StringPort alongside another interface under OS X

Started by spk, February 20, 2011, 06:15:37 AM

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spk

Hello, Future Guitar Now folks!

I posted the following at the KMI forum, but figured it might generate more useful comments if I cross-posted here too, since there seem to be several StringPort users on this board. If for some reason that's not OK, mods please feel free to delete/edit this thread as appropriate.

I'm interested in using the StringPort + Guitar Rig, on a Macbook running Snow Leopard, to replace my VG-8EX.

I mainly use the VG-8EX to allow me to switch tunings in the middle of a song (sometimes triggered by footswitches, sometimes by sequencer automation), and to provide FX and amp modelling. I figure the StringPort - or at least, plugins operating on the hexaphonic signal the StringPort would input to the Macbook - could handle the tunings, and Guitar Rig could handle the FX and amp modelling. This would be a weight off my back, and it would probably also provide better integration with my sequencer.

This raises a couple of questions:

1. In order to simply input a hexaphonic guitar signal into my sequencer, would the StringPort without bundled software be adequate to work as described above? (At least, assuming I could use a VST pitch shifter on each string's signal, where necessary, to create alternate tuning patches.)
2. If not, then:
A. Would I be able to switch patches in the StringPort software from my sequencer?
B. Is it possible to disable all parts of the StringPort software except the minimum necessary for alternate tunings, to reduce the load on my Macbook's system resources?

- -

On a slightly different note, I would want to be able to have slightly more I/O going into & out of my sequencer (Cubase or Reaper), while using the StringPort, than the StringPort provides on its own. I haven't settled on my main interface yet, but it will probably be a PreSonus FireStudio Project. This brings up more questions:

3. Is it OK to have another audio/MIDI interface running simultaneously with the StringPort?
4. If so, would it be better to have a FireWire or USB interface?
5. Are there any problems to be aware of (e.g. sync problems between the clock of the StringPort and the clock of the other interface) and if so, how would you suggest solving them?

Many thanks in advance for your help!

- spk

vanceg-fgn

#1
Quote from:  spk on February 20, 2011, 06:15:37 AM
Quote
1. In order to simply input a hexaphonic guitar signal into my sequencer, would the StringPort without bundled software be adequate to work as described above? (At least, assuming I could use a VST pitch shifter on each string's signal, where necessary, to create alternate tuning patches.)

Yes. If you can manage to find VST pitch shifters that you like enough and have low enough latency to please your ear, this is surely possible.  I would love to know if you find one.  I have not yet.

Quote from:  spk on February 20, 2011, 06:15:37 AM
2. If not, then:
A. Would I be able to switch patches in the StringPort software from my sequencer?
Yes. 
Quote from:  spk on February 20, 2011, 06:15:37 AM
B. Is it possible to disable all parts of the StringPort software except the minimum necessary for alternate tunings, to reduce the load on my Macbook's system resources?

Yes. The minimum necessary would be the Hex Fuzz module which you can run more-or-less on it's own. It takes a good bit of CPU resources, though.  And, you might want to listen to the pitch shifter in the Hex Fuzz module before you commit to replacing your VG-88 with it.


Quote from:  spk on February 20, 2011, 06:15:37 AM

On a slightly different note, I would want to be able to have slightly more I/O going into & out of my sequencer (Cubase or Reaper), while using the StringPort, than the StringPort provides on its own. I haven't settled on my main interface yet, but it will probably be a PreSonus FireStudio Project. This brings up more questions:

3. Is it OK to have another audio/MIDI interface running simultaneously with the StringPort?
4. If so, would it be better to have a FireWire or USB interface?
5. Are there any problems to be aware of (e.g. sync problems between the clock of the StringPort and the clock of the other interface) and if so, how would you suggest solving them?


