Roland DP-8 / DP-10 / RPU-3 "half" Damper CC pedals - compatible with EV-5?

[CodeSmart]

Hi, I have found very little technical information about the Roland DP-10.
Does it work compatible with an EV-5 Expression pedal (10k pot) or how does it work electrically?
I was considering for example a pitch-bend scenario going one octave up when pressed.

To re-phrase, could I plug it into GP-10, GR-55 expression pedal input and the unit accepts it as an expression pedal?

[sixeight]

I have used a DP-10 DP-8 with my VG-99 and also with the VController, but can't remember if I used it with the GP-10. The GR-55 has no official expression pedal input. But the DP-10 now stays with my digital piano, which is in a different room from the guitar stuff.

[Markwaaron@icloud.com]

I found this regarding the VG-99 expression in. It would stand to reason that if an ev-5 works for both the VG-99 and the GP-10, and if six eight's statement that the DP-10 worked as a continuous controller on the VG-99 is correct, the DP-10 pedal uses a 10k linear pot like the EV-5 does. I am ordering a FPU-3, which I understand has the same pots as the DP-10 and will report back if it is successful as an expression controller with the GP-10.

Its odd you are using a FV-50 as an expression pedal for the FC-300

Two versions are available

FV-50H = High Impedance = 500K ohm ( for Guitar)
http://www.bosscorp.co.jp/products/en/FV-50h/index.html

And FV-50L = Low Imedance 20K ohm ( for Keyboards)
http://www.bosscorp.co.jp/products/en/FV-50L/index.html

Both are stereo volume pedals, intended to go in the audio signal path


Neither are recommended nor designed to be used as a VG-99 Expression pedal.

The Larger Boss FV-500 H and L models have dual pots for volume and expression. Exp pots are 10K linear, so it can work as a 10K Expression pedal.


The Roland  EV-5 is the Expression pedal Roland intended us to use with VG-99 / FC-300  extrernal Expression pedal Control Jacks.

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=54

It is 10K control via TRS Phone plug
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33.0;attach=821;image
Tip = Control element - sweeps from 10K to Ground

Ring = fixed 10K reference for control circuit

Ground = Electrical shield to minimize noise

I'm surprised you can get the FV-50L to work as an expression pedal with the FC-300 
The EV-5 schematics are pretty clear on the circuit required. (see below)

The VG-99 / FC-300 Owners Manuals are quite clear - Use the EV-5, which is a different beast than  the FV-50L.( I use a FV-50H on my stompbox Pedal Board)


I have three  EV-5 pedals, and they are each 10K linear.(actually measure 8.9K ohm)

I use them all the time with my Line6 gear and VG-99  - plug and play.

I understand the  Line 6 Expression Pedal is an EV-5 clone and should work fine with the VG-99.

Fullcompass sells them for $43
http://www.fullcompass.com/product/249896.html

[gumbo]

...I have been playing with these same thoughts for a VERY looong while..

AFAIK, all of these "Damper / Sustain" pedals (and there are MANY of them on the market apart from Roland and much cheaper), are a simple Momentary switch...with some of them incorporating a "Polarity" switch (I hate the mis-use of that term!) to select between Normally-open and Normally-closed contacts.

My idea was always to mod something like this so that it would mimic the "Toe-down" & "Toe-up" positions of the expression pedal... I would think that is fairly easy with appropriate resistors in the slightly altered internal circuit...what I am unclear about at this point anyway, is how to fool the GP-10 into thinking that it's an expression pedal that is plugged into it, as I believe it interrogates the connection..

Anyone else have an idea about that, or any other aspects?

Peter

[Markwaaron@icloud.com]

The dp-10 and most of the piano pedals with "half damper" capability actually have pots in them and can send 0-127 signals from what I've read on other sites. You are correct that most sustain pedals are momentary, but the ones we are talking about are not.

[gumbo]

The fp-10 and most of the piano pedals with "half damper" capability actually have pots in them and can send 0-127 signals from what I've read on other sites. You are correct that most sustain pedals are momentary, but the ones we are talking about are not.

Thanks for the clarification...
I'm NOT a keyboard player, so I bow to further knowledge on this..
..I'm STILL very interested to see where this conversation goes, as I can see a place in my live performance area for a working result.

Peter

[sixeight]

The fp-10 and most of the piano pedals with "half damper" capability actually have pots in them and can send 0-127 signals from what I've read on other sites. You are correct that most sustain pedals are momentary, but the ones we are talking about are not.

Just found my post about the damper pedal I have. It actually is a DP-8:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=1268.msg6521#msg6521

The DP-8 has a switch to select between a switch style pedal and a pot style pedal (half damper pedal). When connected to the VG-99 it was great to use as a wah pedal or a virtual whammy bar. The VG99 has a great virtual whammy.

