VG99 - Harmony Arp

Started by sixeight, November 09, 2018, 02:19:34 AM

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sixeight

Posted this sample in another thread of a VG-99/Helix patch:

https://soundcloud.com/cfeddema/harmonyarp
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=23099.msg178732#msg178732

Had some nice comments, so decided to make a full VG-99 patch of it. This patch will only play the arpeggiated guitar part. It sounds best with another direct guitar as well, but both paths are already used, so you will need an amp or second MFX processor to do the direct sound from your magnetic or piezo pickups of your guitar (the acoustic part in the example).

CTL-1 will do tap tempo.
CTL-2 will change from a user harmony to a nashville tuning

F1 - F4 knobs will set the delay times for the D, G, B and E string.
F5 will switch the master delay on and off (dotted eights)
F6 will set the key for the user harmony.

The user harmony is something i came up with on another patch and it is in my VG-99/Helix video.

The patch sounds best plucking or strumming chords in the key of E. Change the key if the harmonized part does not sound right.

Smash

Very clever indeed. Excellent work. My eyes are opened to the poly harmony which I'd never touched before!

sixeight

#2
This patch is so much fun. Trying to come up with picking rhythms that sound good on the "arped"guitar as well. This example sounds different from the previous one, as it uses amp models and chorus from the VG99. I love that thick Roland chorus. This is the patch that is in the first message of this post.

https://soundcloud.com/cfeddema/harmonyarp-2

All recorded in one take on one guitar!

vanceg

Quote from: Smash on November 09, 2018, 12:06:40 PM
Very clever indeed. Excellent work. My eyes are opened to the poly harmony which I'd never touched before!

Poly harmony is one of the most unique features of the VG-99.  It's PROFOUND.  I can't think of any other product on the market that has this feature.  I've created a version of it on the Eventide H9K....but that's an order of magnitude more expensive than a VG99.   I encourage everyone to check out the Harmony feature of the VG-99.  It's really deep!

bosetuno

Totally agree. But there's not much of a difference from the 1995 vg8. Think about it. Such a technology in 1995. Its amazing the only piece of equipment that offers something similar is the gp10. Well, and h9k. But in my opinion its not the same. It is more like having a computer with an interface to the separate strings on the guitar and process them separately.


Once more, Roland didn't marketed this feature much, despite being one used extensively by Adrian Belew, reeves gabrels, etc. Its a killer feature

There are a couple of things that bother me in the vg99. There's not stereo in fx and amps, so the feature of string planning is dumb. And there no ability to change preset harmony key via midi note.
Its a pity, it would have been perfect.

admin

#5
Quote from: bosetuno on November 12, 2018, 01:01:25 PM
And there no ability to change preset harmony key via midi note.
Its a pity, it would have been perfect.

You can create a Control Assignment to allow external MIDI CC to control the VG-99 Harmonist Key

Then use an external MIDI Controller with an Expression pedal that can sweep MIDI CC#20 ( value 1-127)




vanceg

Quote from: bosetuno on November 12, 2018, 01:01:25 PM
Totally agree. But there's not much of a difference from the 1995 vg8. Think about it. Such a technology in 1995. Its amazing the only piece of equipment that offers something similar is the gp10. Well, and h9k. But in my opinion its not the same. It is more like having a computer with an interface to the separate strings on the guitar and process them separately.


Once more, Roland didn't marketed this feature much, despite being one used extensively by Adrian Belew, reeves gabrels, etc. Its a killer feature

There are a couple of things that bother me in the vg99. There's not stereo in fx and amps, so the feature of string planning is dumb. And there no ability to change preset harmony key via midi note.
Its a pity, it would have been perfect.

Yep, and we spoke with Roland directly after the VG-99 was announced and requested all of those features and several more.   It was too late.   Note that you CAN create a stereo amp setup in the VG-99 if you use both channels at once:  You just have to assign 3 strings to one channel and 3 strings to the other, then pan your amps hard Left/Right.  But, that's not ideal.  SOME of the Effects ARE stereo.  What I do when I want a true stereo patch is I just avoid all of the Mono effects and the amp modeling.  I don't really care for amp modeling anyway...   Personally, I'd really like to see a COMPLETE 6 channel path.  That's why I have the H9000.

Unless I'm rembering incorrectly, and I don't THINK I am, the VG-88 did not have a true polyphonic harmony feature.  Am I misremembering that?  I sold the VG-8, and VG-88 when the VG-99 came out... that was a while ago....

bosetuno

Quote from: admin on November 12, 2018, 02:30:59 PM
You can create a Control Assignment to allow external MIDI CC to control the VG-99 Harmonist Key

Then use an external MIDI Controller with an Expression pedal that can sweep MIDI CC#20 ( value 1-127)



Thanks, i know it. However it will scroll through the keys within the defined range. I would like to press a note on a keyboard to set the key. Digitech units even recognize chords to set the proper key.

