Attack Transients and Guitar Synths

Started by Rhcole, January 27, 2016, 01:44:24 PM

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Rhcole

I have used, played, loved, and cursed at guitar synths for many years now. Over the years I developed my own bag of tricks to minimize their shortcomings. Even the Fishman Triple Play, the current best-of for MIDI guitar, can easily mistrack or gargle on sloppy notes or if the selected voice is too challenging. Pianistic or percussive voices are some of the worst choices for guitar synths because their hard front-end attacks (the attack transients) can easily mis-trigger or glitch.

I thought I would write a brief note on a current solution I'm having fun with to this issue. I am using the EHX KEY-9 for pianistic and organ attack transients and the SY-300 for others. I used to use the EHX HOG for a similar purpose. What I do is use these boxes to create the percussive front-end transient sound and then I delay the attack envelope on the synth. To the ear, it sounds as though the synth created the sound but it tracks more cleanly. So the tine sound of the KEY9 substitutes for the tine in the synth voice and it sounds great while tracking more cleanly.

I wish there was a box that created a "chiff" front end sound for a blown sound. I love the woodwindy sound produced by the VG-8 but it needs a 13 pin and a ton of floor real estate.

Anybody else know of cool boxes for this kind of stuff?

Now_And_Then

Quote from: Rhcole on January 27, 2016, 01:44:24 PM
Even the Fishman Triple Play, the current best-of for MIDI guitar, can easily mistrack or gargle on sloppy notes or if the selected voice is too challenging. Pianistic or percussive voices are some of the worst choices for guitar synths because their hard front-end attacks (the attack transients) can easily mis-trigger or glitch.

I don't understand this. Why would the voices that are being triggered cause glitching, and not the way the guitar is being played, or the way it is set up?

Unless you are saying that poor tracking, for whatever reason, can be most problematical on the initial attack of the original guitar note and that this in turn causes very noticeable glitches in the initial attack of the triggered samples. (Still not really easy for me to understand, though. Is the attack a separate sample from the rest of the sound?)

Rhcole

Yes, you are right poor playing can greatly exaggerate the inherent limitations of guitar synths. But, guitar synths have always worked better with slow attack sounds such as strings instead of very tight pianistic sounds, such as pianos, mallets, vibes, etc. This also happens with many acoustic guitar patches. The synths tend to glitch or mistrigger on the front end of these types of patches, resulting in artifacts, ghost notes, and other phenomena. On older products such as the GR-30 and prior, percussive patches required a master's touch on the guitar or they were otherwise virtually unusable. The Axon was the first product I ever tried that got me in the ballpark of being able to use these kinds of patches.

The FTP is a huge improvement, but it will still stumble on percussive patches if they aren't executed by the player well. Not being an impeccable player myself, I let the KEY9 do some of the attack transient work, which because it is not interpreting pitch events, is no problem at all.

I've used this trick for years, but I like newer products such as the KEY9 for this because that is exactly in its wheelhouse.

Of course, none of this matters at all with COSM products such as the VG-99.

szilard

Quote from: Rhcole on January 27, 2016, 06:06:07 PM
But, guitar synths have always worked better with slow attack sounds such as strings instead of very tight pianistic sounds, such as pianos, mallets, vibes, etc.

Absolutely. On my HW synths, on the patches I use (used), if there was a hard attack they have all been backed off slightly. Back in the day looking at the midi most of the glitching was very short, low velocity, notes. Backing off the attack slightly cleaned that up. I think in my case a fair amount of that may have been minor "hammer on" and "pull off" when fretting so I've cleaned some of that up and the nuance control on the GR-55 has helped as well.

   

Now_And_Then

 Well I can see a possible reason for the effect.

With Roland technology specifically, as soon as the first cycle of the waveform begins, the device attempts to predict what the note will be. The initial prediction is rarely correct. As the incoming waveform continues, the prediction is continually revised as more of the waveform is analyzed. ( I've looked at the midi output of the GR-33 in a score editor and could actually see the corrections being made as it zeroes in on the right note. As I'd wanted to edit it, it was painful to look at. )

When a fast-attack patch is being triggered, it starts sounding while the Roland technology is still searching for the right note. So its initial guess and subsequent corrections are audible. ( The Axon should not glitch this way. Dunno about the FTP. )

A slow attack patch also starts while the Roland technology is still guessing and correcting. But apparently the interval provided by the patch's initial silence and fade-in allows the Roland tech enough time to make its initial wrong guess and then find the correct pitch; by the time the patch can actually be heard, the Roland tech has had enough time to find the correct note. The corrections occur during the inaudible beginning part of the patch's envelope and are themselves inaudible.

