yamaha synth and one Casio 88-key piano -- a Roland JV1010 and GR-33, a couple of rack-mount effects, a couple of guitar amps, and  two sets of reference monitors. Not exactly portable.  So the thought of being able to essentially duplicate this entire setup with a sole iPad is very appealing. I can "take it on the road," so to speak, even if "the road" is just down the street to a local pocket part.  And I guess it is that aspect of a pad that I find most appealing.
Best,
Michael

cooltouch

Just a brief update on the above. Turns out it was a false alarm on my hard drive crash. I replaced the SATA data cable and the drive booted. *whew* I think I'm gonna go take a look at personal cloud storage devices.
Best,
Michael

Elantric

#23
QuoteI think I'm gonna go take a look at personal cloud storage.

Must have money to burn?
http://www.tourocloudbackup.com/
I would simply get a spare (or two) External Hard drives and make my own backups of the files / media i cant replace 

http://bensbargains.net/search/hard%2520drive/?sr=1

cooltouch

Actually, near as I can tell, that's all a personal cloud device is, except it's in a housing that takes an ethernet cable instead of a USB cable. Well, megabit ethernet, these days. Some have an additional USB port so one can daisy-chain another drive to the cloud, sorta like SCSI. I have a 1TB drive that I've owned for a few years now, made by Buffalo, that's both an external drive, via USB, or a networked drive, via ethernet cable, but it's "only" T100.  I bought it back before the whole "cloud" term became fashionable. So I guess my Buffalo has something of a split personality, since it also has a USB 'in'.

Oh! Good idea! I can pull the 1TB drive out of that Buffalo enclosure, install it into one of my desktops, and drop a 3TB drive into the Buffalo.

Upon thinking about the whole cloud storage business some more, I realize that I wouldn't be able to use it to its full design capabilities without having to overhaul most of my network. Seems like most Cloud storage device users these days are outfitting their networks with megabit switches. My wireless is still 802.11g/n and the wireless router is built-in to my ISP's modem. Besides, none of my wireless devices are megabit capable anyway.  But megabit switches are cheap these days. You can pick up a 5-port for under $40 from MicroCenter, and you can get an Intel megabit PCI-Express card for about $35 from New Egg.

Nah, I don't need to spend the money right now. I can just schedule backups to run during the middle of the night instead. I think I will pick up a 3TB drive, though. I feel like I dodged a bullet with that last false alarm.
Best,
Michael