Tripleplay Connect with all high E strings - .012 gauge

Started by cellomangler, May 17, 2022, 04:57:30 PM

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cellomangler

So I had high hopes for this.  I just put together an electric guitar with Warmoth parts, superwide neck, no pickups, nut cut for all high E strings... mounted the Tripleplay Connect and got the action just perfect. I'm using a MIDI plugin that will provide a different transpose for each MIDI channel, so in MONO mode I'm taking the 6 individual MIDI channel outputs from each string and transposing them from all high E down to what they are supposed to be as heard by a synth/vst.  I was going for ultra low latency.    Well.. it's real buggy.  First off, I'm having a heck of time getting the Connect to use my saved hardware configuration - it keeps reverting back to poly mode.  But then I'm having a lot of trouble with the lower strings - or, what I'm transposing my high E's down to on those string locations.  It looks like the Connect doesn't like small gauge strings where it expects the larger gauge to be... as if it's using more info about the string than I though it was.  Really strange, because I thought I was going to end up with a super low latency controller - albeit with weird strings, but that doesn't bother me - but instead it's very wonky.  And the guitar and pickup are set up great, mind you.  Guess I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas why this is not working out...

cellomangler

#1
Well for one thing, I need to install the latest software.  8)
And I just did and it's no better.
Seems that Tripleplay just doesn't like using the high E strings for the lower three - D, A & E.  D is glitchy, A is very glitchy and E is super glitchy.

An update... I just rotated the pickup around so that the normally low E side is on the high E side and changed my MIDI channel & transposition settings accordingly.
Yup.... the low E, A  D are now working but the high strings are wonky.  So it does look like the Connect just doesn't want light gauge strings where it expects heavy gauge.
Could there be a setting somewhere that could fix this....?  That is the question.

kimyo

i did this using all 'b' strings with very good results, also using a tripleplay connect.

all strings, all frets gave me ~12.5msec latency. 

definitely try the update.  but also maybe try a 'b' string in the place of the low 'e'.  also please describe the issues in more detail (ie: wrong notes, false notes, etc/)

in terms of reverting to poly mode - this is patch specific, i've never had a problem like that.  as long as i have the right patch selected it always selects the proper mode.

on another post someone was saying that untrimmed strings can cause pitch detection issues on other hardware, might be worth cutting those off.

i love guitars without mag pickups, yours is very stylish.  great personality.

cellomangler

Quote from: kimyo on May 17, 2022, 06:06:55 PMi did this using all 'b' strings with very good results, also using a tripleplay connect.
...maybe try a 'b' string in the place of the low 'e'.  also please describe the issues in more
...on another post someone was saying that untrimmed strings can cause pitch detection issues on other hardware, might be worth cutting those off.
Good ideas.  I had a lot of string wagging about because I didn't know if I was going to have to remove the strings.  I'll take care of that, but also a heavier gauge on those lower strings.  I bet that will do it.
Quote from: Bluesbird on May 17, 2022, 06:59:20 PMThe monitor hand position setting works by knowing the tuning of the guitar, such as whether it is eadgbe, or drop d, or some open tuning. Try turning "monitor hand position" off in the preferences of the TP app to see if you get better results. I find the latency is plenty fast on the bass notes, so I don't see any need for this same string method. For lowest latency choose "pick" and not "fingerstyle" in your patch parameter settings.
Yes, thanks.  I believe I tried those settings but I'll double check.  One of the reasons I was experimenting with all strings the same gauge is that I'm also going to mount a GK-3 and tap all the strings into 6 inputs of my DAW with MIDI Guitar 2 on each channel.  I know that this works excellently as well from other conversations.
Cheers !

cellomangler

#4
Quote from: kimyo on May 17, 2022, 06:06:55 PM...also please describe the issues in more detail (ie: wrong notes, false notes, etc.
It would either make no sound (no MIDI transmit), jump up an octave or an interval, or sort of sputter. 8)

kimyo

i looked at the tripleplay setups i was using and it was about half and half fingerstyle vs not.  on the pitch bend most patches were trigger, the rest auto.  monitor hand position was off. 

i don't think i ever adjusted the open string tuning.  if i did i must have reset it when i switched back to eadgbe (which i did because the sy-1000 wasn't particularly pleased with bbbbbb).

