New 13 pin version of the GR300

Started by chrish, September 27, 2017, 03:51:34 PM

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chrish

I recently sent a email to Spicetone to inquire whether or not they were working on any new hex products and if they were not. would they consider taking a look at clone of the GR300 as a possible future product.

The response was that they were not working on any new hex products and yes they would take a look at the GR300.

But is there a market for an updated version of the GR300 with such features as digital control, increased modulation capabilities, extended waveform selection, and possibly control voltage outs.

And of course it would have to accurately reproduce the GR 300 trumpet sound.

susbemol

#1
The biggest problem for anyone considering producing such unit is the size of the market and the possible ROI. Not only would the number of people interested be not so great but the cost of such unit is likely to be prohibitive for a number of them as well - that's even before you consider R&D and production costs.

Running a business with these types of products is actually considerably more complex than it appears to anyone looking from outside. 

chlorinemist

Quote from: susbemol on September 28, 2017, 02:41:57 AM
The biggest problem for anyone considering producing such unit is the size of the market and the possible ROI. Not only would the number of people interested be not so great but the cost of such unit is likely to be prohibitive for a number of the as well - that's even before you consider R&D and production costs.

Running a business with these types of products is actually considerably more complex than it appears to anyone looking from outside.

Normally I'd agree, but Spicetone is a special company. Considering they already did the impossible with the 6Appeal, I wouldn't put this past them. But yeah I don't think it's likely either. I'd honestly prefer Spicetone to focus on analog hexaphonic effects processors, because thats an area that's truly unexplored. They could build an hexaphonic version of absolutely any of the other possible analog effects, and no matter which they chose the product would be the first of it's kind. I like seeing companies do things that have never been done before more than I like them focusing on recreating lost relics

chrish

#3
Quote from: chlorinemist on September 28, 2017, 04:33:18 AM
I like seeing companies do things that have never been done before more than I like them focusing on recreating lost relics
but isn't that exactly what spicetone did with the 6appeal?

They basically created a modern-day version of the 24 pin hex analog Roland GR100.

For example, the gr100 has six -12 dB slope filters, one for each string, but each string cannot be adjusted separately for effect, thereby not taking full advantage of what hex processing has to offer.

Where as the 6appeal has stereo filters applied to the output of all six strings that can be adjusted separately. So with the modern-day panning features of the six appeal, that can be further modulated, you could have those two filters applied to any number of strings.

The modern-day version of anolog hex distortion completely updates the GR100 although I would have like to seen six filters on the six appeal with adjustable slopes.

The crazy thing is I had to go back into 1980 technology in order to find the tone  and and the tracking that I was looking for in a guitar synthesizer. The GR300 does more than just that Pat Metheny horn sound, although that's pretty cool, and of course further filtering can be applied.

But I'm not crazy about the idea that those machines contain very old circuitry with many unavailable parts (unless a person is willing to go on a salvage mission).

Marketing any product is a challenge especially for a niche product like analog hex.

I do like the idea of analog hex effects. Can't we have it all? :)


Brak(E)man

I for one don't really care wether its analog or digital.
The best guitar synth sounds ad feel I've used has been the vg8 and SY300
that said if I can have it all .....
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Rhcole

6appeal would need intervals, synth filters, and envelopes to be more like the GR-300. Especially the intervals would not be trivial.

chrish

#6
Quote from: Rhcole on September 28, 2017, 01:19:03 PM
6appeal would need intervals, synth filters, and envelopes to be more like the GR-300. Especially the intervals would not be trivial.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'intervals" that's a new term for me in relation to synth innards.

the 6appeal has two -12dB per octave  low pass filters applied to the stereo outs and an internal  ADSR envelope that has to be triggered from a midi gate. It also has at least one low frequency oscillator.

It also has a very extensive modulation.

I think of both the gr100 and the  6appeal as a guitar distortion  synthesizers. The string is the oscillator with his own amp envelope characteristics as well as pitch information.

What the 6appeal doesn't have are triggered pitch oscillators with selectable waveforms other than Overdrive,fuzz  and super distortion.So yeah it's most like the GR100 but updated.

The GR300 is a completely different animal from the GR100 or spicetone 6appeal.


