Tripleplay triple disappointing.

Started by retnev, February 17, 2022, 11:42:19 PM

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retnev

I played a lot of midi guitars, but the short few minutes I was allowed on a Synthaxe is till this day the best midi guitar experience I ever had.
So, since I cannot afford a secondhand synthaxe I was left with pitch-to-glitch system and or button fretboards.
The latter had spectacular latency and way less glitches, but it completely destroys your guitar playing as you need to develop a new feel as there are no strings on the left hand. That is unacceptable. The pitch-to-glitch like the Axons and Tripleplay gives me great feel of course and does not alter it, but with much worse latency and the darn annoying glitches.

For a bit less than a decade now I have been playing Axon. Recently i thought I will try Fishman as they said it was an improvement.
So what did I find ?
I still get better latency with the Axon Ax100, and although config is awkward on the unit, I can manage better string sensitivities and much less glitches. It seems clear to me that the Fishman Tripleplay's strengths are the fantastic wireless operation and the floorcontroller. That is absolutely brilliant. Bravo!

But, with that comes seeming extra wireless latency (Axon is wired thus no latency introduced due to transmission method) and with slightly worse tracking than the Axon.

The Tripleplay still uses an arched pickup that is very difficult to set up for more modern guitars which all good ones basically have a much flatter fretboard radius than the fishman midi pickup. It seems like Fishman is stuck in the 1954 Fender 7.25" radius mindset, while all modern guitars are at the bottom end 10" radius to absolutely flat, with the bulk around 14-16" 
Yet the little adjustment to bend the pickup a bit more straight is futile for about all my guitars and basically unusable.

So to make a long story short; The Fishman did not work out for me. Total waste. I am back at my Axon with GK3 although I really miss the wireless system. It is really great. Otherwise it is just "Big Data" connected to a pitch-to-glitch mess in my opinion.

After all this background here is my  *QUESTION*

I will get rid of the Tripleplay, but want to ask here if there is anything available I maybe dont know of that is not pitch-to-glitch, and rather use actuated triggering but is not pushbutton fretboard based that I may have missed or overlooked.

Maybe there is a Roland or other product I am unaware of i can try.

I plug directly into synthesizers and do not use "Big Data" patches, so if there are any glitches I know it immediately.
   

admin

Try a VGuitar system (SY-1000, VG-99

much Lower latency when using their internal sounds

If you seek a Synthaxe experience,  you can tap the fretboard on a You Rock guitar. Or try  Ztar

ITL

You may want to took at the wired fret solutions currently out there (i.e. Rob O'Reilly or the OMB guitar).  Zero triggering latency, but have their own unique issues in terms of triggering open strings and price is a consideration.
LGXTSA, Godin Session Custom TriplePlay w/ Fishman Piezo, JTVariax59, Axe-FXII, Integra 7, Motif XS, VoiceLive 3

retnev

#3
ITL.
That is the right way to go, rather than to guess and preempt in software to guess when a note is going to play as the Axon and Tripple Play does.
If you only play ambient type things then the pitch-to-glitch systems like Tripleplay is fine.

I contacted O'Reilly a year or so ago to order a custom version. I didnt want the blue scratchpad thing which does nothing I am interested in and needed a wider neck as I play fingerstyle. Unfortunately he didnt want to part with the pad   and I have to buy it with that. I will try him again to see if he didnt change his mind.

I see you list a Motif. I have one too. If you do a fast i-m picado with the right hand i-m fingers on your fishman at tempo of approximately 400bpm (beat on every individual  i and m), do you get a lot of strange annoying ghost notes that are not related pitch wise to any adjacent notes available. ( as reference: when you are plugged into the Motif) ?
It seems clear to me that it cannot track picado remotely that fast (and even happens at way lower tempos)  without introducing weird ghost notes. That is not even a fast picado and sort of intermediate.
When I play exactly the same picado or i-m  on the "lowly" Yamaha ez-eg, it executes perfectly and can do the 400bpm picado without any introduced artifacts.   But the buttons (and only 12th fret) .. not good.


Bluesbird.
You are barking up the wrong tree. I did a "Performers Licentiate" in classical guitar and can play piano. That is not the point.
You claim the Tripleplay is "glitch-free". Is there any such guarantee on fishman's site ? This looks like an absolute claim that is demonstrably false.



Brak(E)man

The best "real guitar to midi " I've tried was the zeta mirror.
I've given up a long time ago,  I'm sticking with the VGs,the GP and the SYs.

