Antares Luthier kit with Quicco Sound mi.1 Bluetooth MIDI

Started by cags12, October 12, 2017, 03:37:22 PM

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admin


QuoteIn fact, I just ordered this yesterday:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073FDG88G/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
thinking to cut a USB cable and use 9V to power ATG either via a 5 PIN connector or instead of the AA batteries?
Is this a stupid idea?
If it works better than the 4 AA, it's great, as it's nice and flat and can be easily attached somehow.

The 9VDC output on that battery pack does not occur unless a smartphone with 9V enable specific data handshake enables the 9VDC output


Alternatively it will make a lot of noise when used with a DC-DC converter to achieve 9VDC

https://www.amazon.com/Converter-MICGOGO-Power-Transformer-Cable/dp/B06Y5RSZD5/ref=sr_1_sc_2?s=wireless&ie=UTF8&qid=1508170570&sr=1-2-spell&keywords=5v+to+9v+dc+dc+adapoter






See below - I have good result with this power pack that includes a clean 9VDC output  - velcro to the back of the guitar


http://www.amazon.com/PwrBlast-External-Battery-Hd-Hdx-Tab-portable/dp/B0061TK28O?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s01


or

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00935L44E/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: admsustainiac on October 16, 2017, 08:57:45 AM
For the Antares Luthier kit MIDI Out connection, you are allowed One connection - so its AT-200B or Quiccosound Mi.1 - but not both at same time

Please elaborate - I don't see what the issue is if it's just driving a phototransistor.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

admin

High potential for Midi sysex data errors occur when drive two destinations without an active MIDI THRU box

cags12

Quote from: admsustainiac on October 16, 2017, 09:31:29 AM
High potential for Midi sysex data errors occur when drive two destinations without an active MIDI THRU box
Quote from: GuitarBuilder on October 16, 2017, 09:25:24 AM
Please elaborate - I don't see what the issue is if it's just driving a phototransistor.
So electrically only speaking by providing two separate sources of 5V would not cause major issues? Forget about the errors for a moment.

admin

QuoteSo electrically only speaking by providing two separate sources of 5V would not cause major issues? Forget about the errors for a moment.

Never connect the outputs from multiple independent  / separate DC Voltage sources together
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/23943/what-would-happen-if-i-connect-two-different-dc-voltage-sources-in-parallel

cags12

Quote from: admsustainiac on October 16, 2017, 10:12:01 AM
Never connect two Voltage sources together
In such case, then regardless of errors of transmission this is a NO NO situation unless Guitar builder has something to add?

GuitarBuilder

The original question was whether or not to have AT-200B and Quicco mi.1 connected simultaneously on the guitar.

If the AT-200B were to be connected to the 8-pin jack on the guitar, the ATG would sense power on pin 6 and disconnect the battery.  There is only one source of power in the system, not two.

The next question is whether it matters to have two devices connected to the MIDI out on ATG.  This connection is only used by the computer-based software (preset manager) to read the settings on ATG.  Under normal operating conditions, no commands are sent by ATG over MIDI out.  So no SYSEX confusion.

As I said in a previous post, I don't see any logic in connecting both to the guitar; if AT-200B is used, one might as well connect the iPad directly to it.  No need for bluetooth MIDI in that case.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

admin

QuoteUnder normal operating conditions, no commands are sent by ATG over MIDI out.  So no SYSEX confusion.
The problem occurs when the using the AT200B or passive Antares 8 pin to dual 5 pin MIDI I/O adapter to connect to a Win/Mac running the Antares Preset Manager  / ATG Config settings - this is a bi-directional MIDI SYSex communication

If the Quiccosound mi.1  is left connected, this would present redundant load on the Anteres Luthier kit's MIDI  output connection - (violates the MIDi spec ), which will slow down the rise time of the sent MIDi SYSEX data packets sent from the Antares Luthier kit's MIDI Output   = high  potential for MIDI SYSEX data errors when using Win/Mac running the Antares Preset Manager  / ATG Config settings

cags12

Quote from: GuitarBuilder on October 16, 2017, 11:40:07 AM
The original question was whether or not to have AT-200B and Quicco mi.1 connected simultaneously on the guitar.

