Re: VG-99 - How to make your Guitar / Mix/ GK switch work on your guitar

Started by Elantric, March 06, 2008, 01:42:52 PM

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Elantric

Roland Knowledge Base

http://www.rolandus.com/support/knowledge_base/201956069

VG-99: NORMAL PICKUP LEVEL

If you want to hear your guitar's original pickups in the VG-99, you need to increase the Normal PU level within each patch. Use the following steps to adjust the normal pickup level for a patch;

1. Select a patch to edit.

2. Press the "A" button.

3. Press PAGE right until you see "MIX LEVEL." (Depending on the setup of the patch, this is on page 6 or 7).

4. Turn the F2 knob to increase the NORMAL PU level.

5. Press WRITE twice if you want to save the new setting to the patch.

6. Repeat the steps for any other patches that you want to have the original pickup volume heard in.

Just know that the Roland GK interface design is flawed.

The GK-3 Three way switch and Roland US-20 A/B/Y Selector  / routers ALL rely on the GK-3 "GK-VOL" pot to be assigned to Patch Volume

If you deviate and get creative, and re-assign GK-VOL to control something other than PATCH VOLUME - that's when bugs manifest.

I always put on suitable background music to sing along when creating Control Assignments  - like

The Clash "Know Your Rights"

but I change the lyrics to suit the operation I'm doing:

"You have the Right to Re-assign the GK-VOL pot,  - as long as you're not Dumb enough to actually try it."


The GK-3  3 way switch (on your guitar) does the following:

UP =   "Guitar" position  =  VG99  B Chain;typical Normal guitar from the Normal PUs,

DOWN =  "GK" (synth) Position is the VG99 A Chain, typical HEX COSM guitar from the GK hex PU,

Middle  =  both A & B Chains combined.


On either the A or B Chain you may use the COSM guitar model, the Guitar pickup/s audio, or a mix of both.  It depends on how loud you set the volumes of "COSM" or "Normal PU".  To get to this setting page, you hit "Modeling Type" A or B on the VG99, then arrow right 5 pages. 

Usually a COSM guitar setting of 50 is near the 100 setting of a typical Fender Strat's pickups. 

If you want the old traditional VG-8 , VG-88 type functionality from your GK-3's 3-way switch of selecting normal Guitar PU's, Mix, or Hex COSM PU, ITS BEST TO DO THE FOLLOWING:

Set the VG-99  Chain A with the COSM guitar volume at 50 and Normal Guitar PU at 0, and Chain B with the COSM guitar at 0 and the Normal PU at 100. 
This way, you can switch between the normal guitar and one COSM guitar model with the 3 way switch - and the labeling on the GK-3's  3-way switch is correct. 




Also you do have to have the Mixer button turned on for a path you want to hear ... This has bit me a couple of times. 



Its convenient to set up Chain A as a Hex COSM guitar and Chain B as my regular guitar's PU, so there is no overlap confusion.  The regular guitar is only hot when you switch to "Guitar"(UP) on the GK-3  anyway, thus if the B path is regular Gtr. only it's muted when you have the GK-3's 3-way switch set to "GK" (DOWN).  So I can switch from 12 string to my Strat comfortably that way. I get both Strat and 12 string COSM sound when Mix is the in the Middle.

Obviously some patches, which are very layered or use alternative tunings that doesn't work for.


GK-2 Volume pot
This is assignable of course on the System - GK - GKFUNC page, to control the A chain volume (foot volume A), B chain volume (foot volume B), or both (foot volume A&B).  You can also assign it as a balance knob between A & B. 


I'm tending towards assigning it as the A Chain volume, since my guitar volume or my pedal board's volume pedal can turn my normal guitar (on the B chain) down.
[  Note to self, when changing the assigns for the GK2's volume pot, turn the pot all the way up before changing assignments, or you leave the previous (volume) level where it is (which may well be off.)  ]


VG-99 FAQ: TOP THINGS TO KNOW
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13.0


Next time you are debugging "why can't I hear my Normal PU's in my VG-99 / GR-55 / Gp-10 using one 13 pin cable   - be sure nothing is connected to the 1/4" outputs jacks

Just wanted to point out that Godin LGXSA and xtSA 1/4" Output jacks feature the similar circuit as the Fender Roland Ready / GC-1 Strat below.

