Variax std - Awful Electronic Synthy Sound on Rick & 12 string Acoustic models

Started by smarsde, November 20, 2021, 03:43:37 AM

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smarsde

Apologies as this has been done to death I think but I'm not satisfied that we've got to bottom of it.

I have a Variax Standard bought new in 2018, the Rickenbacker guitar bank and 12 string acoustics have always sounded awful; synthy and even electronic in sound, especially on individual string plucking. All the other guitar banks I though were pretty good, so I just passed it off as best they could do or setup I'd need to do at some point to sort out if I wanted.

Anyhow I started recently to explore and try these guitars and quickly tried to find out why on these forums but it seems a bit of a techie rabbit hole with no clear solution and i find some folk seem to have got them working fine, yet others not.

I've replaced strings recently with same 10s as originals and tried the string dampening suggestions at neck and had a dabble at piezo bridge end albeit not to the full extent as some have recommended but even by stuffing blue tac in the hole over the string behind piezo contact and I'd have expected some improvement if this was the issue but no change whatsoever, so I'm not convinced that's the issue or at least the key issue. Oh yes and I have lowered the mags right down. Damn this is tedious!

So I recently contacted Line6, tbh their responses have been quick so fair play to them, but they said to do a factory reset and get guitar setup checked and refresh patches, so after some hassle I managed the factory reset and got latest firmware reinstalled. I also took the option to remove presets.

I replaced my presets with Arislafs Variax model bundle - these are great and hats of for his great work, complete star and proper gent!

Anyway no improvements to these guitars, even with Arislafs presets, so for me that kind of rules out the presets themselves as the issue.

I then checked the neck relief, seemed good to me, adjusted string height to Yamaha electric guitar (Pacifica Manual) heights, well as accurately as I could - damn hard to see actual heights with a rule at an angle even with lit magnifier glass and feeler gauges not easy on a curved fret board with all strings on together, anyway I got it close enough I think, no buzz and a little closer. Then I sorted the intonation as a result, all good as far as I can tell.

No difference to the sound though; although something weird happened, i had it set on the Rick bank when switched back on and immediately it sounded fine. Then I though wait a minute best check the Rick bank is recognised properly so switch to mags to make sure and then back again - basically pressing selector nob in till light turns off then on again. Still sounded more guitar like, great! Then I switched (turned) guitar selector nob to Acoustic and these still sounded bad, turned back to Rick bank and they were bad again. WTF!

I also discovered that in Workbench HD on 12 string models the parallel pitch is set to 0 on higher strings and to 12 on the lower strings, if I set one of these to 0, the problem goes away but then I guess I'm removing the 12 string effect in doing so. I just wonder if there is something in the Variax preset side or even the electronics of the modeller itself, who knows!

Line 6 just say send it to an authorised line 6 specialist, but nearest one to me is over 100 miles away plus cost of whatever is needed when out of warranty I am not keen to make a special trip, and to replace the guitar is not an option as they are double now what I paid in 2018!

So now I'm totally out of ideas but hope either this helps someone, likely not, or maybe with this extra detail helps someone point me to some possible answer which may help others who are stuck with this issue.

I use the Variax via a Helix LT into a Headrush FRFR112

Once again Arislafs work is stellar guys, check it out.

Brent Flash


admin

Separately Test your Variax Standard loaded with Arislafs Bundle using a normal 1/4" guitar cable only into a guitar amp  - without the Helix LT

See if your Variax Standard's sound improves and all functions work correctly

If you use Variax Standard with Helix LT using a VDI RJ45 cable,  the Helix LT takes over the control of the Variax, and may prevent the variax 12 string patches to function correctly, as a deep dive of the Helix LT parameters for the current Helix LT Patch Input block settings may reveal the Helix LT by default disables the upper strings on the Variax 12 string functions. It also presents ability to mix normal mag PU with the Variax DSP  - but often this results in phase errors that may spoil the Variax tone

the Helix LT is a bit of a maze to navigate, particularly when connected via VDI cable  to a Variax