You would have to use the Aggregate Audio device to combine your StringPort with another interface. I have done this with both Firewire and USB devices.  I have found that the latency and extra CPU load that using Aggregate Audio Devices creates is not worth the effort and have completely dropped using that method.  But that's just me. You may find differently or have different standards.

spk

Fair point about VST pitch shifters; thank you. I seem to remember using one or two in the past that seemed adequate, but you're right that I ought to be certain about this before abandoning the VG-8EX.

Ditto about the Hex Fuzz module. In your opinion, how does using the latter for alternate tunings compare to using a VG-8EX or similar Roland unit? (If you feel like uploading an audio file or a YouTube vid demonstrating the difference, that would be excellent!)

Thanks too for your heads-up about aggregate audio devices. I had been under the impression that the latency of the aggregate device would be no worse than that of the slowest interface that is part of it, but it seems from what you've said that it may indeed be worse. I'm curious how much worse, and I realise this would probably depend upon OS, computer spec, drivers, and so on. But taking a stab in the dark, what would you guess the latency difference would be between a StringPort on its own and that same StringPort combined with a Presonus FireStudio Project under an aggregate device, on a 2.16GHz Core 2 Duo Macbook with 4GB RAM?


vanceg-fgn

I would be happy to post a comparison of the pitch shifting in the VG-99 and StringPort hex fuzz unit, but I am not near either device right now as I'm up in Alaska, and not at home in Seattle.  I MAY be able to find time to do so in the not-too distant future.

To me, the VG-99 actually has the best per-string pitch shifting for guitar out there right now. Is it the best pitch shifter ever, no, but but for price/performance, I think it's pretty darn amazing. One of the really important points to me is that the VG-99 has several pitch shifting systems that can function at the same time:
Alternate tunings,harmonization,  Bend, 12 string, Detuning. This combination of features is pretty unbeatable among existing products...IM(not so)HO.

The latency isn't MUCH worse when combining interfaces. You are correct that each interface is just about the same...you basically end up with the worst of the two devices.... The thing that bugs me most is the fact that on my 2.13Ghz macbook pro using an aggregate device uses up 7-9% more power than either unit alone.  More modern laptops might do much better.  I'll tell you next month when I buy my new MacBook (expected out on Mar 24)

Vance

spk

Hi Vance,

Thanks for another helpful reply. Your points about the VG-99 are well taken. It's certainly an impressive unit. Unfortunately, it's also expensive and cumbersome.

Ideally, I'd like to replace my existing rig with one that includes IEM transmitter, radio-mic/guitar receivers, patchbay, audio interface, laptop, PSUs and possibly also a small controller like the Korg NanoKontrol, and which will also fit in a Gator Studio-4-Go, so that with this plus a gig bag for my guitar, I'll be good to go. (That way, I won't need to borrow cars or use taxis: I'll be able to get most places by public transport, which suits my budget better!) For foot control, the SoftStep looks like the most tempting option at the moment: small and light enough to fit in the gig bag; yet powerful enough to handle transport, patch & bank changes, & control changes.

It's hard to see how a VG-99 would fit into that setup. Also, using a VG-99 instead of a StringPort (or, instead of a StringPort, a Bill Baxendale or RMC breakout box into a FireStudio Project or similar) would sacrifice the ability, should I want it, to record hexaphonically.

My budget's already tight enough that assembling one of these solutions will be a struggle; I'm afraid that buying both is out of the question for the foreseeable future, so I'm keen to find the best compromise! :)

One possible saving grace for me is that there are only two alternate tunings I need, for my compositions so far, to be able to switch to instantly during performance: drop-Eb and drop-D. So even if the quality of the pitch shift isn't great, it would at least be masked to some extent by the sound of the other, non-shifted strings.