  So even with slow-attack patches, the Roland technology is still glitching, but but the glitches are hidden by the patch's volume envelope.

That would kind of explain the observed phenomenon.


whippinpost91850


stratrat

I've always layered the guitar sound with the synth sounds. While not as realistic, it at least doesn't kill the groove.

On the more percussive sounds that tend to multiple trigger, slowing down the attack usually helps and the guitar fills in.

Smash

To OP - fascinated by this approach. Do you have any audio to demonstrate - would be really interested to hear a/b comparison.

Tony Raven

Fascinating topic! Sorry, nothing bright to add, but it's creating some interesting thoughts & I might have to fire the rig up.

But I think I'm naming my next band incarnation "The Attack Transients." ;D

lightwins

What a relief to find this thread. After many positive reviews and amazing demos I thought I am the only one who has so many false triggered notes. After 30 years of playing guitar still not good enough for that thingy...  I recall some writing from sonuus (re. G2M) that ability to suppress fake notes and provide good dynamic range is crucial, pitch to midi devices I played before were much slower than FTP but much more robust with false triggers.

krysh

great thread. thanks for your input.
my 2 ct's, yours,

krysh

sy-300 newbie and bass- and guitarplayer from hamburg, germany

Brak(E)man

#11
Quote from: Rhcole on January 27, 2016, 01:44:24 PM


I wish there was a box that created a "chiff" front end sound for a blown sound. I love the woodwindy sound produced by the VG-8 but it needs a 13 pin and a ton of floor real estate.

Anybody else know of cool boxes for this kind of stuff?

The SY creates a good chiff whistle sort of sound and whatever other flaws I find that that sound is great and so far the closest to VG 8 and the same sort of sound that d550 has

I'm going the other way , digging into to ol GR 700 at the moment

Great thread about a very problematic subject,
Thing is that when I started with guitar synths
Around 87 , I still remember recording solos without glitches
And that was through either a Roland interface or a Casio guitar ( can't remember )
via midi to a rack synth I believe the d550 whistling pipes or something like that
on a Atari for midi and a technics cassette recorder

Just went and got a GR55, and it has glitch issues
Has nothing happened in all those years !
Is it  only getting worse ?
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

admin

QuoteJust went and got a GR55, and it has glitch issues
Has nothing happened in all those years !
Is it  only getting worse ?

Apply the solutions described in the user created docs here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;cat=18

Brak(E)man

Quote from: admsustainiac on June 01, 2016, 07:33:57 AM
Apply the solutions described in the user created docs here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;cat=18

I have thank you,
But the glitches
are there , that's why
I stopped using guitar synths
Until VG came out
with the glitch free
No or almost none latency
Until this last year
When I bought
SY 300
GR 700
And now GR 55
the latency is worse on 700
But the glitches about the same
SY 300 best on both accounts but
the sounds are dirtyish
and the chord recognition so so

Sorry for going OT

swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Elantric

#14
QuoteI have thank you,
But the glitches
are there , that's why
I stopped using guitar synths
Until VG came out
with the glitch free
No or almost none latency
Until this last year
When I bought
SY 300
GR 700
And now GR 55
the latency is worse on 700
But the glitches about the same
SY 300 best on both accounts but
the sounds are dirtyish
and the chord recognition so so

Sorry for going OT

I agree, Guitar to MIDI systems (even FTP) still have a long way to go before they can match the low latency, expressiveness, and glitch free performance of the Roland/Boss COSM VGuitar DSP Modeling systems (VG-8, VG-88, VG-99, GP-10).

Brak(E)man

Quote from: Elantric on June 01, 2016, 05:06:40 PM
I agree, Guitar to MIDI systems (even FTP) still have a long way to go before they matches the low latency, expressiveness, and glitch free performance of the Roland/Boss COSM VGuitar DSP Modeling systems (VG-8, VG-88, VG-99, GP-10)

I'd wish they'd go that way , more Cosm emulated synth sounds, still feel that 5-10 sounds on the 8 are unsurpassed. Maybe the Cosm synth algorithms doesnt sound like trad synths, however they have exactly what you describe. I was hoping for the SY 300 , I might be convinced yet , but I lack the enthusiasm I've had programming the units above mentioned. I was skeptical towards GP 10 and still thinks it has som big flaws but that too is an great unit for that price range.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Now_And_Then

Quote from: Brak(E)man on June 01, 2016, 04:03:59 PM
I have thank you,
But the glitches
are there , that's why
I stopped using guitar synths
Until VG came out
with the glitch free
No or almost none latency
Until this last year
When I bought
SY 300
GR 700
And now GR 55
the latency is worse on 700
But the glitches about the same
SY 300 best on both accounts but
the sounds are dirtyish
and the chord recognition so so

Sorry for going OT


What a curious coincidence! Earlier today I found an opportunity to quote Shakespeare, and here we have one of our long-time forum members showing a previously unsuspected talent for composing free-from poetry.

