FTP - Fishman Tripleplay and Ableton Live question

Started by frozenintime, June 03, 2013, 02:56:48 PM

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frozenintime

hi there

i've seen some folks saying the fishman triple play works great with ableton and others saying the opposite, but no specifics of what does or doesn't work.

can anyone fill me in quickly?

if i had to guess, i'd assume that the pickup passes MIDI signal to ableton without any problems, but that combining ableton with the triple play software (to create splits, etc) is where the problems lie.

but i have no idea, everything i've read is quite vague.

for what it's worth, i'm still using ableton 8 (mac) for the moment - i gather 9 provided headaches for some.

any info would be appreciated!

Elantric

I believe FTP is working under Ableton Live for most folks
There are many Ableton Alt tuning presets for Tripleplay here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8493.0

More Ableton with FTP advice here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8505.0

frozenintime

oh that's great to hear. i'm not sure what i read that gave me the impression there were problems with tripleplay and ableton communicating.

and if i'm on live 8, it sounds like i shouldn't even have 32/64 bit issues, eh?

while i'm asking, i wonder if you can let me know whether ableton can easily control changing presets/patches/whatever-they-are-called in the tripleplay software?

we use a single ableton set with different scenes for different songs and i'm hoping different guitar splits for each song can be controlled via ableton as easily as ableton switches between different instances of its own internal samplers, drum machines, etc.

hope that's not too confusing, and thank you for the reply!

Elantric

I have not had any time to personally test FTP under Ableton Live.

But I understand many others here have made it work, and may offer better advice / tips.

Do a google search on "Fishman Tripleplay with Ableton Live"

http://www.fishman.com/software/tripleplay/download/tripleplay_releasenotes.pdf

[Bug #659] [OSX 10.6.8 only] In Ableton Live TriplePlay VST appears as a "plugin" and"pluginFX" instead of "TriplePlay" and "TriplePlayFX".


Ableton Live 8 and FTP - How to manage Patches and splits?
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=33244.msg246311#msg246311


frozenintime

believe it or not, i did that very google search but somehow you found better stuff than i did!

that futureguitar forum you linked is saying that "it looks like Ableton Live 8 doesn't support FTP fully" though. :/

thanks!

Elantric

#5
Quotethat futureguitar forum you linked is saying that "it looks like Ableton Live 8 doesn't support FTP fully" though. :/

Suggest Read the whole thread  - IT may be pilot error -
Ableton Live 8 and FTP - How to manage Patches and splits?
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=33244.msg246311#msg246311


FWIW - both VGuitarforums and Futureguitarnow have similar members and both are owned and run by me.

trivia for the reason this situation exists
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7912.msg50135#msg50135

todd_todd

Hey all! I'm new to the FTP and new to the forum, but I couldn't find anything addressing this question so hopefully this post isn't redundant!

When I'm composing music in my DAW (Ableton Live), I can use my Fishman Triple Play (hardware) as a generic MIDI input to send to my DAW. This works, but the MIDI is never being processed by FTP software, meaning I don't have control over transposing, pitch bend mode, etc, and none of the "smart" things that FTP software does to generate MIDI from the signal from the FTP hardware are in play, which results in worse tracking. I assume the FTP software works something like this (at a high level):

input (from FTP hardware)   ->   MIDI   ->      output (audio)

So it receives data from the FTP hardware, does some smart algorithmic stuff to convert it to MIDI (i.e. analyze input, apply pitch bend, etc), and send the transformed MIDI to some selected VST to then output an audio signal.

What I want to be able to do is remove the last step in FTP where the transformed MIDI is sent to a VST to produce an audio signal, but rather just have the software output the transformed MIDI that could be routed to my DAW. That would allow me to use my DAW in a very natural way (selecting different tracks with different instruments and playing them within my DAW, would be able to use any synth, even my DAW-specific synths that are not available to use in FTP software, etc), but rather than using FTP hardware as a generic MIDI instrument, having the signal from FTP hardware first transformed by some software that is smarter for better tracking and gives more control, as FTP software does.