It's described in the Quote below from:

http://www.joness.com/gr300/GR-300.htm

"6-voice polyphony
2 oscillators per voice
VCOs (voltage controlled oscillator) are directly harmonically locked to each string, but can be tuned separately
VCF (voltage controlled filter, low pass) -24 dB per octave, with envelope modulation (attack and sensitivity)
Low Frequency Oscillator, for Vibrato Effects
Built-in foot switch controls the VCO mode (single/dual), VCO harmonize pitch (detuning of the VCO's), and VCF mode (on, bypass, or inverted)"

And of course a rudimentary hex Distortion from the on board guitar controller circuitry, such as the g505, can be mixed in with the gr 300 synth tones.

Rhcole

By intervals, I just mean pitch shifts. Those are critical. And it needs onboard ADSRs, dual tone generators, synth filters, quite a bit extra.

It is fine for what it is, but it would require a big investment to become a GR-300.

chrish

#8
Quote from: Rhcole on September 28, 2017, 05:14:13 PM
By intervals, I just mean pitch shifts. Those are critical. And it needs onboard ADSRs, dual tone generators, synth filters, quite a bit extra.

It is fine for what it is, but it would require a big investment to become a GR-300.
most all the circuit design work has already been done by Roland. Spice tone has already done a lot of design work in digital control of analog circuits (so have a lot of other companies).

Patent law varies from country to country. For example in the UK I just read that a full patent can be maintained for only 20 years.

I don't know what it is in the US, but when Behringer cloned the Moog Model D, I read a discussion where the opinion was that a circuit design could be maintained for 40 years.. If that is the case, then Roland's patent on the GR 300 is due to expire in 2020.

Or maybe the design could be licensed from Roland.

The big question is would it sell? Hence the pole.

Beringer has 20,000 pre-orders for its cloned Model D, but that's a different Market then what is presumably a low percentage of guitar players who incorporate full blown  analog synthesizers in their creative process.


maan108

I suppose that Behringer D success is based on :
- the  price difference from original to  clone
- MiniMoog sounds are still "trendy" in the era of vintage revamping.

It could be the same for a GR-300 clone ?

And how much will be the price difference  beetween the GR-300 clone and another new Roland/Boss product that can "sound like" (GR-55, SY-300) ?

IMO one attractive price should be max 200.

Elantric

QuoteIMO one attractive price should be max $200.

thats the price for one string - multiply by 6  ( $1200) gets closer to reality 

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: Elantric on September 29, 2017, 07:15:43 AM
thats the price for one string - multiply by 6  ( $1200) gets closer to reality

Still - imagine 6 Model D's triggered by FTP!
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

admin

#12
Quote from: GuitarBuilder on September 29, 2017, 08:44:03 AM
Still - imagine 6 Model D's triggered by FTP!

Might be happier with a break out box
QuoteSorry Elantric, may you explain me what kind of appareil is a breakout box?

RMC Fanout / Break out boxes for creative uses.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9733.msg69854#msg69854
http://www.separate-strings.co.uk

Or Boss a GP-10  with 6 channels of USB audio ( one per string) to trigger the following:



This is approach to trigger special soft synths with direct audio input alone - separate audio channel per string ( no MIDI )for use with


u-he Zebra,
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13010.0

Pure Data,
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8207.msg58296#msg58296

Reaktor  / GSynth2:  Software Based Guitar Synthesizers
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7772.msg54665#msg54665

Read more in this area

Guitar to MIDI - USB to Softsynth
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=51.0

chrish

Bump. If you haven't voted in this poll, I'd be interested to see how you would vote.

jim-analog

 Greetings,

Well, relatively new member catching up on older posts and I missed the cut off date.

  Yes, I would purchase an updated analog hexaphonic processor for sure. I'd see it a a mix between the GR300, the GR33B and the new "6appeal" being discussed. Even combining the feature set of the 300 gtr and bass versions would be great. The other features I'd consider must have would be CV outputs that held to 1V/Oct and a +5V going gate with some external inputs/outputs (external LFO in, various patch'able points in/out). Think Moogerfoogers as an example.  A 6 channel insert/break out would be icing on the cake.

  I see it not so much as a live performance gtr effect, but the center piece of a studio gtr synth assembly (though the first could be possible, I'd hope not too many features would be cut off to make it size practical).