Since I started posting here about replacing the VG-8EX, I've also taken to wondering about mechanical rather than electronic solutions for alternate tunings. My main guitar has a Tune-O-Matic bridge, which doesn't lend itself to modification, but I also own a cheap Strat copy into which I suppose I could retrofit a Hipshot Trilogy bridge. On the other hand, that guitar doesn't have 24 frets. So far, I don't need 24 frets for the songs that use the alternate tunings, but it would still mean carrying two guitars, and being reliant on both of them; rather than carrying just one guitar - or perhaps one main guitar and a backup guitar with the same capabilities, in case the main guitar develops a fault...

Hm, decisions, decisions!

- spk

spk

Hi Vance,

Quote from:  vanceg on February 20, 2011, 11:50:30 AM
If you can manage to find VST pitch shifters that you like enough and have low enough latency to please your ear, this is surely possible.  I would love to know if you find one.  I have not yet.

I just had a run through of some, and you're right: I wasn't satisfied with the way any of them handled a simple semitone drop. I didn't find any that came close to the VG-8EX :(

Quote from:  spk on February 20, 2011, 06:15:37 AM
Quote from:  vanceg on February 20, 2011, 11:50:30 AM
The minimum necessary would be the Hex Fuzz module which you can run more-or-less on it's own. It takes a good bit of CPU resources, though.  And, you might want to listen to the pitch shifter in the Hex Fuzz module before you commit to replacing your VG-88 with it.

Agreed. This means the StringPort is ruled out for me until:

  • I become convinced that the Hex Fuzz module's pitch shifting is at least as good as that on the VG-8EX.
  • I have enough money for the full version of the StringPort!

There's another impediment, too: today I found some really useful tones that I just couldn't quite manage to emulate in Guitar Rig 4 sufficiently for me to be happy replacing the VG-8EX with Guitar Rig 4 alone for guitar tones :(

Weirdly enough, these weren't synth sounds: they were straightforward distortion pedal, amp and cab emulations.

Guess that means I'll be lumbered with a VG unit of some description for the foreseeable future, unless the StringPort software is not only capable of making alternate tunings as well as the VG-8EX does, but is also capable of closely mimicking the VG-8EX's distorted guitar patches.

Any idea how close the StringPort's software comes to emulating a VG-8EX's Modern Stack amp/cab and Metal pedal settings? My guess is that it probably wouldn't come much closer than Guitar Rig 4, but I may be wrong.

In any case, thanks again for all your replies. You've been very helpful in drawing my attention to the strengths and limitations of the various options I've asked about here, and I'm extremely grateful for all the time you've saved me by doing so!

- spk

vanceg-fgn

Yeah, I've tried absolutely every single VST based pitch shifter I can find, and even built several in Max/MSP and I can't find any which work as well as the VG-series. They either incur too much latency (as is the case with most of the Analysis-Resynthesis (fft)  bases pitch shifters) or they just don't sound as good as I want them to.

That said - I'm always open to new options and if anyone finds a software based pitch shifter they love, I'd be more than happy to hear about it!!!

I DO like the pitch shifting in my Eventide H8000 enough to use, and it can deal with the 6 channels of guitar, but that means carrying around a $4500 box that weighs 3x as much as the VG-99 and is larger and harder to carry.  This was the approach I was going to take, but the cost/benefit just wasn't there.  (Don't get me wrong...I'm never giving that box up!  It's just relegated to studio work and live sound work).

Vance

Quote from:  spk on February 21, 2011, 03:55:31 PM
Hi Vance,

Quote from:  vanceg on February 20, 2011, 11:50:30 AM
If you can manage to find VST pitch shifters that you like enough and have low enough latency to please your ear, this is surely possible.  I would love to know if you find one.  I have not yet.

I just had a run through of some, and you're right: I wasn't satisfied with the way any of them handled a simple semitone drop. I didn't find any that came close to the VG-8EX :(

Quote from:  spk on February 20, 2011, 06:15:37 AM
Quote from:  vanceg on February 20, 2011, 11:50:30 AM
The minimum necessary would be the Hex Fuzz module which you can run more-or-less on it's own. It takes a good bit of CPU resources, though.  And, you might want to listen to the pitch shifter in the Hex Fuzz module before you commit to replacing your VG-88 with it.

