Pigtronix Infinity Looper : Watch out Roland

Started by aliensporebomb, January 28, 2012, 07:13:54 PM

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Hopkins

If you go through the "RC-300 First Day Notes" and the "Looper Decision Getting Aggravating" posts then you will find a manual link and plenty of info about the various modes of operation!

In fact, I am about to do the same to correct a couple of points where I mentioned the 2 measure default thing...

mbenigni

Just watched that video again recently, and posted the following comment.  I'm wondering what the more experienced Looper-users here think about the hype over what sounds essentially like a Multiply feature to me.  I was hoping it would be more automatic - am I missing something?

QuoteI'm a bit disappointed by the demonstrator saying he has loop 2 "set to" 4x the length of loop 1, and have to agree with the other comments in that there isn't anything terribly original about this, at least not? on the face of it. I had hope for all the hype that you could just record a loop, start the next loop and play til you were finished, and then on the next stomp it would automatically calculate the length multiplier. And for the life of me I can't see what's so complicated about this.

Threeleggedyoyo

Quote from: mbenigni on August 27, 2012, 07:48:50 AM
Just watched that video again recently, and posted the following comment.  I'm wondering what the more experienced Looper-users here think about the hype over what sounds essentially like a Multiply feature to me.  I was hoping it would be more automatic - am I missing something?

The nice thing about it, as I understand, is that you can loop a longer sequence over a shorter one without having to record the shorter one with all the repetitions.

For example right now I have a song where the bass riff is 4 bars, and I like that to come in first. However, the riff played over it is a full 16 - basically it changes cords every time the original riff is completed.

The downside is that if I want the bass to come first, and I still want to record the guitar part, I have to play the original 4 bar riff 4 times through.

Of course, I'm doing this in Single mode, and in multi mode it might not matter...

Anyway that's the nice thing about a the 'multiply' feature.

All this assumes I understand the feature you're referring to... I might be completely misunderstanding the whole discussion...

Hopkins

I think that mbenigni's point is that it seems like a totally obvious thing for a multi-track looper to do. What is more, having to tell it in advance that the loop is 4x or whatever seems restrictive and unnecessary.  I agree entirely with that! 

However, there seem to be two schools of practice in the looping community: the old-school, who have grown up with long delay/single loop/fade away/overdubbing type things which naturally work quite well with improvisation, and the "new-school" (like me) who are thinking about them more as an adaptation of a multi-track recorder and how you can punch-in/punch-out/rearrange sections of music on the fly.  It is easy to see why, depending on your preconceptions, certain features might seem more or less impressive.

mbenigni

#29
Hopkins has it right (as far as interpreting my comment goes.)  I totally get the point the point of wanting a subsequent loop to be longer than the first, I'm just disappointed that Pigtronix didn't take this idea further.  As is pointed out elsewhere in the Youtube comments section, the idea of a multiply button is hardly original - it goes back to the early 90's if I'm not mistaken, with the Echoplex, and it's since been copied in all kinds of gear and software, e.g. NI Guitar Rig.

I've held out for the Infinity for months now thinking they'd built on this concept to the point where we could play a short rhythmic figure, then perhaps an arbitrarily long chord sequence over that, then... whatever.  But "set to 4 times as long as the first loop" is completely underwhelming IMO, and doesn't justify the wait or the inevitable price premium.  I'm still hoping someone will explain to me how I'm wrong. 

Hopkins

I don't know if you have been keeping your eye on the other threads in this section, but the RC-300 is extremely capable.  There have been a few revelations by users recently which work around (or fix) what have otherwise been considered to be glaring omissions, namely seamless looping of tracks with lengths which do not divide into each other (e.g. three tracks of length 2, 3 and 5 measures), a hardware solution for gradual decaying of old tracks with the loop still in overdub mode and also a way to "abuse" the stereo nature of the device to simulate to independently routed mono inputs/outputs.

Elantric

#31
I've stated this before, but in my opinion "new school" live looping is best accomplished with recent Mac and Abelton Live and a KMI SoftStep to control it.

The longer you delay learning that system, while waiting for a suitable hardware looper is time lost.

alternatively on the hardware Looper side, there are folks who swear by the combo of a Looperlative and a Gordius MIDI footcontroller.

http://looperlativeaudio.com/

QuoteThe LP1 is the first hardware looper to offer 8 stereo tracks in a single box. Input to the box is through a pair of unbalanced line-level 1/4" connectors. Each output is also a pair of unbalanced 1/4" connectors. There are three outputs: main, auxiliary 1 and auxiliary 2. MIDI in, out and through are provided. An RJ45 connector is provided for ethernet network connectivity. An external power supply is provided.
Each track acts as an independent stereo looper. Tracks maybe synchronized or completely unrelated in time from each other. The LP1 can synchronize to an external MIDI clock and it can generate a MIDI clock based on the length of track 1. Total recording time is approximately 4.5 minutes of stereo recording.