  Price wise, I'd be comfortable spending US $1200ish; I don't know if that would be possible to produce though..........not sure there is wide enough interest for any company to invest the R&D time.
  If any of you want to collaborate on some "home brew" versions of these type of things, let me know. I'm planning on investigating grafting features between the GR300 and the 33B in the next few months.

Regards, Jim


chrish

#15
Quote from: jim-analog on February 07, 2019, 03:17:01 PM
Greetings,

Well, relatively new member catching up on older posts and I missed the cut off date.

  Yes, I would purchase an updated analog hexaphonic processor for sure. I'd see it a a mix between the GR300, the GR33B and the new "6appeal" being discussed. Even combining the feature set of the 300 gtr and bass versions would be great. The other features I'd consider must have would be CV outputs that held to 1V/Oct and a +5V going gate with some external inputs/outputs (external LFO in, various patch'able points in/out). Think Moogerfoogers as an example.  A 6 channel insert/break out would be icing on the cake.

  I see it not so much as a live performance gtr effect, but the center piece of a studio gtr synth assembly (though the first could be possible, I'd hope not too many features would be cut off to make it size practical).

  Price wise, I'd be comfortable spending US $1200ish; I don't know if that would be possible to produce though..........not sure there is wide enough interest for any company to invest the R&D time.
  If any of you want to collaborate on some "home brew" versions of these type of things, let me know. I'm planning on investigating grafting features between the GR300 and the 33B in the next few months.

Regards, Jim
welcome to the machine  :)

have you read mark smart's  website?

He's done some work hacking into the gr300.


http://www.marksmart.net/gearhack/gr300/gr300main.html

jim-analog


Greetings,

Chrish, kind thanks for the welcome! Seems I've found some like minded colleagues here.

Yes, I've read all of Mark Smarts infos,  probably 80% of Dr Joness and just about anything else I could get a search result for. Mark was really ahead of his time going for it in regards to a fully polyphonic version! I think that in between when he was doing that work and today, there have been pretty large advances in both analog processing and digital control, that may make some of his ideas (and others) more viable (certainly for the experimenter, perhaps for a small commercial concern).

All of this is completely off the top of my head..... So please treat errors as learning points and perhaps a bit too much enthusiasm vs too little reality! I've done a little bit of looking into some actual circuits and ideas on overall architecture, but am not close to reality on anything at this point! So, let's consider it a "thought experiment".

Where do we start and what do we already have to base our dream machine on?

What Roland really got right was the filtering and subsequent analog signal processing to allow for eventual voltage control for tracking pitch and gate signal for starting envelopes, etc.. I believe using that as a template, an improved, less complex circuit could be built today that would allow for the "standard" 1V/Oct and a "smart" gate pulse.  Once we had that front end, the synth possibilities would be essentially limitless (with size and cost being the only real issues) and the following signal path as true to 100% analog as you wanted (or didn't) it to be.

  The lack of CV standardization was IMO the biggest flaw of the 300. The I/O to support it could have stayed on the inside on a connector "for future expansion" as the device was already pretty cutting edge at that time in the marketplace. I'd have to look up the various product dates to see if they had already released the 100, 100M or 700 series modular synths and therefore would have know the importance of the standard. Or maybe the gtr product engineers didn't talk to the keyboard product engineers?

I heard a great comment in a recent documentary about the resurgence of the analog modular synth ("I Dream of Wires"). One of the new manufactures mentioned that he started his business by making a chart of all the things that Bob Moog did NOT have back in the 1960s (electronic parts that were smaller, better and cheaper; mechanical CAD programs; circuit simulation software; fast processing, cheap memory, etc.).This showed him how much of an advantage there was now (hindsight also being good to have) to building an analog modular from scratch (while of course standing on the shoulders of the previous generation).

  It would take a small team of various expertise (analog electronics, power supply distribution, synthesis techniques, digital control circuitry, memory and AD:DA, mixed mode signal integration, various levels of programming, PCB layout, mechanical/packing, etc.). It wouldn't result in a US$200 device, but perhaps could be somewhere under US$2000 (off the top of my head and depending on many dozens of things not yet considered).