the Fender Roland Ready Strat / Roland GC-1 Strat's 1/4" output jack is a unique switching jack - The goal is to have a "stock Strat" when using the 1/4" output jack  - so anytime you insert a 1/4" plug into the GC-1's 1/4" "Normal PU Output"  jack  - this isolates removes the normal passive Strat Electronics signal output from entering into the GK Internal active buffer (which might load down the passive PU's and reduce high frequencies) and removes the ability to send normal mag PU tone down Pin #7 of the 13 pin Cable



Virtual Tone

I know the patches can be PU only or a blend of both or... just the VG.  That's not the issue here. And YES!!! The FC-300 can switch them back and forth as desired.

My problem (as everyone should know by now) has been that toggle swith and why the hell not can you just "switch" it to the the up (or bottom) whatever position and get the "guitar PU only".

I'm not stupid... I KNOW how to read the freak'n manual... but something in this dang gone thing doesn't add up.

Now... if the toggle isn't SUPPOSED to be...  1.  Up is PU  2. Is both and 3. Is VG only, well then FINE.. I can live with it.

But NO ONE so far has said "Oh... all you have to do is "XYZ"

And you know why?  Cause nobody knows for sure just how the heck to make it happen!

Read the manual?   Sure... did that... done it... got the T shirt as well!"

Now... is there more to learn?  Of course!  And Manana I will keep learning!  ;D

Peace to all,

V.T. 8)




Elantric

To sum up prior posts:

The GK-3  3 way switch (on your guitar) does the following:

UP =   "Guitar" position  =  VG99  B Chain;typical Normal guitar from the Normal PUs,

DOWN =  "GK" (synth) Position is the VG99 A Chain, typical HEX COSM guitar from the GK hex PU,

Middle  =  both A & B Chains combined.


On either the A or B Chain you may use the COSM guitar model, the Guitar pickup/s audio, or a mix of both.  It depends on how loud you set the volumes of "COSM" or "Normal PU".  To get to this setting page, you hit "Modeling Type" A or B on the VG99, then arrow right 5 pages.

Usually a COSM guitar setting of 50 is near the 100 setting of a typical Fender Strat's pickups.

If you want the old traditional VG-8 , VG-88 type functionality from your GK-3's 3-way switch of selecting normal Guitar PU's, Mix, or Hex COSM PU, ITS BEST TO DO THE FOLLOWING:

Set the VG-99  Chain A with the COSM guitar volume at 50 and Normal Guitar PU at 0, and Chain B with the COSM guitar at 0 and the Normal PU at 100.
This way, you can switch between the normal guitar and one COSM guitar model with the 3 way switch - and the labeling on the GK-3's  3-way switch is correct.




Also you do have to have the Mixer button turned on for a path you want to hear ... This has bit me a couple of times.



Its convenient to set up Chain A as a Hex COSM guitar and Chain B as my regular guitar's PU, so there is no overlap confusion.  The regular guitar is only hot when you switch to "Guitar"(UP) on the GK-3  anyway, thus if the B path is regular Gtr. only it's muted when you have the GK-3's 3-way switch set to "GK" (DOWN).  So I can switch from 12 string to my Strat comfortably that way. I get both Strat and 12 string COSM sound when Mix is the in the Middle.

Obviously some patches, which are very layered or use alternative tunings that doesn't work for.


GK-2 Volume pot
This is assignable of course on the System - GK - GKFUNC page, to control the A chain volume (foot volume A), B chain volume (foot volume B), or both (foot volume A&B).  You can also assign it as a balance knob between A & B.

I'm tending towards assigning it as the A Chain volume, since my guitar volume or my pedal board's volume pedal can turn my normal guitar (on the B chain) down.
[  Note to self, when changing the assigns for the GK2's volume pot, turn the pot all the way up before changing assignments, or you leave the previous (volume) level where it is (which may well be off.)  ]


Also observe the following:
1) If you try to write to the location of a factory patch, you will not be able to change the settings. You would need to save the patch as a User patch in order to save the settings.

2) It is possible that you have activated one of the global settings that always make a controller cuase a parameter to function a certian way. Below is a edit of instructions I received from VanceG on this issue

For a FEW features (VERY FEW) there is a way to force a specific physical controller to ALWAYS control a specific parameter on EVERY preset, no matter what (no programming of each preset required).