Currently, is something like this possible? If not, what is the recommended way to use FTP software with a DAW? Also, has a similar feature been requested, and is this on Fishman's roadmap? One possible implementation could be to create a Fishman Triple Play MIDI effect to be used within a DAW that would transform generic MIDI input into post-FTP software processed MIDI. However, I don't know if FTP software needs raw data from FTP hardware, which could possibly provide more information than the generic MIDI that FTP hardware sends to a DAW.

Kind of a doozy for a first post! Thanks in advance for the responses!!

admin




Triple Play and Ableton Live 9 (64-bit edition)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8505.msg71258#msg71258

todd_todd

Quote from: admin on July 13, 2018, 11:07:49 AM



Triple Play and Ableton Live 9 (64-bit edition)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8505.msg71258#msg71258

Based on this video, it seems like it is not currently supported to re-route the FTP software transformed MIDI to Ableton (or generically, any DAW). Perhaps I should make a post in the feature request thread?

admin

Quote from: todd_todd on July 13, 2018, 02:12:42 PM
Based on this video, it seems like it is not currently supported to re-route the FTP software transformed MIDI to Ableton (or generically, any DAW). Perhaps I should make a post in the feature request thread?

OR rtm

https://www.fishman.com/support/tripleplay-support-materials/

TRIPLEPLAY TUTORIALS
MODULE #7: USING TRIPLEPLAY WITH DAW SOFTWARE
https://www.fishman.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/tripleplay_tut7.pdf


--
QuoteHi!

These are ableton live sets designed for the fishman triple play...

Each set is a different tuning for your midi guitar...

They are set up for triple play in mono mode you can activate pitch bend or not...

Here is a link to the document where I found the info on the tunings...  http://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/alternatetunings/alltunings.pdf

The pdf contains chord forms and scale charts and explains use and origins of each tuning.

These are not all of the tunings in the document but do constitute most of the tunings...

have fun

Dan O'Neil

volts3300 (AT) yahoo.com

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=39
OK Elantric I'm still working on getting the tunings set up. I have about two thirds of a pdf document I found on the interwebs set up in live 8.2. I will finish this project tonight and try to upload the .als files and the link to the reference I used to create them. What it will produce when you open them in ableton is a grouped set of tracks with the 6 channels of triple play mapped to the six inputs with the correct midi transpose values entered for the selected tuning. Example open c. A user will have to assign a midi instrument to each track in order to use them. I use the suite version of live so mine default to an operator synth piano but I will remove that from the files prior to the upload because if you are using a lesser version of live it might glitch. I'm not sure if it would just load the tracks and ignore the missing synth or spit an error.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8481.msg60762#msg60762

Ok,
Here are the previously mentioned ableton live sets. You can use them a few different ways. Unzip them to a folder. Navigate to them in live's browser and drag into your existing project or just double click on one to open it in a new set. These are designed for triple play in mono mode. You will have to drop an audio generating component in on each track in the group and set it's output to master or a bus to your master in order to hear output. Also, make sure you drop whatever you are using in AFTER the pitch modifier on each string. Another way, you can make a midi track with a synth or sampler and output the midi from all six strings to that track and its audio to master.

I did not include the operator piano patch I was using because I dont know if it comes with every flavor of live and I didn't want to generate a bunch of errors for people. Not sure if it would ignore or just glitch so you'll need to set up your own soft synth.

I got the alternate tuning info here   http://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/alternatetunings/alltunings.pdf

I didn't do every tuning in the document but I did do most. The pdf has lots of chord diagrams and scale charts. It explains a lot about each tuning and sometimes gives examples of use.

Anyway, I hope this helps someone have some fun or do something different musically to break a rut or put a smile.