  I have some ideas in sketches of a "back plane" that supported insert-able cards and also all the internal and external connections to the front panel controls, rear panel I/O, etc.. This back plain would contain all the routing and back and forth data/signal/control lines, while the cards could be either "per string" multi function or dedicated function. This could allow future upgrade or options as new voicing functions were developed, a short loaded 4 channel unit for bass, etc., whatever else may be though up. Think about a small EuroRack analog synth or perhaps an "API 500 module" standard recording gear rack. Then add a well thought out foot controller. All the knobs, switches, inputs, outputs and power supply would be at the rack. I never liked the idea of having to kneel down to make a fine adjustment to any parameter while having a guitar hanging off my neck!

In a current integrated floor unit if we look at the "6appeal" for example, (I don't have one, just going from the web page) it's pretty much a hex processing/routing unit with 6 digitally controlled analog dirt boxes, some filtering and a bunch of modulation capabilities (I'm not minimizing how clever it is or how great it may be, just simplifying for discussion). So, I think it may be really close to being a lot more. Well,  that being dependent on the internal architecture, layout, etc. and many things I have no idea on how they were implemented.

Well some stuff to think about. At some point I'm going to take apart another 300, a 33B, a 700 and a bunch of modules and see what I come up with. I got on the list for a "6appeal" (if anyone has a used unit for sale, please let me know) and I'll see what happens with that (don't want to break it the first week). I know there are hundreds of really sharp hardware, code, s/w and PCB guys and gals out there; just a matter of finding each other and having some common goals...........Best to everyone!

Regards, Jim


Quote from: chrish on February 07, 2019, 03:56:00 PM
welcome to the machine  :)

have you read mark smart's  website?

He's done some work hacking into the gr300.

http://www.marksmart.net/gearhack/gr300/gr300main.html

aliensporebomb

A new hardware GR-300 in the same box form factor with a 13-pin connector: I can see why it might appeal to some but I fear the components that made it go at the time aren't easily available anymore.   Meaning you'd have to create a
new hardware platform from scratch with modern components (and those go in and out of production as things get
replaced by new things).  I wonder if it would be something practical to do.

That's why more modern devices that do spot-on emulation might be more realistic.   

Not to be snarky but the 13-pin version of the GR-300 exists in at least three devices I'm aware of:
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10

As far as tracking speed the thing even emulated just wails:
https://soundcloud.com/aliensporebomb/bleargh6-vg99-gr300

But maybe that's not what you're attempting to recreate here.   The timbral possibilities of the GR-300 was limited in some way but harkens to a time when the world was full of promise in the ears of this listener.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

chrish

#18
Quote from: aliensporebomb on February 09, 2019, 08:21:23 PM
A new hardware GR-300 in the same box form factor with a 13-pin connector: I can see why it might appeal to some but I fear the components that made it go at the time aren't easily available anymore.   Meaning you'd have to create a
new hardware platform from scratch with modern components (and those go in and out of production as things get
replaced by new things).  I wonder if it would be something practical to do.

That's why more modern devices that do spot-on emulation might be more realistic.   

Not to be snarky but the 13-pin version of the GR-300 exists in at least three devices I'm aware of:
VG-99, GR-55, GP-10

As far as tracking speed the thing even emulated just wails:
https://soundcloud.com/aliensporebomb/bleargh6-vg99-gr300

But maybe that's not what you're attempting to recreate here.   The timbral possibilities of the GR-300 was limited in some way but harkens to a time when the world was full of promise in the ears of this listener.
quote

"Upcoming AR3109. An exact sounding replacement for the since long obsolete Roland IR3109. Used in GR-300"


https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=23824.msg173028#msg173028

There seems to be a  resurgent interest in analog synthesizers.

However for us guitar players it's the same old problem of using guitar pitch to midi tracking errors to control analog synthesizers.

The gr300 got the tracking right and it would be nice to be able to apply that tracking  control to say a Moog Voyager or eurorack modular synthesizers with their seemingly unlimited modulation capabilities.

Or just rebuild the gr300 with additional wave shaping capabilities, modulation and control voltage in and puts.

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: chrish on February 09, 2019, 09:35:44 PM

There seems to be a  resurgent interest in analog synthesizers.

However for us guitar players it's the same old problem of using guitar pitch to midi tracking errors to control analog synthesizers.