The sampling rate is 44.1 kHz and the audio from each track can be exported to a computer or imported from a computer through the network interface. The sampling rate was chosen to allow transfer to and from CD without having to convert the sampling rate. Audio is stored as 32-bit integers internally and sampled at 24-bits.

Track manipulation includes but is not limited to: recording, muting, overdubbing, reversing, speed changing, scrambling, and bouncing output to new tracks.

The manual is available online at: http://www.looperlative.com/upgrades/lp1-user-manual-007.pdf

A large image of the front can be seen at: http://www.looperlative.com/prodimages/lp1_front.jpg
A large image of the back can be seen at: http://www.looperlative.com/prodimages/lp1_back.jpg

Hopkins

You are probably right.  However, since I hack about with computers all day, I specifically do not want anything to do with them during my music making sessions :P

Regarding Looperlative, I had read about that before.  Not sure if it is still in production.  Looks good though.

mbenigni

I know Ableton inside and out, and love it to pieces, but as Hopkins says, there are times when you just don't want to be looking at or thinking about a PC.  It sometimes seems like I spent about a decade trying to get PC's to replace my guitar rig, and now I'm fated to spend another decade trying to reverse on my poor judgement.   ::)

Similarly, the Looperlative and RC300 are each excessive in their respective ways.  I just want a reasonably small stompbox to work up backing tracks when I'm not up for sitting at a desk dragging and dropping clips around.  Had I not overestimated the design scope of the Infinity, I'd probably have just picked up an RC30 by now.

Hopkins

Have you have looked at the Boomerang III?  It has its own novel way of working in different modes - by functioning differently depending on which loop you begin to record first.  Quite a neat solution in some respects.

mbenigni

Quote from: Hopkins on August 28, 2012, 08:52:41 AM
Have you have looked at the Boomerang III?  It has its own novel way of working in different modes - by functioning differently depending on which loop you begin to record first.  Quite a neat solution in some respects.

The Boomerang was well in my sights for a long time: nice form factor, cool modes (well, per word of mouth anyway - to be honest the UI doesn't seem all that intuitive to me at first glance), and alledgedly the best sound quality of the current generation of loopers.  The price was a little daunting, but not a deal breaker necessarily.

However, non-volatile storage of loops is a BIG plus in favor of the less glamourous Boss and Digitech pedals.  I want to know that if I have a good moment with a pedal, I can easily save the results and get back to work with them later.

The Boomerang, for all I've read, is an excellent choice for live performance, but I'll spend more time farting around the house, using a looper as a mobile, lazy man's recording studio.

Hopkins

What is it that you dislike about the RC-300 - is it primarily the size?  I must admit, I make full use of all the buttons on the RC-300, so I sort of accept its bulk.  It is also a little on the pricey side.

mbenigni

Size is the first concern, and price is the second.  It's just a lot more kit than I need, to be honest.  If I want to get that sophisticated, I will in fact bring a PC to the proverbial gunfight, and benefit from a full blown GUI.

I haven't completely ruled it out though.  I was a little bit intrigued by the idea of using it as primary footcontroller and hiding everything else (e.g. GR55) away with the amp.  But you know how these things go, I'd probably solve one problem and find half a dozen more.  Really trying to go simple on this one.

Hopkins

Yes, I understand.  I wonder if Roland will ever "do a Line 6" on this...  And by that I refer to the fact that Line 6 seem to develop various different products and then start bringing them all together into one unit.  Perhaps Roland could release an all in one looping/synthing/emulating/drumming/effects thing at some point :P

Elantric

#39
QuoteIt sometimes seems like I spent about a decade trying to get PC's to replace my guitar rig, and now I'm fated to spend another decade trying to reverse on my poor judgement.   ::)

Tell me about it!

For the amount of time and money I spend with gear, I really should consider offering an "internship" to a young eager to learn audio trainee who acts as my audio engineer and follows me around, capturing and recording my ideas while I pursue a career as a human "golden guitar riff generator".

 

 

mbenigni

#40
QuotePerhaps Roland could release an all in one looping/synthing/emulating/drumming/effects thing at some point
If the GR55's looper hadn't been such a complete afterthought, they'd be there already.  Or is this the irony that earned your :P above?  :)

QuoteFor the amount of time and money I spend with gear, I really should consider offering an "internship" to a young eager to learn audio trainee who acts as my audio engineer and follows me around, capturing and recording my ideas while I pursue a career as a human "golden guitar riff generator".
True.  It didn't occur to me until far too late that, where succeeding as a guitarist was unlikely, succeeding as this and engineer and sound designer and guitar tech and PC consultant and... this was something beyond unlikely.  Words like "delusional" and "masochistic" come to mind...

aliensporebomb

#41
I'd buy an RC-300 if I had the cash today.  This year is proving to be very expensive for non-music related areas.  Maybe next year?
I've seen the Looperlative somewhere before, it looks awfully nice. 