But if your looking for a guitar controller (like the synth axe)
But much cheaper and newer I'd try https://playjammy.com/jammy-e/.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

aliensporebomb

#5
The Zeta Mirror - the stuff of dreams.  I had sent away to Zeta for the flyer and spec sheets even.  And some utter moron bought a bunch of the remaining stock, and for reasons known only to them pulled all the electronics out of the guitars and sold them as standard guitars.  That guy should really be punished.  I really wanted one but they're all destroyed now.   Interestingly, Warmoth was selling bodies to duplicate the look but the whole point was to get that fret-wired neck, controller and such.   I've never even seen a real one in person.   The guitars were set up so you could use them as a regular guitar just like the Roland synth guitars but for whatever reason some guy decides "nobody will ever want a guitar synth" and rips all the wiring out.  UGH.  Makes me mad, maybe someday I'll find an unmolested one.   But to be honest, the VG-99 (or SY-1000) is about as good as I could expect an experience in "futuristic guitars".  That being said, the Mirror was not affordable when it was in production, I think it was guitar, processing module and footpedal for several thousand dollars.  Zeta just makes electric violins now of course.   

Last time I checked there was one of the guitars on reverb for about $300 but it looked pretty rough like it would need a lot of work and it didn't have the synth electronics module to make it go and no floor pedal of course.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

admin

The seldom mentioned issue with all wired fret MIDI Controllers is the need to polish the oxidation from the top of the frets as a monthly routine exercise.
Since the steel strings and Fret act as on/off switches , any resistance due to oxidation renders the MIDI Controller aspect of the instrument unplayable delivering inconsistent performance

retnev

Quote from: aliensporebomb on February 19, 2022, 07:30:38 AM
The Zeta Mirror - the stuff of dreams.  I had sent away to Zeta for the flyer and spec sheets even.  And some utter moron bought a bunch of the remaining stock, and for reasons known only to them pulled all the electronics out of the guitars and sold them as standard guitars.  That guy should really be punished.

That is sad indeed. You cant fix stupid, only punish it.
Since there were only about 300 made, it is going to be hard to find one unmolested.
There is very little available about the Zeta, but it in principle is done right if what you are after is midi with accurate fidelity.

retnev

#8
Quote from: admin on February 19, 2022, 09:08:54 AM
The seldom mentioned issue with all wired fret MIDI Controllers is the need to polish the oxidation from the top of the frets as a monthly routine exercise.

I dont mind that, The design must be in principle done right, the required maintenance is normal. If it is fret based detection then I dont mind if I have to polish the frets once every week or so. Totally acceptable. As long as I get high fidelity Midi and not the glitchy-ghosty lowfi nonsense.
"Pitch to glitch" designs like fishman and axon exists purely because normal guitars can be easily modified without damage.
The price you pay for that  is midi with almost unacceptably low fidelity (latency problems, huge latency on bass strings compared to treble, ghost notes and unreasonable misstriggers) . These are created as the design is based on is not optimal (compared to fret switching). Pitch to glitch requires you to play at a lower level than your normal ability in order to get fidelity. This is not acceptable and why it doesnt become mainstream like Holdsworth e.g. made the Synthaxe as heard on lots of monumental records. It was a real instrument that did not inhibit his abilities too much as compared to pitch-to-glitch that tends to make you feel as you are sent back to nursery school. He said basically the same about pitch-to-glitch even in the late 2000's when he tried new offerings.
Fishman e.g. had a great opportunity to design a new hex pickup that could be adjusted from flat to 7.25". Now we sit with bowed pickups things we try to flatten into submission which seldom is optimal. That really disappointed me when I received the Tripleplay. The usergroups over the years were littered about the curved nature and lack of proper adjustability of the curcvature of the GK pickup. It should have been one of the main concerns to fix. If that wasnt fixed, then I doubt anything else changed from the Axon design except adding wireless. The latter is done REAL WELL and I truly like it with a passion, but is now useless to me as I need to move on  to something more professional if it exists.


retnev

#9
So in summary:
So far it seems the only options which were mentioned here which does the following
a) fret switched,
b) has strings in both left and right hands
are;
1) Synthaxe
2) O'Reilly
3) ZETA Mirror
4) Jammy EVO. Right direction, but this video scares me away -

Let me know of any more options satisfying a) & b).
(*I know there are more, but since other well known ones were not mentioned they were likely not found preferable*)

chrish

#10
Was the industrial radio guitar mentioned?