Agreed. This means the StringPort is ruled out for me until:

  • I become convinced that the Hex Fuzz module's pitch shifting is at least as good as that on the VG-8EX.
  • I have enough money for the full version of the StringPort!

There's another impediment, too: today I found some really useful tones that I just couldn't quite manage to emulate in Guitar Rig 4 sufficiently for me to be happy replacing the VG-8EX with Guitar Rig 4 alone for guitar tones :(

Weirdly enough, these weren't synth sounds: they were straightforward distortion pedal, amp and cab emulations.

Guess that means I'll be lumbered with a VG unit of some description for the foreseeable future, unless the StringPort software is not only capable of making alternate tunings as well as the VG-8EX does, but is also capable of closely mimicking the VG-8EX's distorted guitar patches.

Any idea how close the StringPort's software comes to emulating a VG-8EX's Modern Stack amp/cab and Metal pedal settings? My guess is that it probably wouldn't come much closer than Guitar Rig 4, but I may be wrong.

In any case, thanks again for all your replies. You've been very helpful in drawing my attention to the strengths and limitations of the various options I've asked about here, and I'm extremely grateful for all the time you've saved me by doing so!

- spk

vanceg-fgn

Quote from:  spk on February 21, 2011, 07:28:23 AM
Hi Vance,

Thanks for another helpful reply. Your points about the VG-99 are well taken. It's certainly an impressive unit. Unfortunately, it's also expensive and cumbersome.


The expense I can see (though not much more than a StringPort...but I do love the stringport option).  Cumbersome?  It's very light (weighs much less than the gator case you will be using) and is 15"x10"x4.5". It's way, way, way easier to carry around than a VG-8 or VG-88.  Quite small. Now the FC-300 is large.  When weight is a concern, I suggest to my consulting clients that they go with the SoftStep.

Quote from:  spk on February 21, 2011, 07:28:23 AM
Ideally, I'd like to replace my existing rig with one that includes IEM transmitter, radio-mic/guitar receivers, patchbay, audio interface, laptop, PSUs and possibly also a small controller like the Korg NanoKontrol, and which will also fit in a Gator Studio-4-Go, so that with this plus a gig bag for my guitar, I'll be good to go. (That way, I won't need to borrow cars or use taxis: I'll be able to get most places by public transport, which suits my budget better!) For foot control, the SoftStep looks like the most tempting option at the moment: small and light enough to fit in the gig bag; yet powerful enough to handle transport, patch & bank changes, & control changes.

Softstep requires some programming and you, the user, have to be responsible for that (though I do like some of the newer presets...If I do say so myself..hehehehe). Softstep is a great answer here.  Go with it!


Quote from:  spk on February 21, 2011, 07:28:23 AM
It's hard to see how a VG-99 would fit into that setup. Also, using a VG-99 instead of a StringPort (or, instead of a StringPort, a Bill Baxendale or RMC breakout box into a FireStudio Project or similar) would sacrifice the ability, should I want it, to record hexaphonically.


That's true.  The StringPort excels at allowing one to record hexaphonically and you can't do that with the VG-99 (this was a STUPID DECISION on Roland's part, in my opinion. They should have included this feature in the USB output!.)   StringPort advantage; You can run the StringPort software... in which you can create some really bizarre and unique sounds if you wish...or even run multiple VST plugins using the VST Wall. 

With the VG-99, remember that you dont' have to bring a computer with you to get your alternate tunings. But, if you are like me and almost always play with a laptop no matter what, then this is a non issue - you might as well go with a StringPort.

I'd break it down like this: If you want to emulate standard guitar sounds and then expand from there into acoustic and ethnic and synth-ish sounds, and do not really require recording hexaphonically, use the VG-99. If you need to record hex, use the Stringport. Also, if you want the ultimate power (and responsibility that comes with it...in terms of programming and tweaking) in creating really 'out there' guitar/synth sounds, go with the StringPort.


