Delete

Started by Bluesbird, April 27, 2022, 08:30:07 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Bluesbird

Delete

admin

Too bad it's only 4 voice

And no MIDI MODE4 MONO MODE ,  so not ideal for MIDI Guitar (no support for independent string bending)

The Roland D-05 remains a better solution for MIDI Guitar
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=21712.25#msg253653

gumtown

Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

Matteo Barducci

#3
Quote from: admin on April 27, 2022, 07:22:26 PM
Too bad it's only 4 voice

And no MIDI MODE4 MONO MODE ,  so not ideal for MIDI Guitar (no support for independent string bending)

The Roland D-05 remains a better solution for MIDI Guitar
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=21712.25#msg253653

It has NOT 4 voices.

It's full polyphonic with 4 parts an 1 drum part, so you can program each part with different timbres and play it in full polyphony, to max 256 voices.

You could specify a different MIDI channel for each part, so you could play a different timbre up to four strings and a drum part on the fifth.

If you put a monophonic timbre on each channel, you have the equivalent of MIDI mode 4

As found on the MIDI.org forum:

"The main example use of Omni Off Mono mode (Mode 4) with multiple channels is a MIDI guitar controller that is set to send each string on a different channel. It will send mode messages to set the receiver to the Omni Off Mono 6-channel mode.


If the receiver's Basic Channel is set to Channel 1, the sender should send:

B0 7C 00 [Control Change Channel 1, Controller 124, Value 0 (Omni Off)]
B0 7E 06 [Control Change Channel 1, Controller 126, Value 6 (Mono On, 6 channels)]

Then the individual strings will be sent on channels 1 to 6.


If the receiver's Basic Channel is set to Channel 2, the sender should send:

B1 7C 00 [Control Change Channel 2, Controller 124, Value 0 (Omni Off)]
B1 7E 06 [Control Change Channel 2, Controller 126, Value 6 (Mono On, 6 channels)]

Then the individual strings will be sent on channels 2 to 7.


Each individual string's channel is monophonic (maximum of one pitch at a time), but when you consider all six strings' channels together you can hear up to 6 pitches at a time.

The advantage of using 6 monophonic channels is that they can have independent Pitch Bend. This lets you represent bending one string on a guitar without affecting the pitch of the other strings. (If you use 1 polyphonic channel, Pitch Bend affects all the notes on the channel at the same time.)


MIDI MODES ARE OLD

Be aware that MIDI modes seem to be designed for a time when MIDI receivers were only able to produce one instrument sound at a time (mono-timbral) and were focused on receiving one channel of MIDI data. A typical receiver was mainly intended to be set to listen to one MIDI channel (its Basic Channel) and ignore the others. To get multiple instrument sounds, you were expected to connect multiple receivers and set each to listen to a unique channel.

Modern MIDI receivers can produce more than one instrument sound at a time and listen to all channels as unique channels. This is called "16-channel multi-timbral". A single physical receiver that is 16-channel multi-timbral can be considered to contain 16 virtual single-channel receivers. Each of the virtual receivers is set to listen to one of the channels from 1 to 16, and is always in Omni Off and can't be changed to Omni On.

Sometimes modern multi-timbral receivers don't implement Mono modes at all. In that case, each of the 16 virtual receivers can be considered to always be in Mode 3 (Omni Off Poly), and the mode messages only have the same effect as an All Notes Off message for the channel.

This means when using modern 16-channel multi-timbral receivers, the mode messages are usually not important. Understanding the mode messages is mainly an exercise for the technically curious, or those that happen to have a MIDI receiver that actually uses the mode messages."
--

---> Matteo Barducci

Matteo Barducci

#4
Juno-X (as Jupiter-X/Xm, as Fantom and Fantom-0 series) uses ZEN-Core synthesis engine that includes different models.

Juno-X is ONE model (exclusive to this particular synth). The others are Juno-106, Juno-60, etc... each one with a specific voice count. You could import a model per each part (up to four), so, for example, you could load 4 istances of the Juno-X model, each one with 16 note polyphony. In this case, the maximum available polyphony is reduced according to the processing power of the BMC FPGA.

--

---> Matteo Barducci

Matteo Barducci

BTW new Rolands are pretty impressive machines.

they share a common architecture, but some features are unique per-machine.

- Fantoms have n/zyme sampler/granulator;
- Jupiter-X/Xm have Jupiter-X model;
- Juno-X has Juno-X model

The rest of models/banks/expansions is interchangeable
--

---> Matteo Barducci

admin

#6
Quote from:  Bluesbird on April 28, 2022, 06:19:12 AM
The reference guide, page 53, states that the Juno X model has 16 note polyphony and the pcm voices have up to 256 note polyphony.

All on one MIDI Channel,  so not relevant for MIDI GUITAR Pitch bending use

Quote
It's full polyphonic with 4 parts an 1 drum part, so you can program each part with different timbres and play it in full polyphony, to max 256 voices.

You could specify a different MIDI channel for each part, so you could play a different timbre up to four strings and a drum part on the fifth.

If you put a monophonic timbre on each channel, you have the equivalent of MIDI mode 4

True. So  it supports pitch bending  4 strings

The Roland D-05 supports pitch bending all 6

(Why)
Because bending strings on a MIDI GUITAR controller uses MIDI PITCH Bend messages , and those are channel wide-requires separate MIDI Channel per string (6)

Which is tough to find a hardware  synth that supports that.