If the AT-200B were to be connected to the 8-pin jack on the guitar, the ATG would sense power on pin 6 and disconnect the battery.  There is only one source of power in the system, not two.

The next question is whether it matters to have two devices connected to the MIDI out on ATG.  This connection is only used by the computer-based software (preset manager) to read the settings on ATG.  Under normal operating conditions, no commands are sent by ATG over MIDI out.  So no SYSEX confusion.

As I said in a previous post, I don't see any logic in connecting both to the guitar; if AT-200B is used, one might as well connect the iPad directly to it.  No need for bluetooth MIDI in that case.

I see the confusion. We were not referring to two sources of power for powering ATG. We were referring to two sources of 5V going to the MIDI In+ line. That is, 5V coming from AT-200B and in parallel 5V coming from the Quiccosound. Which ultimately really comes from the MIDI Out +.
Do I make sense?

The optoisolator I take could be damaged.

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: cags12 on October 16, 2017, 11:45:12 AM
I see the confusion. We were not referring to two sources of power for powering ATG. We were referring to two sources of 5V going to the MIDI In+ line. That is, 5V coming from AT-200B and in parallel 5V coming from the Quiccosound. Which ultimately really comes from the MIDI Out +.
Do I make sense?

The optoisolator I take could be damaged.

The AT-200B does not power the MIDI In line directly.  Power is only through pin 6.  There is no 5V coming from the Quiccosound.

Again, using both AT-200B and Quicco is not a good solution anyway.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

cags12

Quote from: GuitarBuilder on October 16, 2017, 11:59:36 AM
The AT-200B does not power the MIDI In line directly.  Power is only through pin 6.  There is no 5V coming from the Quiccosound.

Again, using both AT-200B and Quicco is not a good solution anyway.

It does provide power when connected to a MIDI interface on the other side. The same if you use a Y cable to connect to a MIDI interface directly. Pin 4 (MIDI IN +) of the 8 pin DIN connector will receive 5V.

And there is indeed 5V coming from the QuiccoSound. It comes from ATG on the MIDI OUT +  Powers Quiccosound and then comes back to ATG on MIDI IN +. I know this by inspecting pictures of the internals of the mi.1.

The whole MIDI specification relies on having 5V reference, how else can it work if there was not this.

So if you have the Quiccosound connected and also an external MIDI interface either via the AT-200B or Y cable, you will end up having two sources of 5V in parallel coming into the MIDI IN+ of the ATG.

GuitarBuilder

I think the confusion is that you're using the word "power" for both power supply and signals.  They really are two different things.  There's only a voltage present on MIDI In when a signal is sent.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

cags12

Just to clarify, we area trying to address the issue of not being allowed to use the Software Manager via 8Pin cable while having the QuiccoSound permanently internally installed. Powering ATG is another matter and there are several possible solutions to this.

FWIW. I have a conversation open with the main developer of the CME Widi-Bud. If we get to a positive solution, we will be able to use the Software Manager wirelessly (for Windows) and completely forget about the 8 Pin connection. On Mac's this is not an issue as you can pair directly not using the Widi-Bud.
http://www.cme-pro.com/forum-index/topic/widi-bud-issue-with-long-sysex-messages/#post-28555


cags12

Quote from: GuitarBuilder on October 16, 2017, 12:24:01 PM
I think the confusion is that you're using the word "power" for both power supply and signals.  They really are two different things.  There's only a voltage present on MIDI In when a signal is sent.

Sorry yes, my mistake. I thought I could use the word power because in the end voltage and current is power and that is what powers on the mi.1. But I see what you mean.

admin

Quote from: cags12 on October 16, 2017, 12:24:19 PM
Just to clarify, we area trying to address the issue of not being allowed to use the Software Manager via 8Pin cable while having the QuiccoSound permanently internally installed. Powering ATG is another matter and there are several possible solutions to this.