Review Helix Patch settings on Input Block

Helix Parameters FW 3.1.1

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aJZ9eOGuI8I_b6t9HH_lmn6N17LkbYIJV8OuQAwgaEs/edit?usp=sharing


smarsde

Quote from: admin on November 20, 2021, 10:00:59 AM
Separately Test your Variax Standard loaded with Arislafs Bundle using a normal 1/4" guitar cable only into a guitar amp  - without the Helix LT

See if your Variax Standard's sound improves and all functions work correctly

If you use Variax Standard with Helix LT using a VDI RJ45 cable,  the Helix LT takes over the control of the Variax, and may prevent the variax 12 string patches to function correctly, as a deep dive of the Helix LT parameters for the current Helix LT Patch Input block settings may reveal the Helix LT by default disables the upper strings on the Variax 12 string functions. It also presents ability to mix normal mag PU with the Variax DSP  - but often this results in phase errors that may spoil the Variax tone

the Helix LT is a bit of a maze to navigate, particularly when connected via VDI cable  to a Variax

Review Helix Patch settings on Input Block

Helix Parameters FW 3.1.1

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aJZ9eOGuI8I_b6t9HH_lmn6N17LkbYIJV8OuQAwgaEs/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks will give it a go later and report back, I got a Yamaha THR, much appreciated.

smarsde

Quote from: admin on November 20, 2021, 10:00:59 AM
Separately Test your Variax Standard loaded with Arislafs Bundle using a normal 1/4" guitar cable only into a guitar amp  - without the Helix LT

See if your Variax Standard's sound improves and all functions work correctly

If you use Variax Standard with Helix LT using a VDI RJ45 cable,  the Helix LT takes over the control of the Variax, and may prevent the variax 12 string patches to function correctly, as a deep dive of the Helix LT parameters for the current Helix LT Patch Input block settings may reveal the Helix LT by default disables the upper strings on the Variax 12 string functions. It also presents ability to mix normal mag PU with the Variax DSP  - but often this results in phase errors that may spoil the Variax tone

the Helix LT is a bit of a maze to navigate, particularly when connected via VDI cable  to a Variax

Review Helix Patch settings on Input Block

Helix Parameters FW 3.1.1

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aJZ9eOGuI8I_b6t9HH_lmn6N17LkbYIJV8OuQAwgaEs/edit?usp=sharing

Well I tried this but no difference, seems like the Helix is not the culprit. I checked the helix input settings and nothing untoward there as far as I can tell. Nevertheless made sense to try this, thanks for suggestion.

gbr13697

I have a Variax Standard and a JTV.  When I got them I thought that the guitar type modelling was good (given some correction to the string volumes), but the tuning was less good.  As you say, any string that is varied from its natural tuning sounds synthy.  It is OK banging away on chords in open tunings but, as soon as you play single strings, it really jars.  The 12 string models shift the tuning a whole octave, and they have always been virtually unusable to my ears.  They can be tolerable for a few jangly chords, but that does not make them usable generally.
I most often use Open G and Open D tunings on my Variax's, and I try to minimise the issue by leaving them physically tuned to Open G.  When I switch to Open D, the 1st and 6th strings (which are the most noticeable) stay tuned to D and are unaffected by the Variax electronic tuning.  If I physically tune to standard, the electronic downtune from E to D makes the high E sound awful.
I find it difficult to understand how the Variax electronics can make a Yamaha Pacifica sound acceptably like a wide range of electric and acoustic instruments, yet it can't change the pitch slightly without ruining the sound.  All the sounds are presumably synthesised to some extent.  If the system can make the high E of an electric guitar sound like high E of a different instrument, why can't it make it sound like a D without turning it into a synth?
As for the 12 string modelling, the Variax is no worse than other systems.  I have a Vox Starstream with built in modelling (but no tuning) and the 12 string models are just as bad. I also have a GK pickup on an Epiphone SG, and a Graphtech Ghost in a new guitar, with a Boss GR55 or SY1000 doing the tuning. The tuning artefacts are no better, and the 12 strings are still crap!

admin

QuoteI have a Variax Standard and a JTV

Which specific model JTV?