>> It would either make no sound (no MIDI transmit), jump up an octave or an interval, or sort of sputter.
it does seem like you've successfully ruled out the possibility of the pickup being too far from the strings, but those issues could indicate a distance issue. 


cellomangler

#6
Quote from: kimyo on May 18, 2022, 07:40:25 PMI looked at the tripleplay setups i was using and it was about half and half fingerstyle vs not.  on the pitch bend most patches were trigger, the rest auto.  monitor hand position was off. 
i don't think i ever adjusted the open string tuning.  if i did i must have reset it when i switched back to eadgbe (which i did because the sy-1000 wasn't particularly pleased with bbbbbb).
...those issues could indicate a distance issue. 
Well I may have gotten it the best I can.  I had to go with heavier gauge strings - .042, .034, .024, .016 - for the low E-G strings and then .012 for the B & E.  Basically a light electric set but I didn't want an ultra light high E.  Latency is not a problem but glitching is... and I have pretty good technique.  With picking it's usable (albeit with a good bit of post editing) but I'm trying to lay down chords like a piano would play and fingers is best for that.  Thus I get better results with the Finger Pick setting, touch sensitivity around 5 and dynamics sensitivity & offset around 7.  I'm going to play around a bit more with this setup and then put a GK-3 on there and pipe each string to a different channel, each with MIDI Guitar 2..  Curious how that will come out.  A gentleman who goes by LoFiLeif on YouTube gets great results with MIDI Guitar 2 using individual string processing provided by a GP-10.  I'm really trying to avoid lumping on more gizmos, though.  I'm just gonna tap the 13 pin and run 6 mic lines into an interface.  I'd really like the Fishman to win out.

cellomangler

#7
First a question:  I'm getting this strange behavior in MONO mode.  If I play an open string such as the A string and try to play anything above the 6th fret on any other string at the same time or while that open string is ringing out, the 2nd note will not sound.  I can play multiple notes combining open and fretted anywhere below (lower than) the 6th string and the all ring out fine.  MONO mode should only be forcing MONO on each individual string separately - and it does, except with this open string problem.
Strange... there's got to be something obvious I'm missing...

Quote from: Bluesbird on May 19, 2022, 07:27:27 AMI enjoy doing these experiments, but at the end of the day, the Fishman Tripleplay will easily and unquestionably out-perform any of these alternative pitch to midi methods.
Yup... thanks for the feedback... and time is precious.  I've been around for awhile.  My first MIDI guitar system was the Phitec Photon before Gibson bought the patent and gave it a go (I still own it).  It actually was usable it its "hyperspeed" mode, but very cantankerous to set up.  I've had a GI-20 for awhile and while it is much better, it's still a pain.  The more I tweak this new guitar I put together, the more I'm liking it and I believe I can be productive with the Tripleplay.  The extra wide 1 7/8" fretboard (Warmoth Superwide which I have on 2 other axes) makes it easier to get clean chordal MIDI tracking and the Schaller bridge is fully adjustable.  I think you are probably right - better to wait until a truely better system comes around.  The latency is not a problem at all, I'm just after the most accurate and cleanest MIDI for sequencing.  And now for some real crazy... I also own a couple of the RockBand guitars with the switches that actually have decent MIDI output.  I miss strings but the main problem with them is the horizontal spacing between adjacent "buttons" (strings).  So I think if I experiment with anything, I'll be modifying one of them for kicks.  Cheers!