FWIW. I have a conversation open with the main developer of the CME Widi-Bud. If we get to a positive solution, we will be able to use the Software Manager wirelessly (for Windows) and completely forget about the 8 Pin connection. On Mac's this is not an issue as you can pair directly not using the Widi-Bud.
http://www.cme-pro.com/forum-index/topic/widi-bud-issue-with-long-sysex-messages/#post-28555


CME WIDI Bud is USB Only - I assume this will go to a PC ( macs and ipads already support BLE 4.1 wireless MIDI.

What will go inside the guitar to make this wireless MIDI connection to the WIDI Bud?

The Quccosound mi.1?

FWIW -accurate  / error free long Bi Directional MIDI SYSEX streams is when problems are likely to occur   - even with a wired MIDI connection, let alone wireless MIDI connection.

and for many people the only time they need "error free long Bi Directional MIDI SYSEX streams" is when they connect to the Antares Manager app to make the initial set up the Antares Internal kit parameter settings for a new installation ( bridge type, distance, scale length, string sensitivity, etc) 

I still fault Antares workflow procedure , and consider it poor design to require a secure connection to the Antares server ( which shuts down Oct 30, 2017) for future Antares Luthier kit installations  - smells like Antares wanted to eventually make this aspect of ownership ( i.e. setting the final Luthier kit settings for the installation)  a "pay to play" profit center for Antares

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: cags12 on October 12, 2017, 03:37:22 PM
After some reverse engineering of the ATG DSP board and correlating my findings with the Official MIDI specification update (2014), I identified the reason as to why some users were unable to use the Quicco Sound mi.1 and Yamaha wireless MIDI BLE adapters with their Luthier Kit.

The DSP board DOES provide enough power ~22mA @ 5v on the MIDI OUT. However, the "ground" line (purple wire) depicted in the Installation manual is NOT directly connected to ground but to a capacitor as optionally recommended by the official MIDI specification. This is to improve resistance to RF interference (see image below).



To making the BLE MIDI adapters work, you will need to establish a direct ground connection. Luckily, pin 8 of the MIDI of the connector to the DSP is a true ground connection. You can use this or any other ground point. 



Do this and Voila. No major hack and no hassle.

I installed the mi.1 internally on my guitar and tested functionality with my iPhone and to Windows 10 with CME Widi-Bud. PC and CC messages work great with long range despite being inside the guitar.

On Windows I still cannot use the Settings manager because the built-in Windows MIDI driver truncates long SysEx messages. It should work fine with MAC. I will investigate if there is any patch or settings on Windows to allowing long SysEx messages.

Btw. Regardless of the issue with Windows. The Widi Bud works great and connects automatically to the mi.1 within 2 seconds of either of the two devices being powered on. This is excellent for my planned installation with a USB to MIDI adapter to my MIDI foot controller. is truly plug and play.

Your solution is clever, but do you realize you're violating he MIDI specification by grounding pin 2 on MIDI In?  If you're only using the Quiccosound it may be OK, but you will create a ground loop if you connect a cable to MIDI Out.  Something to keep in mind.

The proper ground is pin 2 on MIDI Out.

I have several ATGs wired with only 5-pin MIDI connectors (no 8-pin) and they all work perfectly using either wired or BT connections without grounding pin 2 on MIDI In.
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

cags12

Quote from: admsustainiac on October 16, 2017, 12:57:24 PM

FWIW -accurate  / error free long Bi Directional MIDI SYSEX streams is when problems are likely to occur   - even with a wired connection, let alone wireless MIDI connection.

and for many people the only time they need "error free long Bi Directional MIDI SYSEX streams" is when they connect to the Antares Manager app to make the initial set up the Antares Internal kit parameter settings for a new installation ( bridge type, distance, scale length, string sensitivity, etc) 
True, but from my testing with MIDI-OX only 340 Bytes Max need to be transferred between the Software Manager and the Guitar, it is not very very long and not prone to errors. As I describe in the post in the CME Forum, I am able to receive the complete SysEx message "error free" when using iOS and Android. The problem with Widi-Bud is the size of the internal buffer, something they are looking at now.