Quotealso have a GK pickup on an Epiphone SG, and a Graphtech Ghost in a new guitar, with a Boss GR55 or SY1000 doing the tuning. The tuning artefacts are no better, and the 12 strings are still crap!

I recently compared 12 string and Alt Tunings with JTV-59 & JTV-69 with Helix

Vs

JTV-69 with GK-3 feeding SY-1000

My result were the JTVs with Helix were warble toys

While GK-3 with SY-1000 delivered surprisingly good results  i would use at live perfirmance and not cringe -no contest and superior to the Line-6  solution.



gbr13697

My JTV is a JTV69.  The mag pickups are single coil in the Standard and JTV69, not that I would use either in that mode in preference to any of my other guitars.  The Variax electronics should be the same in both, although the layout is different on the JTV69.  There is no reason that the Variax simulations should sound any different, and I can't detect any difference.  The Standard is set up for slide, with a very slightly raised nut, higher action at the bridge, and one gauge up in strings. I play slide mainly in Open G and Open D, and occasionally in Open E.
The JTV is used in Open G (Keith Richards style with a silent Low E), Open G with the Low E tuned up to G unision with the 5th string (as used by Rick Parfitt), Open E, Open D, Drop D, and a few other variations on DADGAD etc.

I had always hoped that I could get the Variax's to sound good enough in altered tunings that I could avoid having other guitars left in various tunings, but I have never really achieved this.  I still have 2 guitars set for slide, and 2 more for non-slide open tuning.  They are all cheap guitars, but they sound far better than the electronically tuned Variax's.  I just use the Variax's for quick practice so that I can switch between tunings instantly, and for the lesser used tunings where I don't have other guitars permanently set.
I have tinkered endlessly.  The contrast between electronically tuned strings and physically tuned strings, in tone and volume, is what jars.  It is mostly covered up when strumming chords, but slide or single note lines really make it noticeable. The highest and lowest strings are always most noticeable, and I have found that leaving the guitars physically tuned to Open G does make the switch to Open D sound better, since both strings stay physically tuned to D.  I have also found that a Tele model, on Bridge/Neck with both pickups moved towards the middle, and string volumes customised for each tuned preset, makes the sounds more acceptable.

The Vox Starstream has 2 humbuckers and no special pickups at all, but it does a surprisingly good job of emulating a good range of electric and acoustic models, including banjo and resonator.  It does not do alternative tunings, and the 12 string emulations are much the same as the Variax's.

I have an old Epiphone SG with a GK3 pickup, and I recently got an Emerald Virtuo with built in Graphtec Ghost piezos and a 13 pin output.  It also has a TRS output jack which allows for the magnetic and piezos to be split between different amp setups, in addition to a signal from the 13 pin GK output.  The drawback with the GK system is that it is proprietory and must be used with a Roland/Boss synth, though these systems are far more versatile than just guitar sounds and alternative tunings. I do think that the guitar modelling is better in the Roland synths than the Variax, but there is a lot more hardware involved. Certainly the alternative tunings are better straight out of the box, as opposed to all the Workbench tinkering needed to optimise the Variax. The end result on tunings is probably still a bit better than the Variax's.  However I have still to find a convincing 12 string in any of these options.  If you want the sound of a 12 string guitar, I think you still have to buy a 12 string guitar!

admin


gumbo

Ha !

In my bleary-eyed first 'look-of-the-day', I thought this thing had control knobs for 'Watch Later' and 'Share'...    ::)
Read slower!!!   ....I'm typing as fast as I can...

philjynx

Quote from: gumbo on November 21, 2021, 01:41:56 PM
Ha !