[gumbo]

...ah..
Just looked it up..
..and the page says....     ..."Discontinued".


...sigh

...looks like we're back to building what we need again..   

[Markwaaron@icloud.com]

Maybe not. The DP-10 likely has similar electronics with respect to the pots. I'll keep working on finding a schematic for it, and keep you posted on the results with the RPU-3. The reason why I am trying the RPU-3 is because I'm setting up a multiple GP-10 rig using one of Primova's GKPX14F units. I'm hoping to accomplish a pedal steel emulation whereby each GP-10 processes and pedal bends its own string. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RPU3--roland-rpu-3?mrkgcl=28&mrkgadid=3248788347&rkg_id=0&product_id=RPU3&campaigntype=shopping&campaign=aaShopping%2520-%2520Core%2520-%2520Keyboards%2520%26%2520Synthesizers&adgroup=Keyboards%2520%26%2520Synthesizers%2520-%2520Keyboard%2520Accessories&placement=google&adpos=1o1&creative=217452498629&device=m&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIue_PxYHx2gIVx7jACh2I2AFDEAQYASABEgKu9fD_BwE

[Markwaaron@icloud.com]

Additional point of curiosity regarding the discontinued DP-8. This is an ad for Livid, which makes the guitar wing wireless MIDI controllers and supplies a bunch of DIY MIDI circuit boards, etc. I don't think this would be necessary with a DP-8 (and hopefully a DP-10 or RPU-3) given that it likely already has a 10k potentiometer that is already compatible with the 1/4" expression pedal input on the vguitar devices. But it is certainly interesting and almost makes one think a DIY project is within reach of even a stooge like me who has no electronics skills.

[gumbo]

Interested to hear how you get on with the RPU-3.
I nearly bought one of them to play about with about 5 or 6 years ago, but at the time was told that they were just momentary..

...having now a better understanding of the term "half damper' (thank you Mark!) I see that I was perhaps being misled at the time by a salesperson as ignorant as I was...   

Please post your findings...

Regards,
Peter

[admin]

There is detailed info on these DP-10, DP-8, RPU-3 pedals at Pianoteq Forum
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?pid=944720#p944720

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=1948

http://diy.kvasha.org/diy-sustain-pedal/

I am ordering a FPU-3, which I understand has the same pots as the DP-10 and will report back if it is successful as an expression controller with the GP-10.

Above is a Fatar damper pedal set  ( see the 10K pots on the far left / far right pedals) with a Doepfer MIDI adapter

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2155410/all/How_to_switch_the_polarity_of_
https://www.google.com/search?q=Pianoteq+RPU-3&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj01dmi2fjaAhVnwlQKHQtmBOMQ_AUIDCgD&biw=1330&bih=749&dpr=1.25

[gumbo]

Thanks Steve...interesting stuff!  And obviously lots more research and thinking ahead.

Although I MUST say that I'm most impressed with this ...  love the minimalist approach!

[gumbo]

There is detailed info on these DP-10, DP-8, RPU-3 pedals at Pianoteq Forum
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?pid=944720#p944720

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=1948

http://diy.kvasha.org/diy-sustain-pedal/
Above is a RPU-3 ( see the 10K pots on the far left / far right pedals) with a Doepfer MIDI adapter

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2155410/all/How_to_switch_the_polarity_of_
https://www.google.com/search?q=Pianoteq+RPU-3&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj01dmi2fjaAhVnwlQKHQtmBOMQ_AUIDCgD&biw=1330&bih=749&dpr=1.25

Hi Steve,
I think FWIW, that the image in your post above is that of a FATAR pedal...
See :

http://www.fatar.com/Pages/Console%20Dynamic%20Pedals.htm

...rather than the Roland RPU-3

It would appear that FATAR manufacture a range of 3-pedal units with options as to where and how many pots.


HTH
Peter

[admin]

The mystery unfolds

[Markwaaron@icloud.com]

RPU-3 received, and not much luck so far. I am learning a lot about how to program the unit from the boss editing program. Having a lot of trouble deciphering how the basic b-bender program works and how to translate that into something that is controllable by exp 2. I can't decide whether the unit simply does not work on the exp 2 in socket of the Gp-10 or whether it's my lack of knowledge about how to create a patch that will allow an exp 2 b (or other string) bend. Any insight would be appreciated.

[Elantric]

RPU-3 received, and not much luck so far. I am learning a lot about how to program the unit from the boss editing program. Having a lot of trouble deciphering how the basic b-bender program works and how to translate that into something that is controllable by exp 2. I can't decide whether the unit simply does not work on the exp 2 in socket of the Gp-10 or whether it's my lack of knowledge about how to create a patch that will allow an exp 2 b (or other string) bend. Any insight would be appreciated.