Quote from:  spk on February 21, 2011, 07:28:23 AM
My budget's already tight enough that assembling one of these solutions will be a struggle; I'm afraid that buying both is out of the question for the foreseeable future, so I'm keen to find the best compromise! :)
One possible saving grace for me is that there are only two alternate tunings I need, for my compositions so far, to be able to switch to instantly during performance: drop-Eb and drop-D. So even if the quality of the pitch shift isn't great, it would at least be masked to some extent by the sound of the other, non-shifted strings.


Hmmm.  Well... I suppose so.... But won't you perhaps want more options over time? Either StringPort or VG-99 would provide that. You know my thoughts on the multiple types of pitch shifting that the VG-99 can perform already.

Quote from:  spk on February 21, 2011, 07:28:23 AM
Since I started posting here about replacing the VG-8EX, I've also taken to wondering about mechanical rather than electronic solutions for alternate tunings. My main guitar has a Tune-O-Matic bridge, which doesn't lend itself to modification, but I also own a cheap Strat copy into which I suppose I could retrofit a Hipshot Trilogy bridge. On the other hand, that guitar doesn't have 24 frets. So far, I don't need 24 frets for the songs that use the alternate tunings, but it would still mean carrying two guitars, and being reliant on both of them; rather than carrying just one guitar - or perhaps one main guitar and a backup guitar with the same capabilities, in case the main guitar develops a fault...


Well, if you want to be portable, two guitars seems overkill.  But there are some very nice advantages to manually detuning a guitar as you well know - many people really enjoy the feel of the instruments strings detuned (myself included).  And, if you are playing at high volume and want to get feedback on detuned guitars, this works a lot better if you have physically detuned the strings.

My mimalist setup is my custom headless guitar in a gig bag, a VG-99, SoftStep (with MIDI Expander), two EV-5 footpedals and a pair of footswitches.  All except the guitar fits in a small backpack and weighs less than 9 lbs.  REALLLLY easy to carry around. I can bike with the rig on very easily.  Public transport is a non-issue.  Of course, Im not including wireless or IEM (though i use IEMs...I just attach them to the house system).


spk

Lots of good points, Vance!

About the two guitars: my main guitar has a GK-kit installed. Backup guitar is a cheap-o with similar specs to the main guitar (24 frets, Tune-O-Matic bridge, dual humbuckers) but is much lower quality, and has a GK-2A screwed to it.

If I break a string or have another problem with my main guitar during a set, I'd feel awkward keeping a crowd waiting while I fix it. I'd also feel awkward asking to borrow someone else's guitar to finish the set with. Not least because I play pretty hard :D Besides, using someone else's guitar would either mean dropping songs that need a hexaphonic pickup, or sticking the GK-2A to the borrowed guitar, which some folks might object to. The backup guitar avoids these scenarios. Must say, I've been tempted to replace one or both of the guitars with a Steinberger, but that's a possibility that will have to wait until I'm more solvent.

As for the rest: I essentially agree. It might be lighter overall to ditch the VG-8EX, laptop, soundcard and rack case in favour of a VG-99 (and, in my case, a Zoom H4N or similar to play backing parts & click tracks that would otherwise be handled by the laptop). It would probably be more expensive, though, by at least a few hundred GBP, according to my calculations.

It seems the solution for me is indeed to stick, for the time being, with the guitars, the VG-8EX, and the laptop I already have. If I end up making any money from this musical project, I'll be looking at replacing the VG-8EX with a StringPort or a VG-99. If the former, I'll audition the StringPort software's pitch-shifting and amp/cab/distortion modelling against a Roland VG unit (not sure how I'd get access to a StringPort, though; perhaps someone (you? :)) will have posted a comparison online by then); if the latter, I might also replace the laptop with an H4N or similar.

Phew, decision made :)

Thanks again,

- spk