cellomangler

#8
Quote from: Bluesbird on May 19, 2022, 03:53:31 PMNot sure about the mono mode problem with the Tripleplay. Does it have the problem in poly mode?  Do you have a split set above the 6th fret?  You can diagnose the midi output using a program such as MidiOx.  Make sure each string is going to its corresponding midi channel, 1 through 6.  Call up the tuner within the TP app.  Is there any peculiar behavior when you hit each string, low E through high e?
Monitoring the MIDI output when I hit an open string and another string on the 7th fret and above...
If I hit both at the same time, both notes are sent correctly on their own MIDI channels.
If I hit the fretted note immediately after the open note, the fretted note has no MIDI output.
This behavior is the name if the open note is the E for example, and the fretted note is on any of the other strings.  If the fretted note is hit just after the open note, there is no MIDI output but if they are picked/plucked at the same time, there is MIDI output.
Same story using poly, mono or finger or pick mode.  The tuner doesn't indicate any problems at all - all strings show a level when they are supposed to.
And this is interesting.  If I hit an open string and then hit a note that is on a LOWER string but on the 6th fret (not 7th) or above (higher on the fretboard) then there is no MIDI output for the fretted note.  This is similar behavior except that the demarcating fret is different.
So if I "pluck" multiple strings high on the fretboard with an open E or A, they all sound out, but if I do the same chord and pick or strum hitting the open string first, then the others are silent - except for maybe the last string.  It's as if it's waiting for the note off on the open string.  But this doesn't matter lower on the neck.  And there are no splits - or if there are, it's one split over the whole fretboard.  I'm in Hardware Synth mode which utilizes Split One.  All the others are disabled.
And yes... I've got the latest software and firmware installed on the Connect.  It's strange.

cellomangler

Quote from: Bluesbird on May 19, 2022, 05:46:50 PMI would guess that you have monitor hand position checked and that either you are using non-standard tuning or have incorrect values for the "open string tuning." Try unchecking "monitor hand position."
Yup that was it.  Thanks for figuring that out for me.  Looks like I'm gonna have to bite the bullet and change to a regular set of electric strings.  It still glitches too much for live use - I'll be able to input some sequence data, some chords and lead lines with cleanup.  I really don't care for the software but it is what it is.  I just wish the Connect had a switch to select 3 stored settings and forget all the split stuff.   8)

kimyo

Quote from: cellomangler on May 20, 2022, 12:41:59 AMI just wish the Connect had a switch to select 3 stored settings
you can access saved presets using the buttons on the unit. 

the software doesn't need to be running.

for live use try limiting the number of active strings.

cellomangler

Quote from: kimyo on May 20, 2022, 07:19:54 AMyou can access saved presets using the buttons on the unit.
Yeah... I'm struggling with this.  Seems like it doesn't want to remember the last settings.  I try holding down the back button when I plug it into USB and sometimes that works.  I can't tell what preset I'm on from the hardware of course.  Is it suppose to save a preset to the hardware when you save it in the app or do you always have to RESEND HARDWARE PATCHES  from the PATCHES menu?
Quote from: Bluesbird on May 20, 2022, 07:24:15 AMExperiment with pickup height. What are your string sensitivity settings? Are they in the soft, normal or strong category?  Are your sensitivity numbers low while still going into the strong category?  The TP pickup is very sensitive and getting the height and sensitivity right can make a world of difference, and using "monitor hand postion" with standard tuning eliminates most glitching and enables me to play troublesome piano patches without glitching.  The way I use the Tripleplay app is in this way: before a jam session, I open the app and select a user patch with the bend, and mode (poly or mono) that I would like to use. After I select that patch, it is stored in the Connect device. After that, I close the app. I use it just for the initial setup. I go into my daw and choose Tripleplay as my midi controller input and that is it. If you don't want to use the app at all, you can just use the Connect in the default poly mode.
Yup.  I'm gonna keep experimenting with new standard strings and I'll update on Sunday. I finally figured out how to keep the standalone app open and control VSTi in Cantabile (as well as external)  This lets me see the effect of sensitivity settings without having to shut the app down, which is what was happening before - rather painful.  I actually had the strings about a half mm too close to the pickup.  Dang that thing is sensitive!