I'm running a Mac with Augustus Loop in the studio, but I don't want to cart my pristine mac out of my studio to very dirty gigging places.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Hopkins

Quote from: mbenigni on August 28, 2012, 09:47:51 AMIf the GR55's looper hadn't been such a complete afterthought, they'd be there already.  Or is this the irony that earned your :P above?  :)

Ah, no, I do not use a GR55 so I cannot comment.  It was more to reflect the unlikelihood of such an all-inclusive piece of kit, partly because you will *never* please everyone and partly because you may end up with too few people who actually want such a monster product because of the inherent complexity.

Quote from: mbenigni on August 28, 2012, 09:47:51 AMTrue.  It didn't occur to me until far too late that, where succeeding as a guitarist was unlikely, succeeding as this and engineer and sound designer and guitar tech and PC consultant and... this was something beyond unlikely.  Words like "delusional" and "masochistic" come to mind...

That said, like most things in life, there are more opportunities when you try to combine disciplines - and you don't need to be a master of anything if you come up with a clever and novel combination.  That is partly my motivation, musically at least.  I feel I can actually do something unique with the right combination of equipment and inspiration.  This certainly appears to have been true of the much talked about "Frippertronics" on this board!

Quote from: aliensporebomb on August 28, 2012, 12:06:45 PMI'm running a Mac with Augustus Loop in the studio, but I don't want to cart my pristine mac out of my studio to very dirty gigging places.

Ah, yes, this is a particularly important property of a hardware, rather than a software, solution.

mbenigni

#43
Finally broke down and bought a used RC-30.  Could have - and probably should have - just done this a year ago.

There are a few things that I just assumed would be done right on the Infinity that - so far as I can tell - haven't been.  First of all, given three footswitches - versus the more common 2 on pedals with this footprint - I'd have appropriated them a little differently, or at least made different configurations possible.  For instance undo/redo are more important in my book than they seem to be to all of these mfrs.  (Maybe I make more mistakes than the average player LOL.)  The best Boss will do is a "hold for 2 seconds" option - not bad, not great.

But more than anything I'm disappointed by the predetermined 2x/3x/4/x/6x multiplier "innovation".  I was really hoping the "Infinity" would let me overdub a second track, you know, "Infinitely"... and then cut to fit to the closest multiple of the first track.  As per the name.  Am I really being so crazy?  Until someone can show me a Real Book where a significant percentage of the charts are 6 bars long, I'm unimpressed.

Ah well.  The Boss was less than half  the price, and will run on batteries which is often a big convenience for me.  Hopefully it will get the job done.

(Also, I didn't want to have to hear another demonstrator say the phrase "One stomp shopping", ever again.  ;) )

Hopkins

Ah, cool good luck with that.  Let us know if there any annoying limitations and surprising capabilities!

tekrytor

Yes, please report back on the RC-30. A new thread on the smaller footprint RCs would be nice. Although the 50 and 300 have more features, some of us just do not have the real estate or cash.
SY-300/BeatBuddy/VoiceLive 3/GR-55(v1.50)/33/1/50/700/VGA-7/V-Bass, Yam-G10, GPK-4, DIY X-Bee HighlyLiquidCPU "Cozy-Lil-Footie", FCB-1010, other MIDI stuff, Godin Freeway SA and various other GK equipped controllers, Sonar X1, Audacity, KXstudio, Misc devices

mbenigni

Sure, I'll open a new RC-30 thread when I start using it.  I doubt there will be much to tell that isn't in the Owner's Manual, but I'll at least let you know how I'm using it and whether I'm happy.  I'm pretty sure I'll be ignoring a lot of features, like that weird collection of effects, but we'll see.

tekrytor

Thanks mbenigni! We can all download the manual, but not your user experience and satisfaction levels.
SY-300/BeatBuddy/VoiceLive 3/GR-55(v1.50)/33/1/50/700/VGA-7/V-Bass, Yam-G10, GPK-4, DIY X-Bee HighlyLiquidCPU "Cozy-Lil-Footie", FCB-1010, other MIDI stuff, Godin Freeway SA and various other GK equipped controllers, Sonar X1, Audacity, KXstudio, Misc devices

aliensporebomb

My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

cell7

http://digitech.com/en-US/products/jamman-solo-xt

Now this looks interesting... just add more pedals if you want more loops. Im keen to see if this works well.