The gr300 got the tracking right and it would be nice to be able to apply that tracking  control to say a Moog Voyager or eurorack modular synthesizers with their seemingly unlimited modulation capabilities.

Or just rebuild the gr300 with additional wave shaping capabilities, modulation and control voltage in and puts.

Check out this new company:

https://sonicsmith.com

I think they're on the right track; the new chip (ACO160) will be out this year and has even better perfomance.  A set of 6 Eurorack Convertor+ modules is on my wish list!
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

chrish

Quote from: GuitarBuilder on February 10, 2019, 05:16:51 AM
Check out this new company:

https://sonicsmith.com

I think they're on the right track; the new chip (ACO160) will be out this year and has even better perfomance.  A set of 6 Eurorack Convertor+ modules is on my wish list!
thanks for the link,had not heard of this. hope the redesign works.

"Hello All,

This is Brian Kaczynski of Sonicsmith. It's high time for an update from us.

We introduced a clearance sale of 40% off our existing inventory of ConVertors and Squaver P1s and we are about to release improved versions of both, the ConVertor+ and Squaver P1+, which solve virtually all of the problems that had been reported with the original units. In particular, these units have much better noise and tracking performance than the original designs we released last year.

Expect to see more demo videos and reviews of the new units in the coming weeks. Thank you for keeping this topic going and thank you for your continued interest in our innovative products."

-Brian

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.talkbass.com/threads/sonicsmith-pitch-tacking-analog-synths-converter-and-squaver-p1.1289992/page-2%3famp=1520182641

jim-analog




Greetings,

GuitarBuilder, that is EXACTLY what I was envisioning as the front end of my proposed "hexaphonic analog modular gtr synth". I'm writing sonicsmith in regards to pursue the potential use of their ACO chip technology for that purpose. I was hoping to find a white paper or the patent application info to further understand the interfacing requirements and possibilities. I am also on the waiting list for their "Converter+" product at an American distributor and am eager to see what the capabilities of that unit are and how far they can be taken.

I'll write up some more about my proposed system architecture later this week, but as I noted in my previous mail, if we look at what synths, electronic components and expertise now exists that did not when the R300 was released, we may actually be far closer to a true analog hex modular than thought.

So, I'm interested in hearing of any other ideas and perhaps together we can come up with a basic plan for a test version of such a unit. Depending on the viability of the ACO chip, that could allow for a relatively quick development of some form of prototype. I have many ideas for moving it far forward (patch memory, etc.) if it can be achieved to that initial point. I look forward to continue this discussion.

Regards, Jim


Quote from: GuitarBuilder on February 10, 2019, 05:16:51 AM
Check out this new company:

https://sonicsmith.com

I think they're on the right track; the new chip (ACO160) will be out this year and has even better perfomance.  A set of 6 Eurorack Convertor+ modules is on my wish list!

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: jim-analog on February 12, 2019, 10:47:55 AM

Greetings,

GuitarBuilder, that is EXACTLY what I was envisioning as the front end of my proposed "hexaphonic analog modular gtr synth". I'm writing sonicsmith in regards to pursue the potential use of their ACO chip technology for that purpose. I was hoping to find a white paper or the patent application info to further understand the interfacing requirements and possibilities. I am also on the waiting list for their "Converter+" product at an American distributor and am eager to see what the capabilities of that unit are and how far they can be taken.

I'll write up some more about my proposed system architecture later this week, but as I noted in my previous mail, if we look at what synths, electronic components and expertise now exists that did not when the R300 was released, we may actually be far closer to a true analog hex modular than thought.

So, I'm interested in hearing of any other ideas and perhaps together we can come up with a basic plan for a test version of such a unit. Depending on the viability of the ACO chip, that could allow for a relatively quick development of some form of prototype. I have many ideas for moving it far forward (patch memory, etc.) if it can be achieved to that initial point. I look forward to continue this discussion.