I still have to try to make a patch in max\msp that converts midi notes to midi cc values. That should work,but i didnt found the time to implement it. And you need a computer or tablet just for that...

vanceg

Quote from: admin on November 12, 2018, 02:30:59 PM
You can create a Control Assignment to allow external MIDI CC to control the VG-99 Harmonist Key

Then use an external MIDI Controller with an Expression pedal that can sweep MIDI CC#20 ( value 1-127)



Yes, you can control Harmonist key via MIDI, but you can't control the POLYPHONIC Harmony parameters via standard MIDI in the VG-99.  I think that this is what he was referring to.   You CAN, though, send SysEx to the VG-99 and control it that way...but response time is variable and it's not super simple to setup in that you have to set up proper SysEx control values. 

bosetuno

Quote from: vanceg on November 12, 2018, 03:32:17 PM
Yep, and we spoke with Roland directly after the VG-99 was announced and requested all of those features and several more.   It was too late.   Note that you CAN create a stereo amp setup in the VG-99 if you use both channels at once:  You just have to assign 3 strings to one channel and 3 strings to the other, then pan your amps hard Left/Right.  But, that's not ideal.  SOME of the Effects ARE stereo.  What I do when I want a true stereo patch is I just avoid all of the Mono effects and the amp modeling.  I don't really care for amp modeling anyway...   Personally, I'd really like to see a COMPLETE 6 channel path.  That's why I have the H9000.

Unless I'm rembering incorrectly, and I don't THINK I am, the VG-88 did not have a true polyphonic harmony feature.  Am I misremembering that?  I sold the VG-8, and VG-88 when the VG-99 came out... that was a while ago....

Yes, i,ve done that sometimes, but it is strange they implemented a panninig feature that was collapse to mono in the next block, dont you think?

I was thinking about the eventide way, you input the hexaphonic straight to it? I experimented with the Hexa output feature on the gp10, but the straight sound fo the hex pickup put me down, tbh

bosetuno

Quote from: vanceg on November 12, 2018, 03:40:09 PM
Yes, you can control Harmonist key via MIDI, but you can't control the POLYPHONIC Harmony parameters via standard MIDI in the VG-99.  I think that this is what he was referring to.   You CAN, though, send SysEx to the VG-99 and control it that way...but response time is variable and it's not super simple to setup in that you have to set up proper SysEx control values.

Oh really? Pity then

Elantric


vanceg

Quote from: bosetuno on November 12, 2018, 03:40:54 PM
Yes, i,ve done that sometimes, but it is strange they implemented a panninig feature that was collapse to mono in the next block, dont you think?

I was thinking about the eventide way, you input the hexaphonic straight to it? I experimented with the Hexa output feature on the gp10, but the straight sound fo the hex pickup put me down, tbh

Yes, I input hex signal directly into the H9000.  I do this using the Cycfi Nu pickups and their breakout box.  However, the same concept would work with a GK3 and a breakout box.  BUt this is getitng pretty far afield from the thread.  We can start another thread if you wish just about this topic.

bosetuno

Quote from: vanceg on November 12, 2018, 04:48:01 PM
Yes, I input hex signal directly into the H9000.  I do this using the Cycfi Nu pickups and their breakout box.  However, the same concept would work with a GK3 and a breakout box.  BUt this is getitng pretty far afield from the thread.  We can start another thread if you wish just about this topic.

Yes, I think it is a pretty good idea

bosetuno


aliensporebomb

#15
Getting back to the entire stereo debate - you'll notice most of my ambient style patches are as stereo as possible.

Even the rock guitar distortion patches are set up so it's producing a stereo image even though it's probably technically mono at the source.

However, generally most "let's plug the guitar into my marshall amp" style setups are mono.  Does it really matter?  Can it be used on a gig to make music?

Remember the Rick-o-Sound Rickenbacker stereo outputs on their guitars for stereo and Gibson's Alex Lifeson signature Les Paul had a "Life-O-Sound" dual output (but was magnetic pickup out and piezo pickup out) implying using a dual amp setup.

I realized recently when experimenting with the VG-99 into the GP-10 even though the VG was inputting the left output into the input for the GP-10 it was ultimately providing a stereo output when I was done (with use of effects) with it even though the source was mono.

Now the idea of using 3 bottom strings on the VG-99 through one amp for left channel and the upper three for right - that's an interesting thought.   Although, generally I'll be using two parallel paths sometimes for some of my patches.   

I know some other patches others have uploaded use the parallel paths to achieve a final result that uses both. 

Or you could do the X-Ray Simon Koyabo board method: two GK3 pickups and a VG and VB unit connected for two independent units with two separate stereo signal paths.

And then there's the thought with the harnony business - could you do two separate harmony arps in two separate parallel paths?
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

sixeight

#16
QuoteAnd then there's the thought with the harnony business - could you do two separate harmony arps in two separate parallel paths?

The arpeggios are made by using two dual delays on both paths, so you get four notes playing after one another. You need both paths to achieve that.

But you can each pair of individual notes or groups of notes (chords) to sound different by using different guitar, tuning, amp and/or effects on both paths.

Also check out the patches of Ludek on this board. He used to do some very creative stuff with the harmony tunings:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1887.0;attach=1952

And here is my first attempt from 2008 in this area, that got Ludek started as well:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=484.0;attach=785

chrish

I did a patch once where I applied external delays to the point where I played a Melody Line on guitar and four five seconds later into the music, a synth bass patch played that same line.

But like with all my multi gear patches, it disappeared into a cloud of smoke, keeping with the theme of improvisational creation.

I did record it however.  And used one of the ASB Vg99 ghostism patches for the lead improvised Melody sound.