I like the open tunings for piano playing.

make sure you have the exclusive record turned off in lives settings as all six tracks will need to be record enabled to work. That is the way the sets are saved. Don't know what it will do if your settings are different.


https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8493.0

todd_todd

Okay, I'm still not sure that either of these address what I'm talking about (and it could be possible that what I'm talking about is not yet a supported feature), and the manual also does not.

In both of these videos, it seems that there is no way for the post-processed FTP software MIDI to be routed to a DAW, or to have FTP software output MIDI as opposed to audio. For example in the first video, when they used the FTP hardware as a basic MIDI device (to use an Ableton instrument), the MIDI is not processed by FTP software. Thus, you can't control things like the pitch-bend mode, dynamic sensitivity, etc. This is as described in the In a Hurry? Basic MIDI Controller Mode section of the Triple Play 1.4 User Guide. This generic MIDI controller behavior is non-ideal because FTP software allows you to have more control over the MIDI behavior (e.g. pitch bend mode, etc).

The feature I would be requesting would be to have some way for FTP software to output it's processed MIDI information, rather than having to send it to a synth. This MIDI could then be routed to any DAW (this isn't Ableton specific).

If there's something I'm completely misunderstanding, then my bad. But from what I can tell, it doesn't seem possible to route post-processed FTP software MIDI anywhere other than the synths selected in the FTP application.

todd_todd

I believe I've found a solution to what I was looking for!

I downloaded some freeware called MidiPipe and set up a virtual MIDI input/output. In FTP software (standalone) preferences, I set the Hardware Synth MIDI Output to my virtual MIDI instruments input. Then, I make sure my DAW is accepting MIDI from my virtual instrument, and voila! The FTP software is processing the input from my FTP hardware, and the MIDI signal is being sent to my DAW. By default, my DAW accepted MIDI input from my virtual MIDI instrument, so I did not have to change any setting in my DAW! In FTP software if I can adjust the dynamic offset, MIDI Mode, Pitchbend Mode, etc, and the changes are reflected before the MIDI is sent to my DAW.

A couple follow-up questions would be:

1) is there any sort of interface (API) to programmatically adjust these FTP parameters (pitchbend range, touch sensitivity, etc)? I'd love to automate this so that I could control within my DAW.

2) Are there many people who route MIDI to a DAW as I have described here? If so, why not? It seems like a far superior way to use FTP with a DAW, since you can treat it as a generic MIDI input (so it requires no setup in the DAW), but you get all the benefits of the FTP software.

Thanks for all the help!

Dalai_llama

This is an old thread, but allow me to weigh in.

The method you have used is indeed the best approach for that. It adds a half millisecond of latency at worst, and you have FTP running as standalone. There would be other tools to do the same, but overall that is the way to go.

I use Plogue Bidule, which gives me a level of control over the midi signal that is about as deep as it gets -- you can even 'shuffle' the midi clock with it, and you can create devices/modules if you have programming skills.

Regarding your questions:

1) I'm not aware of any way of doing that. Last January at NAMM I had a long chat with a Fishman employee who said he was in charge of the software, and I begged him to release the code if Fishman dropped Triple Play at some point. With Ableton Live, it is possible to use the input of MidiPipe and similar apps (Bidule, Midi Patchbay, the GUI of some hardware midi routers like Bome, iConnectivity etc), so if any of these can manipulate the midi signal through those (and I would place my bets on Bidule), it should do what you describe. The problem is how to control setup features on TP without their software. I'm hoping to find a way to do that.

2) Ditto.


p8guitar

#13
With the tripleplay wireless, I save a hardware patch containing the "hardware synth plugin" with the tripleplay utility app to the controller to set the parameters (poly/mono, pitchbend mode...)
Then I close the app and just play soft synths in Ableton Live with the tripleplay. (This is quite simple and doesn't require any additional midi apps that were mentioned before, but of course there may be some clever tricks you can do with them...)

baatkarlo

Eat sleep get up play. Eat sleep get up play. Eat sleep get up play.