Regards, Jim

Jim - Bear in mind that all Sonicsmith boxes available today are based on the ACO100.  It's not bad, but the ACO160 is the one we want!
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

jim-analog


Greetings,

GuitarBuilder, is that what is implied by the "+" version? Looking thru their web page, it seemed they had 3 basic products; the"Converter" and the "-erizer" (and an LFO). Then those first two were discontinued, remaining stock put on sale and "+" versions of both released. The "Converter +" is still out of stock at the moment it seems. The larger unit, the "-erizer+" is available,  would be stretching my budget (at least until I get a handle on how well the ACO actually does it's thing). If it's great, it would be worth the $ to have the extra features, but if it's not, I don't want to be both the first and last guy on the block with one. So, does the "+" version contain the ACO 160 (or are will still waiting on yet another interim product till we get there)?   Have you tried any of their ACO based products yet?

  I didn't want to purchase a semi-obsolete product that had some known flaws (the "pre +" versions) even if it was a bit less expensive. However, I also didn't want to go "top of the line" till I had a much better understanding of the ACO,  how well it works and how it could possibly be put into hexaphonic use for a major, future project.

At just about the same time, I came across the 6appeal mentioned on this board. (Bad place here, to try and be fiscally responsible) It's funny, I was just thinking about building up a 13 pin "insert/breakout box" and putting 6 custom fuzzes in it to try out in hex (much more finely tuned than the original Roland tone). Obviously, the 6appeal does much more than a single fuzz and is far more developed with filters, modulation, pans, etc.. So, there is just too much good stuff to check out at the same time competing for limited funds. At least good tech work is ongoing in our little corner of interest (that I'd really thought had been left for dead).

BTW, in a different thread, you mentioned a EuroRack hex gtr synth you were building...........I'd asked for any details, but don't know if you saw my reply. Shoot me a note if you can; one way or another within a year or so, I'm going to build some kind of full analog, hex guitar synth. I have plenty of ideas to take it from quite basic to very advanced and am  curious what the rest of the crowd here would think about all the points in between.


Real quick, figure having 6 MiniMoogs (or whatever your favorite monosynth is) with each and every parameter being controlled from it's own dedicated single digital pot/switch/whatever (so every patch could be stored and recalled). My general scheme was a card cage, where each card would be like a given module on a fully modular synth; you could swap out a 6 channel Osc card from various typologies, 6 channel VCFs, from Moog to OB to Roland to ARP; on and on. Each card would support 6 voices, so it would maintain the hex poliphany across every feature. And allow for the central processor to maintain patch memory/recall.

Then we can get into a pile of other decisions: if it should be fully modular, semi, or fixed; should each of the hex elements be able to be brought out at different points, should each string be processed by a smaller "synth assembly" rather than all 6 going thru each stage? Should individual strings be processed spatially, separated for use in PANs,  DDLs, LFOs etc.?

There are so many possible things that could finally turn the gtr into the most wide ranged instrument available. The really great part is that 90% of the ground work was already done in the 1980s. The final part of the puzzle *may* be the ACO 160 chip.................we need to find out as soon as we can. Otherwise, we're back to picking among lesser evils, old tech, or perhaps somewhat lesser quality than I'd want to use to do the initial conversion. The success of the entire system will be contingent upon the first PTV being done as perfectly and repeatably as possible.

Regards, Jim

GuitarBuilder

Jim - AFAIK the "+" versions of Sonicsmith use the ACO100 chip.  The ACO160 chip is coming later this year.  Mind you, these boxes are not bad if you can get them at a good discount, just to experiment with.

The 6APPEAL is quite good at what it does; it is essentially a poly distortion unit with VCFs and VCAs.  You can buy them at Perfect Circuit:

https://www.perfectcircuit.com/spicetone-6appeal-hexaphonic-guitar-effect-pedal.html

I'm building a Eurorack analog hex guitar processor; the more I look at it, the less I want it to be a synth - unless the ACO160 really works.  I already have great synths (Gr-55, GR-99, GP-10, SY-300) and I don't think I could build anything better.  I've been at this since 1970 and keep finding the weak link to be the pitch detection (and having to use MIDI).  It just isn't all that good.  If that fails, it doesn't matter how many VCOs, VCFs, VCAs, etc. you put in the path.  I don't want to have to restrict my playing style to sound acceptable.  Using control voltages instead of MIDI opens up more possibilities (my first guitar synth was 100% CV-controlled), but the pitch detection is still critical.  We'll have to see what Sonicsmith comes up with.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973