Needs some work but, overall, not bad!

Brak(E)man

I actually do write free form poetry
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Now_And_Then

Quote from: Now_And_Then on June 01, 2016, 11:37:42 PM

What a curious coincidence! Earlier today I found an opportunity to quote Shakespeare, and here we have one of our long-time forum members showing a previously unsuspected talent for composing free-from poetry.

Needs some work but, overall, not bad!
Quote from: Brak(E)man on June 02, 2016, 12:45:27 AM
I actually do write free form poetry


@Now_And_Then:+1 Insightful!

chrish

#19
Quote from: Brak(E)man on June 01, 2016, 10:39:47 PM
I'd wish they'd go that way , more Cosm emulated synth sounds, still feel that 5-10 sounds on the 8 are unsurpassed.                     
i agree. The vio guitar 'synth' on the vg-8, to my ear, has a vocal quality to it and would make a good attack transient for any sample based synth vocal pad. Of course it's not likey people would be playing those types of sounds at fast note speeds where guitar pitch to midi glitches are more likely to occur. I enjoy using the vg8's pitch harmonizer with the vio guitar patch. I was also thinking that the exh mel9 vocal patch would blend well with sample synth vocal pads but i haven't had the chance to demo that unit.

Elantric

If you want new sounds, feed VG-8 output into SY-300 input

Brak(E)man

Quote from: chrish on June 02, 2016, 08:18:14 AM
i agree. The vio guitar 'synth' on the vg-8, to my ear, has a vocal quality to it and would make a good attack transient for any sample based synth vocal pad. Of course it's not likey people would be playing those types of sounds at fast note speeds where guitar pitch to midi glitches are more likely to occur. I enjoy using the vg8's pitch harmonizer with the vio guitar patch. I was also thinking that the exh mel9 vocal patch would blend well with sample synth vocal pads but i haven't had the chance to demo that unit.

The vioguitar on the 8 is one one the algorithms
I've used the most for high speed picking
Quote from: Elantric on June 02, 2016, 08:22:52 AM
If you want new sounds, feed VG-8 output into SY-300 input

Don't you agree though that's it's sad and maybe bad that they don't move forward with
these types of cosm synth algorithms mentioned before ?
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Elantric

#22
QuoteDon't you agree though that's it's sad and maybe bad that they don't move forward with
these types of cosm synth algorithms mentioned before ?
I do agree!
But Ive learned we cant change Roland's agenda, (they exhibit "deaf ear / not invented here" syndrome regarding outside suggestions from users.)
I'll probably be dead before they deliver a new Gk 13 pin hex COSM Guitar Synth
Developing workarounds has always been a byproduct of the Roland / Boss Ownership Experience, and a strong focus for why VGuitarForums exists

Now_And_Then

Quote from: Brak(E)man on June 01, 2016, 02:50:37 AM

I'm going the other way , digging into to ol GR 700 at the moment

Great thread about a very problematic subject,
Thing is that when I started with guitar synths
Around 87 , I still remember recording solos without glitches
And that was through either a Roland interface or a Casio guitar ( can't remember )
via midi to a rack synth I believe the d550 whistling pipes or something like that
on a Atari for midi and a technics cassette recorder

Just went and got a GR55, and it has glitch issues
Has nothing happened in all those years !
Is it  only getting worse ?

"This is the meter Columbian..."

Elantric

#24
Quote"This is the meter Columbian..."

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/8876/Longfellow-or-Lonnrot-The-Answer

QuoteThis is the meter Columbian, the soft flowing trochees and dactyls
Blended with fragments spondaic and here and there an iambus
Syllables always sixteen, or more or less, as it happens
Difficult always to scan and depending greatly on accent
Having the grandeur and flow of America's mountains and rivers
Such as no bard could achieve in a mean little island like England


Quotehere we have one of our long-time forum members showing a previously unsuspected talent for composing free-from poetry.

that - or perhaps its a text box forced word wrap issue with his browser.