QuoteI still fault Antares workflow procedure , and consider it poor design to require a secure connection to the Antares server ( which shuts down Oct 30, 2017) for future Antares Luthier kit installations  - smells like Antares wanted to eventually make this aspect of ownership ( i.e. setting the final Luthier kit settings for the installation)  a "pay to play" profit center for Antares

Secure? you are kidding me right. The connection to Antares's server is fully un-encrypted. Anyway, you only need this if upgrading the software if there was any further update. For the Settings Manager you do not need this so no problem there.

cags12

Quote from: GuitarBuilder on October 16, 2017, 01:07:46 PM
Your solution is clever, but do you realize you're violating he MIDI specification by grounding pin 2 on MIDI In?  If you're only using the Quiccosound it may be OK, but you will create a ground loop if you connect a cable to MIDI Out.  Something to keep in mind.

The proper ground is pin 2 on MIDI Out.

I have several ATGs wired with only 5-pin MIDI connectors (no 8-pin) and they all work perfectly using either wired or BT connections without grounding pin 2 on MIDI In.

Not quite Peter. This solution does not violate the MIDI specification.

The pin 2 on MIDI IN is NOT grounded. It connects to an internal capacitor on the DSP board not creating any ground loop. This is contemplated in the MIDI specification update. It was introduced to improve RF interference. see diagram below. That picture I took it form the 2014 MIDI spec available from MIDI.org.



It will work without connecting this cable, but your connection will be more prone to interference. It is an optional feature though.

Suggest reading the latest MIDI spec, they explain all of this.

admin

QuoteSecure? you are kidding me right. The connection to Antares's server is fully un-encrypted.

Regardless,  Antares ATG Server will shut down completely on midnight Oct 31, 2017

i was told to get my ATG Luthier kits setup in the ballpark of where I want them in regards to the unlocked Luthier password accessible ATG settings for a new installation ( bridge type, distance, scale length, string sensitivity, etc)   within the next 17 days

cags12

Quote from: admsustainiac on October 16, 2017, 01:58:42 PM
i was told to get my ATG Luthier kits setup in the ballpark of where I want them in regards to the unlocked Luthier password accessible ATG settings for a new installation ( bridge type, distance, scale length, string sensitivity, etc)   within the next 17 days
Who told you this? The ATG Settings Manager work even without Internet connections so this is not accurate.

whippinpost91850

Is there an update for the original ATG internal kit.. If there is I'm going to have to rig up outside the guitar my kit before it is installed and update it before the 28th

whippinpost91850

I'm hearing conflicting reports on needing to set up my settings with the ATG server.. This blows I can't believe they are just shutting everything down cold, with I feel a fairly short notice

I updated my ATG-1 yesterday.

admin

Quote from: cags12 on October 16, 2017, 02:19:26 PM
Who told you this? The ATG Settings Manager work even without Internet connections so this is not accurate.

I hope this is true - we will both know on Novemeber 1st

I heard that after Oct 31, 2017 - it will be impossible to "log in" and make the necessary Advanced Luthier settings.

( it seems only 5% of Antares Luthier kit owners even  know these advanced settings exist)

These advanced Luthier kit install settings are not revealed until after a successful "log in" with an active Antares Luthier account  - which will be refused entry after Oct, 31, 2017

and if you still have not created an Antares Luthier Account - you are SOL.

as explained here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13462.0;attach=10917




whippinpost91850


admin

QuoteI updated my ATG-1 yesterday.

just to add - the ATG-1 is far more "future proof" - because all settings for  bridge type, distance, scale length, string sensitivity, etc, - are all accessible by anyone in the ATG-1 System / Global  settings  - no need for the Antares Manager app running on  Win/Mac with a password  to access and set these important settings on ATG-1