FishmanSoftware

Unfortunately the TriplePlay firmware makes some assumptions about the pitch range for each string, so that explains why your idea doesn't work. Maybe in the future we can address this limitation, but for now you need to keep each string within about 4-5 semitones of standard tuning to get it to work reliably.
-John

kimyo

Quote from: FishmanSoftware on May 23, 2022, 10:55:21 AMUnfortunately the TriplePlay firmware makes some assumptions about the pitch range for each string, so that explains why your idea doesn't work. Maybe in the future we can address this limitation, but for now you need to keep each string within about 4-5 semitones of standard tuning to get it to work reliably.
-John

some time ago i asked fishman support if the pickup could be mounted in reverse and this was the reply:

QuoteSome of the design features (how the cable runs from the pickup, etc.) are less convenient in this orientation, and the encoder's functionality will be reversed. You might experience some unbalance in the pickup response, but it shouldn't be catastrophic.

could you clarify?  also, is the primary issue in this usage case the hand position detection?  thanks.

FishmanSoftware

Quote from: kimyo on May 23, 2022, 11:06:35 AMsome time ago i asked fishman support if the pickup could be mounted in reverse and this was the reply:

could you clarify?  also, is the primary issue in this usage case the hand position detection?  thanks.
For lefty operation, the pickup can be mounted in the reverse position, but obviously the connecting wire might be a bit more in the way and you would need to mount the controller in a non-standard way.
What you really want to do is follow the instructions this guy gives at 4:30 to "lefty" mod the pickup wiring:
  which will give a you a clean solution.
The normal tracking, and hand position detection logic, will work correctly whether you mod the pickup wiring for lefty or simply flip the pickup around, since the relative string tunings are all still correct (or relatively close to standard tuning). What doesn't currently work is when the strings are way out of standard tuning.
FYI, most of our emphasis is on making a "normal" guitar track better, rather than trying to support a guitar with all high-E strings. Having said that, we are considering all customer ideas and problems, so keep 'em coming.

kimyo

my scenario is different, it's not a lefty guitar. 

in order to combine usb connections i'd like to put the tripleplay connect board inside the cavity. 

on my guitar this will require installing it with the cable on the side of the high e string.

i do not use the hand position detection or splits.  i will be using standard eadgbe or alt tunings within +/-3 half steps. 

are you saying this won't work?  won't work well?  what type of issues should i expect?

FishmanSoftware

Quote from: kimyo on May 23, 2022, 04:25:36 PMmy scenario is different, it's not a lefty guitar. 

in order to combine usb connections i'd like to put the tripleplay connect board inside the cavity. 

on my guitar this will require installing it with the cable on the side of the high e string.

i do not use the hand position detection or splits.  i will be using standard eadgbe or alt tunings within +/-3 half steps. 

are you saying this won't work?  won't work well?  what type of issues should i expect?


The solution for this turns out to be identical to the lefty case. For your use case, you need to swap the pickup wires as shown in that video I linked to, and once you do that, everything should work normally.

In a nutshell, if you use the pickup without wiring modification, then the pickup wire must be near the low E string. If you reverse the wiring order as shown in the video, then the pickup wire must be near the high E string.

cellomangler

#17
OK I went with a recommendation and installed D'Addario Chromes, Jazz Light strings.  Made a definite improvement.  Plus I tweaked and retweaked the string height and sensitivity settings.  I had figured that using the Trigger pitch bend mode would be the best but I'm actually finding that Smooth is less prone to glitches using mono in MIDI Mode with finger picking.  I've got the Open String Tuning back at the default.  My next experiment is to use a Breath Controller for expression with applicable synth voices - SWAM in particular.  I'll be adding pertinent video to my Youtube channel Garflips in the near future.