A GR-33 , or a Waldorf Blofeld. Or the Roland D0-5 do support 6 multiple MIDI Channels

Further info here

Matteo Barducci

Roland D-05 is a monotimbral instrument. At the time, they implemented MIDI mono mode to allow individual bending, but you are restrained with the same timbre.

Yes, the Juno-X - as his brother Jupiter-X - are 4-part multitimbral, so you can program up to four different timbres to play with a stringed instrument. For a guitar they are less than useful, but for a bass guitar would be fine. And yes, you could specify the pitch bend for each MIDI channel, so you can bend individual strings for each MIDI channel assigned to them!

For a guitar use, the Fantom series (even the Fantom-0 which is less expensive than Juno-X) will offer you true 16-part multitimbrality with the same sound engine, with individual MIDI channel to be set for each part. With this (but with every multitimbral sound device...) you could go far beyond the old MIDI mode 4.
--

---> Matteo Barducci

admin

QuoteRoland D-05 is a monotimbral instrument. At the time, they implemented MIDI mono mode to allow individual bending, but you are restrained with the same timbre

Which for most Guitarists is prefered.

If you never bend strings,  then any MIDI Tone module is fine

Chumly

Excuse my ignorance and a bit off topic questions:

1. Does the Roland Integra-7 have MIDI MODE4 MONO MODE?
2. Does the Korg Kronos X have MIDI MODE4 MONO MODE?
I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. - Richard P. Feynman

chrish

Why not just use a SY1000 for analog synth modeling?

Personally unless I was a keyboard player I wouldn't bother with buying a keyboard because there are so many other options out there.

Want a real analog poly 6 synth that supports MPE? Try a $500 Dreadbox Nymphes. Great sound and great tool for learning subtractive synth. No keyboard clutter.

Matteo Barducci

Quote from: admin on April 28, 2022, 11:59:55 AM
Which for most Guitarists is prefered.

If you never bend strings,  then any MIDI Tone module is fine

The misconception is this.

With a multitimbral MIDI synth/module, you could bend each channel separately. So you have the same results as MIDI mode 4, which applies only to monotimbral modules.
--

---> Matteo Barducci

Matteo Barducci

Quote from: Chumly on April 28, 2022, 05:06:20 PM
Excuse my ignorance and a bit off topic questions:

1. Does the Roland Integra-7 have MIDI MODE4 MONO MODE?
2. Does the Korg Kronos X have MIDI MODE4 MONO MODE?

No, because it is useless.

Both are 16-part multitimbral.

Create a new patch with 6 part, assign the same monophonic timbre (or different timbres, as your choice) for each part, assign a different MIDI channel for each part with individual pitch bending message reception for each channel and you have MIDI mono mode.
--

---> Matteo Barducci

Matteo Barducci

#13
Quote from: chrish on April 28, 2022, 09:11:50 PM
Want a real analog poly 6 synth that supports MPE? Try a $500 Dreadbox Nymphes. Great sound and great tool for learning subtractive synth. No keyboard clutter.

Nymphes is a monotimbral module and have a very basic MIDI implementation. It will be useless (no more useless than monotimbral modules without MIDI mode 4, thus...) for guitar synth. MPE means nothing for us because nor SY-1000 nor other pitch-to-MIDI systems send MPE messages.
--

---> Matteo Barducci

Kevin M

This looks like a really versatile synth.  I liked what I heard in the demo.

chrish

Quote from: matbard on April 29, 2022, 02:47:53 AM
Nymphes is a monotimbral module and have a very basic MIDI implementation. It will be useless (no more useless than monotimbral modules without MIDI mode 4, thus...) for guitar synth. MPE means nothing for us because nor SY-1000 nor other pitch-to-MIDI systems send MPE messages.
I haven't loaded the new firmware that loads MPE, so haven't had a chance to test. But my understanding is that MPE is like having midi mode 4 as far a pitch bend goes. It is very confusing to me though.

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=29231.0

admin

#16
Quote from: matbard on April 29, 2022, 02:47:53 AM
MPE means nothing for us because nor SY-1000 nor other pitch-to-MIDI systems send MPE messages.

Jamstick Studio claims to sends MPE

http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/zivix-jamstik-studio

If you are wondering where you set up things like the basic modes of operation (single channel versus multichannel; pitchbend on or off etc.), that's all in the Jamstik Creator Mac/Windows plug‑in. That's also where you can adjust individual string sensitivity, MIDI tunings/transpositions and check tuning. It's also a VST instrument that makes good use of Jamstik Studio's MPE (MIDI Polyphonic Expression) mode, which is now part of the MIDI spec.

MIDI guitar players have been using a sort of version of MPE for years, with each string on its own channel so that individual pitchbend messages to be transmitted, but the full MPE spec allows for other per‑string real‑time control data, too. When the Jamstik Studio is set to MPE mode, MIDI CC11 data is generated from string amplitude, tracking the envelope of the notes and then mapping that data to the synth voices in the plug‑in. It makes for a very natural 'guitaristic' playing experience, as instinctive things like left‑hand lift‑off damping and right‑hand palm muting have a useful effect on the output. Of course, the receiving instrument has to know how to do something useful with CC11 data, so you'll not find it particularly effective just firing a torrent of MPE data at any of your DAW's virtual instruments that aren't set up for it.

Smash

If I understand it correctly, MPE is less of a ball ache to set up. You just select the timbre you want and you're good to go whereas mono mode you have to set up 6 instances of the same timbre on different channels. Same result granted but more agro. It's about convenience.

Jamstik has MPE and mono mode IIRC.