There is a factory GP-10 patch (66) B-BENDER TL


http://lib.roland.co.jp/support/en/manuals/res/63181372/GP-10_Sound_List_je01_W.pdf



Just open an existing GP-10 *.TSl file with BTS for GP- 10- and review the Control Assignment page



other Bend with just a momentary CTL pedal




If i just received a Roland RPU-3 - I would get an ohm meter and verify which pedal(s)  that are electrical equivalent of a Roland  EV-5
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=33.0
http://manoreken2.blogspot.com/2015/06/

[gumbo]

"If i just received a Roland RPU-3 - I would get an ohm meter and verify which pedal(s)  that are electrical equivalent of a Roland  EV-5 ...."


Yep..

I've got a sneaky feeling that it isn't all of them....

Peter

[Markwaaron@icloud.com]

Thank you so much for the explanation. I think that will help enormously. I'll report back what I find.

[admin]

Roland RPU-3
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
Here's a super-convenient 3-pedal piano pedal from Roland. The PRU-3 piano pedal takes three of Roland's high-quality piano pedals and combines them in the a unit that's super convenient and easy to use. What's really cool about the PRU-3 is that it's got three discrete outputs, so you can use the PRU-3 with lots of different digital pianos and keyboards. Even better, when you use the PRU-3 with your Roland FP-7F or RD-700 series piano (or any other Roland keyboards equipped with half-damper capability) you get even more out of your rig. You can even use it to access the FP-7F's looper and harmonizer on the fly.
FEATURES & HIGHLIGHTS
Combines three pedals in one unit
Separate 1/4" outputs for each pedal
Compatible with Roland's FP-7F and RD-700 series pianos
Provides the same pedal configuration as a grand piano
Offers hands-free control of various instrument functions



http://forums.rolandclan.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=53788&start=15

Re: EV-5 expression pedal for FA06
Postby locojohn » 22:35, 6 July 2017

Am I alone here using Roland RPU-3 for everything, including expression control? As noted above, there are settings on the FA that can reverse polarity and make any of its 3 pedals operate as expression control, hold pedal or tweak any other continuous parameter.

Haven't tried foot switch type parameters yet, but overall I am enjoying having all 3 pedals in one sturdy and seemingly reliable piece.


Postby locojohn » 23:20, 6 July 2017

Escaperocks wrote:
How do you precisely control expression amount with what is basically a sustain pedal? I.e., there are times I need to leave expression at 90, them move it to 127, then back to zero.


As mentioned, all three pedals in RPU-3 can operate as continuous controllers, meaning you can assign each to, say, control volume changes or send a "soft pedal" effect. Indeed, what you mentioned isn't possible with a pedal that has a full fixed range. But if you just use expression pedal to lower the volume, then you can do it with RPU-3 as well..

https://www.thomann.de/ie/roland_rpu3.htm

Good weight and very well built. The 3 pedals are continuous, using potentiometers. They are of the normally closed type (low impedance) , and go to progressively to higher impedance when pressed. They are terminated with 3 stereo jack plugs, so should be easy to use with a variety of keyboards.

RPU-3 Owners manual
http://lib.roland.co.jp/support/en/manuals/res/50289497/RPU-3_je02_W.pdf

[gumbo]

Impressive research Steve...thanks for that!

I wish (years back, now!) I had been able to find all that out then..  ..could very well have changed the course greatly on something I was working on..  ah well..   

Peter

[Markwaaron@icloud.com]

I received the RPU-3, but the GP-10 units do not seem to respond to it. I'm going to open it up and take a look inside. Hopefully I can get you all some info on the potentiometers. I will say I have not had a lot of time to experiment, but there seems to be no response when connected straight into the expression pedal in of the GP-10.

[gumbo]

Mark...

Have a read of this thread...this is what I was talking about earlier, in terms of the Boss unit 'interrogating' the hardware plugged into the Expression Pedal jack...


https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=22954.0

Peter

[Markwaaron@icloud.com]

Thanks so much for the information. I called Roland tech support, and they tried a DP-10 into the expression 2 input of a GP-10. The rep said that it worked just like an EV-5 when the switch on the DP-10 was set to continuous. They did not have a RPU-3 readily available for testing. I have decided to return the RPU-3 and order some DP-10 units instead. I'll let you know how it works. I didn't realize the tech support guys would actually test equipment for you. Very cool!

[admin]

I jut got my RPU-3 - will do a teardown / analysis later tonight. THIS WEEKEND!

but suggest re-read this
https://www.pianoteq.com/faq?category=pianoteq

http://manoreken2.blogspot.com/2015/05/building-midi-3pedal-for-pianoteq-5.html
RPU-3 TRS connector.
Ring: put +5V, Sleeve: connect to GND, Tip: pedal potentiometer output.

= Same wiring as Roland EV-5 Expression