While I got the Connect meeting reasonable expectations on my custom guitar now, (thanks for all the assistance!) I'd sure like to see several improvements in the next iteration of the Tripleplay Connect:
1.  Ability to use all high E or B strings or best choice/optimal string gauge for fastest, most accurate tracking.
2.  Simpler saving of presets to the hardware for standalone use with a visual indication such as an LED or switch as to which preset it is on.  Myself, I could get by with as few as 3 presets if I could easily select and know that a particular preset was active.
3.  The ability to transpose strings individually in either MONO or POLY mode without requiring Splits, which I personally find useless.
4.  A more robust USB connection to the Connect hardware.
5.  Anything else I've left out... ::)
Thanks again -
Cellomangler/Garflips

FishmanSoftware

Quote from: cellomangler on May 26, 2022, 05:08:42 PMWhile I got the Connect meeting reasonable expectations on my custom guitar now, (thanks for all the assistance!) I'd sure like to see several improvements in the next iteration of the Tripleplay Connect:
1.  Ability to use all high E or B strings or best choice/optimal string gauge for fastest, most accurate tracking.
2.  Simpler saving of presets to the hardware for standalone use with a visual indication such as an LED or switch as to which preset it is on.  Myself, I could get by with as few as 3 presets if I could easily select and know that a particular preset was active.
3.  The ability to transpose strings individually in either MONO or POLY mode without requiring Splits, which I personally find useless.
4.  A more robust USB connection to the Connect hardware.
5.  Anything else I've left out... ::)
Thanks again -
Cellomangler/Garflips
Thank you for your very specific feedback and suggestions for improvement. No promises, but we will continue to try to improve TriplePlay, and the more specific and clear the suggestions are, the better.

cellomangler

#19
Quote from: FishmanSoftware on May 27, 2022, 11:09:13 AMThank you for your very specific feedback and suggestions for improvement. No promises, but we will continue to try to improve TriplePlay, and the more specific and clear the suggestions are, the better.
Couple more suggestions that I forgot to put on the list... This is an important one:
The pickup should be designed with much more adjustment capability such that each hex magnet can be raised or lowered independently.  Movement for string spacing would also be nice but magnet height adjustment would greatly ease setup.  It's a real pain to have to keep compromising the playing action of the guitar particular with various neck radius to get the proper string output.  Also various gauges of strings have varied output on the hex magnets.  Even a method involving small shims placed under the magnets would be better than nothing.
It would also be better if the custom tuning settings were saved with the patch and not set as a global setting for all patches under preferences.
- my 3 cents.

FishmanSoftware

Quote from: cellomangler on May 28, 2022, 10:37:53 AMCouple more suggestions that I forgot to put on the list... This is an important one:
The pickup should be designed with much more adjustment capability such that each hex magnet can be raised or lowered independently.  Movement for string spacing would also be nice but magnet height adjustment would greatly ease setup.  It's a real pain to have to keep compromising the playing action of the guitar particular with various neck radius to get the proper string output.  Also various gauges of strings have varied output on the hex magnets.  Even a method involving small shims placed under the magnets would be better than nothing.
It would also be better if the custom tuning settings were saved with the patch and not set as a global setting for all patches under preferences.
- my 3 cents.
Thanks again for your clear and detailed suggestions.
Keep in mind that it is usually a lot easier to make changes to the software and/or controller firmware than to (for example) modify the mechanical design of the pickup. Also, as you are likely aware, the string sensitivity settings can compensate for quite a wide range of string height adjustment, especially on the wireless version.
Finally, FYI, the tuning settings in preferences are not "custom tuning settings", instead they are telling the software how the guitar is actually tuned, which allows the fret markers to work properly, and allows the feature "Monitor hand position" to work properly. Adding a custom per-string tuning setting for each patch makes a lot of sense as a feature request.

cellomangler

Quote from: FishmanSoftware on May 31, 2022, 01:04:28 PMFYI, the tuning settings in preferences are not "custom tuning settings", instead they are telling the software how the guitar is actually tuned, which allows the fret markers to work properly, and allows the feature "Monitor hand position" to work properly. Adding a custom per-string tuning setting for each patch makes a lot of sense as a feature request.
Yes... I understand about the tuning settings and a custom per-string setting per patch is indeed what I'm referring to.
Down the road I'm sure there will be more advancement in guitar/pitch to MIDI conversion.  Probably the best improvement could be made in "squelching" unintended notes.  I've tried about every permutation of settings, height, etc and I still get too many errant notes, particularly when lifting off of a string.  If I try to eliminate sensitivity, then I compromise the range of MIDI velocity expression.  Something that helped with an older GK3/GI-20 system was to add some dampening to the actual strings. I found it helped to put a cut section of a rubber band (not too thick) under the strings where they cross the bridge saddles.  Though it does cut the sustain a bit it helped with the spurious MIDI output.  A bit of dampening just after the strings pass over the nut doesn't hurt either. 8)
For me personally, the greatest use of the Fishman Tripleplay is to enter MIDI into a DAW where I can work in segments and easily clean up the MIDI.  In this regard, I'm very satisfied with the functionality I'm getting out of my custom dedicated Tripleplay Axe. ;)