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6078.0

admin

Quote from: retnev on February 19, 2022, 04:07:54 PM
So in summary:
So far it seems the only options which were mentioned here which does the following
a) fret switched,
b) has strings in both left and right hands are;
is;
1) Synthaxe
2) O'Reilly
3) ZETA Mirror
4) Jammy EVO. Right direction, but the looks and this video scares me away -

Let me know of any more options satisfying a) & b).
(*I know there are more, but since other well known ones were not mentioned they were likely not found preferable*)

Other MIDI GUitar Controllers  with divided frets

Industrial Radio Solange
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6078.0

InnMusic / Fret-x/FretTrax
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2536.25





retnev

#12
Quote from: chrish on February 19, 2022, 09:24:51 PM
Was the industrial radio guitar mentioned?
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6078.0


I will look into it. thank you for the post. this is one I dont know of.


Pricey, but if it actually tracks  without ghost notes it is great.  I ideally would want 1.5ms latency as anything after that becomes noticeable.
"https://industrialradio.com.au/products/solange-6-midi-guitar/"
Hope they supply it with a 5pin din output also. I dont want the USB Big Data stuff. Computers live is a real problem and I rather play into a hardware synth(s).
Just checked and they have 5pinDin for straight into hardware keyboards - fantastic.
"https://industrialradio.com.au/products/fsi-1-fretsense-interface/"

This might on the face of it, be the solution if it works as claimed.
Only drawback I can see is that it is not 24fret, but it will be good enough for most applications
How I would try it is the difficult question. Lot of money to just buy and try.

retnev

#13
Ok case closed:
Frettrax (if it is fret switching) or
IndustrialRadio (definitely is) is basically all you need.
(*Frettrax patent was sold, they do not do converisons anymore*)

No need to fumble around with pitch-to-glitch anymore.
All the frustration dealing with pitch-to-glitch cost more in the end than saving up for one of the above and then actually being able to play properly.
O'Reilly ZETA Mirror are probably reasonable alternatives if push comes to shove.

Thanks all for helping.

BROCKSTAR

Dang... sure going to miss seeing "pitch-to-glitch" mentioned again.... lol

admin

#15
Quote from: retnev on February 21, 2022, 06:41:01 PM
Ok case closed:
Frettrax and IndustrialRadio is basically all you need.
No need to fumble around with pitch-to-glitch anymore.
All the frustration dealing with pitch-to-glitch cost more in the end than saving up for one of the above and then actually being able to play properly.

Thanks all for helping.
.next battle is accurately  calibrating the six individual strain gauge string tension  torque sensors to accurately respond and reproduce bending strings - its six separate calibration points for your specific gauge strings - And temperature and humidity can impact the response curve. -so calibration must be performed at the venue , pre show.
Here are the tech details
https://www.fraunhofer.de/en/press/research-news/2011/july/guitar-and-computer.html


And you need a External Synth that can respond to 6 separate Incoming MIDI Channels, one per string - as pitch bend is a Channel wide message, requires 6 MIDI CHANNELS to reproduce what you play (known as MIDI MONO MODE4) - its a short list of synths that support that.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=50.0

When I tried the Industrial Radio Solange MIDI GUITAR at 2018 NAMM,  sadly in a race to travel to Anaheim to attend the show, the Industrial Radio Solange MIDI GUITAR  floor demonstration guitar was not setup for MIDI MODE4 , so string bending did not work on the unit I tried

The earlier Industrial Radio Wired Fret  MIDI Bass (Peavey Cyber Bass , Valley Arts MIDI Bass) never employed string tension sensors, so neither supported string bending or string vibratos

But seems many under age 40 no longer bend strings  - prefer high speed two hand taping
(But hey I do Boomer Bends, so perhaps no support for string Bending is OK for your needs  )
Big reason Industrial Radio Wired Fret instruments focused on MIDI Bass Controllers  -  Not MIDI Guitar

shawnb

Anybody actually have one of those?

$4K + 1 year build time...

I sure hope it works.
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

gumtown

Just sitting back and doing some deep thought on guitar and bass "pitch to midi",
if the higher the note/pitch the quicker the detection is,
so what if the string pitch was shifted up to say 4 octaves (or more) before the pitch detection was done.

The detection time would multiply that much quicker, and also allow a few extra cycles to ensure correct pitch and less glitch.