In the editor software, go into the Sytstem/MIDI/USB/VLINK section, then click on the CTL button over on the right. This brings you to the System Control Assign page. Here you can set assignments for the FC-300 pedals and switches which will override those which are made in each patch.

There are only a limited number of controller destinations that you can do this with, and they are pretty generic, such as "patch level, Wah, Guitar Tone, Volume" etc.  But this still might help in some cases. For example, I use this to universally define what switch is doing my Tap Tempo and Volume. (end of quote from VanceG)

One of these options may be causing the guitar normal pickups to reset to zero.


Virtual Tone

Thanks Elantric for your detailed Summary! 

Once again, your support (and others) has been outstanding as always.  One of the best forums ever for sure.  ;D

I'll walk through it again today... following your summary.  Hopefully I can get it working.

Peace,
V.T.  8)

mos6507

I know it requires a change of habits, but I think with the VG-99 you are better off leaving the 3-position switch in "mix" and doing all your changes via control assigns, or just setting up multiple patches.  It's far more flexible that way, since you have two channels to manage, hence 4 signals (2 cosm, 2 normal guitar).  Also, the 3-position switch sends a slight popping noise in the signal path.  Changing the mix via the pedalboard is going to be cleaner.

Michael Dolan Doubleneck
Les Paul Custom

VG-99
FTP

Elantric

There many way to skin the cat

The VG-99 Flexibility takes the cake

I still wish it had an assignable stereo FX Loop ;)

chipstar

Message! I want that loop so damn bad. I want to add that germanium sound in the mix but I can't.

later,
Chipstar

Billy Kaffadrin

    An FX Loop would be nice, I'm thinking with an external A/D and D/A converter you *might* be able to do a stereo loop, using the digital ins and outs.  Not sure though exactly, maybe when I get some time I'll see what is possible given the fixed internal mixer.

    A feature I want; a bigger workpage in the VG99 editor for the G300 synth model, with editable objects (knobs, etc.) And I kinda miss having the the old "touch vibrato" sensors on the GK pickups, like my old 24 pin GR202 had - that was a sweet little guitar.  I just picked up a beat GR505 body, beat but it cleans up nicely Vinatge.  The neck was a useless Jackson or Robin though, now I do need to find a replacement neck more like the original.  If any of you know of an orphaned Roland Guitar neck, kindly let me know?  Guess I'll have to remove the 24 pin electronics and replace with 13 pin stuff, but I'm guessing the pickups ok. 

     Might someone in the NYC metro area could let me plug it into their G300 or G100 to test out it's 24 pin system?

Billy

Elantric

>you *might* be able to do a stereo loop, using the digital ins and outs.

Well - VG-99 only has a Digital out - no digital In.

Other FX loop alternatives are:

The USB path can be employed to use VST effects

BTW - if you need more effects use a laptop and VST Host
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=485.0

VG99- Editor lets you relocate the USB Audio as a "VST FX loop" to use third party VST plugin FX with the VG-99.

Use the Line-6 Gold VST Bundle
or Free ones (just google)
http://free-plugin-list.com/

Also a Mono FX Loop from the normal mag PU feed will soon be available, using
The Guitar In and Guitar Out rear jacks can be employed as an external  loop for guitar stomp boxes with a small internal modification - I should have that tackled with plans later in the week.





hollowbody

Quote from:  sustainiac on March 06, 2008, 08:19:46 PM
To sum up prior posts:

The GK-3  3 way switch (on your guitar) does the following:

UP =   "Guitar" position  =  VG99  B Chain;typical Normal guitar from the Normal PUs,

DOWN =  "GK" (synth) Position is the VG99 A Chain, typical HEX COSM guitar from the GK hex PU,

Middle  =  both A & B Chains combined.


On either the A or B Chain you may use the COSM guitar model, the Guitar pickup/s audio, or a mix of both.  It depends on how loud you set the volumes of "COSM" or "Normal PU".  To get to this setting page, you hit "Modeling Type" A or B on the VG99, then arrow right 5 pages.