cellomangler

Quote from: Bluesbird on May 31, 2022, 03:41:10 PMCellomangler, What pickup clip mount are you using?  Is it the thinnest of the bunch?
I actually tried several combinations of shims plus double sided tape. I believe it's the middle height spacer with one layer of double sided tape on there now - I used a black magic marker on the sides of the normally white tape. I actually prefer to err to having better dynamic MIDI velocity output over spurious notes as notes are easy to delete. I'm strictly using my rig for recording MIDI into a DAW. I understand that some folks are getting results that are actually clean enough for playing live but I have no intention of doing that - I've got the (now venerable) SY-300 if I want to get synthy on guitar live.  That said, I'm sure I'll keep experimenting with all the factors involved.  I just wish the next iteration of MIDI hexaphonic pickup - regardless of manufacturer - would have individual pickup adjustment, vertically and laterally.  Cheers!

ampedup

There's no way I could play live with tripleplay, I've never done a clean performance and I'm a decent player. It's only good for recording and for that I love having it and have used it a lot. I like your midi guitar, very cool.

bonanote

#24
Quote from: cellomangler on May 26, 2022, 05:08:42 PMOK I went with a recommendation and installed D'Addario Chromes, Jazz Light strings.  Made a definite improvement.  Plus I tweaked and retweaked the string height and sensitivity settings.  I had figured that using the Trigger pitch bend mode would be the best but I'm actually finding that Smooth is less prone to glitches using mono in MIDI Mode with finger picking.  I've got the Open String Tuning back at the default.  My next experiment is to use a Breath Controller for expression with applicable synth voices - SWAM in particular.  I'll be adding pertinent video to my Youtube channel Garflips in the near future.

While I got the Connect meeting reasonable expectations on my custom guitar now, (thanks for all the assistance!) I'd sure like to see several improvements in the next iteration of the Tripleplay Connect:
1.  Ability to use all high E or B strings or best choice/optimal string gauge for fastest, most accurate tracking.
2.  Simpler saving of presets to the hardware for standalone use with a visual indication such as an LED or switch as to which preset it is on.  Myself, I could get by with as few as 3 presets if I could easily select and know that a particular preset was active.
3.  The ability to transpose strings individually in either MONO or POLY mode without requiring Splits, which I personally find useless.
4.  A more robust USB connection to the Connect hardware.
5.  Anything else I've left out... ::)
Thanks again -
Cellomangler/Garflips
Hello , were you able make FTP work with the SWAM Sax ? I have been struggling for the past week, using the FTP Connect on an iPad with AUM and the SWAM Tenor Sax and was unable to get the PitchBend to drive the Sax properly. The PitchBend MIDI data from the FTP is all over the place , it is not smooth at all and actually it randomly modifies the pitch of the note. When I use it in "Trigger" mode there is no issue whatsoever, but as soon as I try the other modes ( Auto and Smooth ) I cannot control the Sax PitchBend, and worse, some notes are out of tune.   So finally I gave up trying different PitchBend combinations , and now I found an acceptable method which is: I use FTP in Trigger mode, and I drive the Sax PitchBend with the Jamorigin MidiGuitar2 , and the Sax Expression with the MG2 Aftertouch. Although somewhat complicated , for me it is a very good solution because the FTP tracks more precisely and faster than the MG2 , but the MG2 has an excelent PitchBend which is very smooth and it outputs Aftertouch to drive the Expression ( so I am not using the Breath Controller ). I would be interested in your thoughts on the FTP  - Swam Sax combination. Thanks