A floating thought passing by. . . . .  .
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

FishmanSoftware

Quote from: retnev on February 17, 2022, 11:42:19 PM
I played a lot of midi guitars, but the short few minutes I was allowed on a Synthaxe is till this day the best midi guitar experience I ever had.
So, since I cannot afford a secondhand synthaxe I was left with pitch-to-glitch system and or button fretboards.
The latter had spectacular latency and way less glitches, but it completely destroys your guitar playing as you need to develop a new feel as there are no strings on the left hand. That is unacceptable. The pitch-to-glitch like the Axons and Tripleplay gives me great feel of course and does not alter it, but with much worse latency and the darn annoying glitches.

For a bit less than a decade now I have been playing Axon. Recently i thought I will try Fishman as they said it was an improvement.
So what did I find ?
I still get better latency with the Axon Ax100, and although config is awkward on the unit, I can manage better string sensitivities and much less glitches. It seems clear to me that the Fishman Tripleplay's strengths are the fantastic wireless operation and the floorcontroller. That is absolutely brilliant. Bravo!

But, with that comes seeming extra wireless latency (Axon is wired thus no latency introduced due to transmission method) and with slightly worse tracking than the Axon.

The Tripleplay still uses an arched pickup that is very difficult to set up for more modern guitars which all good ones basically have a much flatter fretboard radius than the fishman midi pickup. It seems like Fishman is stuck in the 1954 Fender 7.25" radius mindset, while all modern guitars are at the bottom end 10" radius to absolutely flat, with the bulk around 14-16" 
Yet the little adjustment to bend the pickup a bit more straight is futile for about all my guitars and basically unusable.

So to make a long story short; The Fishman did not work out for me. Total waste. I am back at my Axon with GK3 although I really miss the wireless system. It is really great. Otherwise it is just "Big Data" connected to a pitch-to-glitch mess in my opinion.

I can see that you are ready to move on to something else, but I will still try to provide some info that might be helpful to you or others.

1) There is a wired version of TriplePlay called Connect (currently less than $250 street price), but be aware that the wireless latency is very low (~1 ms or less). The best argument for wired operation is no risk of radio interference. But you like the wireless, so I suggest that you don't worry about the extra latency. Compared to the pitch detection it is very very low.

2) The pitch detection latency of the TriplePlay is as good or better than the Axon. The same person designed the algorithm for both and the TriplePlay has seen some improvement since the Axon was developed. Having said that, we did ship a batch of TP controllers where we accidentally increased the latency, so make sure you use the latest TriplePlay software to update the controller to the latest firmware.

3) If you are seeing slightly worse tracking in TriplePlay vs Axon, I would have to guess that it is the guitar. Some guitars just tend to glitch more than others. Also (as you no doubt already know) string gauge, string type, string age, exact details of guitar setup, fixed bridge vs trem bridge etc. and more have significant impact on how any pitch to MIDI system will track. More on glitches below...

4) The TriplePlay pickup has a 12" radius, which was chosen as a compromise. But even with a perfectly flat fretboard, you should be able to adjust the string sensitivities to work well. The curvature of the TriplePlay pickup does not explain what you are reporting in terms of accuracy or speed.

5) We recently added a new feature called monitor hand position that estimates the notes that you can reach from the notes that are recently fretted and prevents a large percentage of common ghost notes. This is disabled by default, but you can enable it using the latest TriplePlay software for Mac and Windows, and the setting is stored in the controller. There are also other settings that are related, where you specify how the open strings are tuned; this is important to set correctly to allow Monitor Hand Position to work properly. I seriously suggest you give this new feature a try!!

Best of luck on your quest for better MIDI guitar performance!

-John

retnev

#19
Quote from: admin on February 21, 2022, 07:32:08 PM

And you need a External Synth that can respond to 6 separate Incoming MIDI Channels, one per string - as pitch bend is a Channel wide message, requires 6 MIDI CHANNELS to reproduce what you play (known as MIDI MONO MODE4) - its a short list of synths that support that.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?board=50.0

But seems many under age 40 no longer bend strings  - prefer high speed two hand taping
Big reason Industrial Radio Wired Fret instruments focused on MIDI Bass Controllers  -  Not MIDI Guitar

I do not need bending at all for what I do on midi guitar.
All I need is very low latency as some of the fingerstyle is way above 400bps, and then e.g. 5ms and above is totally unusable.
The fishman fails miserably when you go above +300bps with alternating i-m, while eg the lowly Yamaha EZ-EG has no problems tested past +400bps both tested on a single fretted note.


I really appreciate your recommendation of the IndustrialRadio. Did not know about them.
Info is worth gold and what I have seen so far looks right down my alley.
I dont mind a wired solution at all.

Now just to find one I can try out.
That is the big problem.

Again thank you and user  "chrish"  very much for the great information on industrial radio.