Hi, I'd like to reactivate this thread, because I think that the above quotes are not right.
I think this weird behaviour (that the "guitar position" should only work on the B Chain) is simply a bug in the software!
If you take a preset patch and work from there or if you initialize a patch, then you are struck by this bug.

BUT: do the following: Use Patch 201 (the first factory preset patch) to start building a new patch and you'll see how things were meant to be!
Press MODELING TYPE A and go to page 7. Set the mix levels of both Cosm Guitar and Normal PU to 100 (F1 and F2).
Now you got it!
Play the guitar and switch on the GK-3 to GUITAR. Only the pickups of your guitars are sounding.
Switch to GK and only the GK-3 hex pickup is used. Switch to MIX and both are mixed.

And have a look at this: Press MODELING TYPE A and go to page 2. The Volume of the COSM Guitar is set to 100 (F1). Now switch your GK-3 toggle to GUITAR and on the display you see that the Volume of the COSM Guitar is set to 0.

You can save this patch to any user number (1-200). And you can add a second guitar on Chain B and it still works!

(At least it does here!)

I hope this helps (and doesn't sound too complicated...)

beatpete

Also, as stated in page 15 of the VG-99 manual (bottom left), if you assign the GK volume control to anything except Cosm volume, you lose funtionality of the GK switch. Unfortunately, this was the case with the VG-88 as well and I think it's a limitation of the GK pickup.

s0c9

Quote from:  beatpete on April 23, 2008, 02:18:22 PM
Also, as stated in page 15 of the VG-99 manual (bottom left), if you assign the GK volume control to anything except Cosm volume, you lose funtionality of the GK switch. Unfortunately, this was the case with the VG-88 as well and I think it's a limitation of the GK pickup.

FYI
I double-checked this and it is correct. Functioning as designed.

This is not a problem for my own patches -- I like using the GK volume as volume -- but all of the "Flash" patches set the GK vol to tone control. Nothing wrong with that. Very useful.... EXCEPT... that you get hit with this issue and cannot combine standard PU's with any of Brent's patches without mod'ding the GK Vol controller - which kinda defeats the purpose.

PS: not suggesting Brent change anything, merely providing info that users of his great patches be aware of. :)

-Steve

malhomme

Interestingly, all my guitar with internal GK (2 so far) displays also the same behaviour:
Whatever the position of the selector, normal guitar signal is ALWAYS engaged...

"wart GK" don't.

guitarmandp

On some of these patches I've downloaded, my toggle switch on my VG-99 doesn't change pickups. What setting do I need to choose in the patch to allow this?

Brent Flash

Quote from:  guitarmandp on April 18, 2009, 11:30:01 AM
On some of these patches I've downloaded, my toggle switch on my VG-99 doesn't change pickups. What setting do I need to choose in the patch to allow this?
What you got, GK or other?

Elantric

On the VG-99, the GK-3's  S1 and S2 switches can be assigned to increment / decrement the virtual  COSM modeling  pickup position up or down - one click at a time.

Read


VG-99 F.A.Q.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13.0


jim

When the GK-3 slide is set to the normal guitar PU the VG-99 automatically turns the COSM guitar's volume to -0- so it appears to work correctly EXCEPT when the GK-3 knob is programmed for anything but volume (say tone). Then when the slide is on the guitar PU (only) the COSM tone is dumped to -0- but the COSM volumes (A & B sides) remain where they were when the slide was moved. This happens when the dial is programmed for anything but volume. This allows the COSM guitars to continue even thought the slide is on your guitar PU only. ....FRUSTRATING

Roland (Japan) has been sent this issue to repair. It's a simple fix, but let's see how long they take.

I personally use the pedal for volume and the GK-3 knob/dial for tone.

embers

I have a modified Strat with an internal GK Kit (GK-3 type). I can get normal pickup sound through my GR-20 via the 13 pin cable, but can't get any sound from my normal pickups via the 13 pin cable plugged into the VG-99. Does anyone have any suggestions. I have read through everything and just can't get a sound out of it. I can get sound if I plug into the 1/4 inch jack on the back but it's a pain having two cables out of the guitar.