In my bleary-eyed first 'look-of-the-day', I thought this thing had control knobs for 'Watch Later' and 'Share'...    ::)
I hadn't noticed that. I'm delighted to confess that years ago when I worked in IT I did a screen grab of a co-workers PC and then displayed it full screen on their PC. They were clicking icons for a good five minutes before they realised it was NOT their desktop.... The engineers will no doubt put this thread back on its rails now.

smarsde

Quote from: gbr13697 on November 21, 2021, 02:33:37 AM
I have a Variax Standard and a JTV.  When I got them I thought that the guitar type modelling was good (given some correction to the string volumes), but the tuning was less good.  As you say, any string that is varied from its natural tuning sounds synthy.  It is OK banging away on chords in open tunings but, as soon as you play single strings, it really jars.  The 12 string models shift the tuning a whole octave, and they have always been virtually unusable to my ears.  They can be tolerable for a few jangly chords, but that does not make them usable generally.
I most often use Open G and Open D tunings on my Variax's, and I try to minimise the issue by leaving them physically tuned to Open G.  When I switch to Open D, the 1st and 6th strings (which are the most noticeable) stay tuned to D and are unaffected by the Variax electronic tuning.  If I physically tune to standard, the electronic downtune from E to D makes the high E sound awful.
I find it difficult to understand how the Variax electronics can make a Yamaha Pacifica sound acceptably like a wide range of electric and acoustic instruments, yet it can't change the pitch slightly without ruining the sound.  All the sounds are presumably synthesised to some extent.  If the system can make the high E of an electric guitar sound like high E of a different instrument, why can't it make it sound like a D without turning it into a synth?
As for the 12 string modelling, the Variax is no worse than other systems.  I have a Vox Starstream with built in modelling (but no tuning) and the 12 string models are just as bad. I also have a GK pickup on an Epiphone SG, and a Graphtech Ghost in a new guitar, with a Boss GR55 or SY1000 doing the tuning. The tuning artefacts are no better, and the 12 strings are still crap!
Have to agree with what you have said, jangly but useable for chords and given what they have miraculously achieved with other guitars / instruments it makes you wonder how they can't solve this if this is the issue. The bit that still doesn't make sense is that the sample sounds on the line 6 website demonstrate how they can sound, so I stilll think there's something in the mix of this problem that Line6 either aren't saying or can't work out themselves.

smarsde

Guys, looks like we've run out of road on this one but thanks to all who tried to help here, much appreciated. I found some stuff regarding string volume adjustments in Workbench HD in another forum which seemed more convincing than I saw in yet another forum, so I'm giving that a shot later as you never know, think I dismissed it previously as too much trial n error faf!

I'll report back on results / what I did either way.

admin

Quote from: smarsde on November 24, 2021, 05:57:53 AM
Guys, looks like we've run out of road on this one but thanks to all who tried to help here, much appreciated. I found some stuff regarding string volume adjustments in Workbench HD in another forum which seemed more convincing than I saw in yet another forum, so I'm giving that a shot later as you never know, think I dismissed it previously as too much trial n error faf!

I'll report back on results / what I did either way.

Contact Partev Sarkissian (the main Variax Repairman) on Facebook Variax page or Line-6 Forum

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1465580137096236/

marcwormjim

The Variax 12 string simulations have always been lousy, and were even worse in the 1.0 models (anyone remember playing a natural harmonic with one?). The only solution is mitigation via decreasing the octave string levels in workbench or turning down the tone knob. Same goes for Roland COSM 12 string models. That said, you may find the stock sounds' artifacts aren't as glaring in a mix with other instruments.

smarsde

Thanks folks I think I got there in end by tweaking in Workbench, dropped the global string levels, then dropped the mix on patch string to around 25 to 35 from low e to g and a few adjustments to the cents on each of same until it started to sound more reall then added 20% mag mix and it seemed to get nicer still. So think I finally got there. What a faf and disappointing you have to mess around like this - how close it is to the real thing I have no idea but at least they sound like guitars again!
Thanks to all who chipped in to help. Much appreciated.