Elantric

Unplug the 1/4 Guitar Out cable on the back
Enable Normal pickup using the Chain mix function
Read more here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php/topic,226.msg719.html#msg719


ImobiusI

 Good Grief, I just sent my unit in for repair after I realized I was not getting any sound at all from either my GK-3 or GK2a in Guitar Position with any of my 3 cables. I read the manuel went through all the settings for two weeks. I figured that it must have been a faulty connection for the 13 pin cable. I didn't see any mention of this behaviour anywhere until I found these postings and having been use to the GK pickups from my older units, I may have jumped the gun, but to be honest I'm not sure. I had the GK rotary switch set to volume (the logical choice for mixing in general... am I wrong?!) and the the 2 switches set to just change patches. I set it as they said to set it and every other way to boot and,,, nothing. One would think that you should hear your PU's unmixed from this position to be processed from other pedalboards without having to have 2 wires coming out of you guitar. I really didn't want to send this unit back as I just loved it. I called the store and it left yesterday :'( but I was afraid that this might be the start of an even greater system fault. Now it's gone, what can I do... I have so many Roland Products and this has been so atypically bogus... 

erikbojerik

Sorry to dig up an old thread - but I have been having these same issues (no Normal PU signal with 3-way switch at "Guitar"), and have noticed something that was not discussed in the rest of the thread.

When you move the 3-position switch to Guitar, a MIDI CC message is sent out (CC#7 0).  And the opposite when you switch from Guitar to Mix (CC#7 127).  If you switch back & forth between Mix and Synth, no MIDI CC messages - only when you switch between Guitar and Mix.

I have a GK-2a but suspect that the other Roland Hex pickups operate in the same way.  It seems these CC messages are being used by the VG-99 to set the E. Guitar COSM Vol (A & B) to zero (Guitar position) or to 100 (Mix position).  Works the same way with Acoustic Guitar COSM Level.

In my case I am sending the Normal PU signal to Apple's Mainstage using the VG-99 as the audio interface via USB - keeping in mind that the USB connection is a pipe for both audio and MIDI between my Mac and the VG-99.  The CC messages sent out by the 3-way switch were received by Mainstage, and being used to turn on/off the main audio input (!!), so that when I switched to "Guitar" the Mainstage inputs were essentially muted at the same time the COSM A&B were being muted, i.e. exactly when I was demanding Normal PU signal, the Mainstage input was muted!!!  Took me half the day to figure that one out.

What I want to do is send the Hex output to the VG-99 and send the Normal PU output to Mainstage and control their relative volumes with the knobs on the GK and the guitar.  I can do this only by getting Mainstage to ignore the CC message sent out by the GK's 3-position switch.

I also had to get Mainstage's overall Concert Volume to ignore the CC#7 messages send by both the GK's switch and its volume knob (I did this by setting it to respond to an unused MIDI channel).

This is something to check into if you're using the VG-99 together with other MIDI-controlled gear that respond to MIDI CC messages....

RolandArthur

Hi, following the steps how to set up the GK-3 and the VG-99 on Top things to know I still have problems with hearing the sound of the normal pickups.When the guitar is direct connected to the VG-99 guitar input and using the guitar output you can hear the unprocessed signal.
Even when you switch off the VG99. Using the main output then you can use the effects etc for the normal Pickups. Using the Interface cable and selecting guitar on the GK-3 doesn't give any sound of the normal Pickups through the VG-99
Probably some settings are not "optimal".
The final solution will be resetting to factory settings.
I hope for a another solution.
Best regards

Brent Flash

Not sure what you are having trouble with, the 13 pin connected and not getting the normal pickups or the regular guitar cable hooked to the GUITAR IN, or both.

When hooked up with the 13 pin the main problem most have is in the COSM GUITAR/MIX LEVEL/NORMAL PICKUP area, the normal volume defaults to zero, so you have to turn it up in the patch to hear it. If it is the GK switch you are having trouble getting to work that is an assign problem.

If it is the GUITAR IN you can't get to work that is the GK SETTING/GK CONNECTION/ set to ON or OFF not AUTO.

Let me know if you have any luck or more questions.

RolandArthur

Hi, first I did a backup of the patches and the system and performed a reset.
Now it is working.
The signal of the normal pickups are transmitted now through the 13 pin cable and passed  through the main output
I shall compare the previous settings with the new one.
I'll let you know when I have the answer.
Anyway thanks for the reply and suggestions.
Roland.