Recording Band Rehearsals

Started by gandolf, November 01, 2012, 01:40:03 PM

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gandolf

Quote from: Elantric on October 31, 2012, 08:35:20 AM
........play 3 hour gigs....

Later I can import all the separate Wave files from all the above recorders into a DAW, Line up the tracks  - and have a good multitrack recording.

Hi elantic,

I want to record all our band rehearsals for reference....would you recommend this method for that purpose ??   It seems I,ll end up with a multi track and that's good (since no way of mixing) ...  But are those 3hr files difficult to handle with a 3yr old i5 laptop or new iPad? We are a 4piece..
Also only software I have access to is Audicity, GarageBand or an old version of Musiccreator (PC)...is that ok you think?? Any advice appreciated ..!..

Elantric

#1
Certainly there are many ways to "skin the cat" - and way too many options today for recording bands.

At minimum - I recommend a Zoom H2N this makes decent stereo recordings

Next step up I would recommend a Zoom R16 or R24 - as these have 8 XLR/TRS Inputs and can capture 8 tracks at the same time for live recordings. - You can buy two used Zoom R16's for under $600 and gang them together with their proprietary USB Sync  for live 16 track recordings.


The "multiple Line6 Back Track" method here is a rather "stealth Multitrack Recording" method  - but it requires  a fair amount of post production work in a DAW (Reaper or Sony Vegas is what I use )  to yield the same results which could have been achieved more readily with the Zoom R16.

I like having the right tool for the occasion, many times if your band performs at a Festival - there is zero time nor accommodation to setup a PA Mic Splitter ( a pair of ART S8 )for a multitrack audio recording feed.  So the "multiple Line6 Back Track" method to the rescue.

gandolf

Yeah, having the right gear for the right application is always good...just need to find that bottomless pot of gold!

so with the individual "back track" method:
  -  i know to lineup audio tracks can be tricky, unless you have a click count-in on all the tracks.....so do you do anything when you are recoding to get such a reference point?

also, this might sound like a silly question, but theoretically there should be no time drift, even over 3 hrs...is that your experience?

Elantric

#3
Quote-  i know to lineup audio tracks can be tricky, unless you have a click count-in on all the tracks.....so do you do anything when you are recoding to get such a reference point?

If I'm familiar with the Bands material, I will power up my Lenovo W520, launch Sony Vegas and import all the wave files from all the recorders into separate tracks:

Track #1  Stereo wave imported from Zoom H2N recorder  =  Stereo Drums

Track #2 Stereo wave imported from Line6 Backtrack with Mic,  = Lead Guitar (Left Channel) , Miced significant bleed of all stage amps (Right channel)

Track #3 Mono wave imported from Line6 Backtrack (no mic) = Bass Guitar

Track #4 Mono wave imported from Line6 Backtrack (no mic)  =  Rhythm Guitar



Quotealso, this might sound like a silly question, but theoretically there should be no time drift, even over 3 hrs...is that your experience?

Indeed yes there can be significant differences  / drift / end times of each track. This is where Sony Vegas "Time Stretch" tool is used to adjust and align all the tracks.

gandolf

Sorry ... This is not really a vguitar question....

But I've had look into this a bit more and stumbled across using a iPad GUI and a FireWire USB Io  ( Eg: Auria + Scarlett 18i6 or presonus 1818).... I've seen claims about using these for live mixing as well....

But I suspect there would be some latency issues with this??  Has anyone had any experience with this kind of stuff?

Elantric

#5
Its a bit costly and clumsy in my opinion (I was a beta tester for Auria)

Also - if you read that Firewire was supported on iPad - you read that wrong

(Here is a list of Auria Supported USB Audio Interfaces)
http://auriaapp.com/Support/auria-audio-interfaces


You will need a powered USB Hub to make a  mult-input USB Audio Interface work with the iPad+ Camera Connection Kit (CCK)

And Auria can run into over $75 after you do the in-app purchases.

and remember - IOS is still limited to 16 bit audio - this changed in 2013, iPad  / IOS now supports 24 bit audio.

I still view these as Toys - not tools, since by the time I lug an iPad 64 3G($865) +CCK ($40) +Powered USB Hub ($20)+ multichannel USB Audio Interface ($499) - its about the same cost and setup time as decent laptop running a real DAW.  (Lenovo W520 + MOTU 828MK3 running Reaper DAW)

Also the battery can drain on the ipad midshow- since the official Apple CCK lacks any ability to feed an external AC power adapter to power the iPad.

Also the new Lightning port on recent iPads  leaves the whole future of mutlitrack audio recording in limbo  - while we await the actual status of the future Lighting CCK adapter
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MD821ZM/A/lightning-to-usb-camera-adapter?fnode=3a
EDIT - Test reveals the Lighting to 30 pin adapter work very well and allows old 30 pin hardware to  still function with the latest Lighting Connector equipped iPads  - I'm using a Behrenger IS-202 with my iPad Mini+ Lighting to 30 pin adapter just fine
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=9005.0


I get more mileage and reliability from a stand alone battery powered multitrack recorder like the Zoom R16 ($350) or Zoom R24 ($499).

I use those to capture live shows all the time (graduated from a Yamaha AW16G, Fostex VF16)  - but always transfer the tracks into a DAW for mixing / sweetening.


I should mention another product which proves to be useful for many bands - the Jamhub TourBus

Its designed by former Bose engineers to be a "silent rehearsal system"  and the TourBus version has a built in 2 channel recorder (to SD Card) that can record a mix of your bands rehearsals.

Many use the Jamhub as as  basis for an In ear Monitor system too.
(details here)
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=22

http://www.jamhub.com/what/tourbus.html?3e3ea140
http://www.jamhub.com/what/JamHubOwnersManual_English.pdf


and there's the

QSC Touchmix 16 - 22 tracks with iPhone remote control
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=11423.0



Jim Williams

With my new band we write original material with the intention of making a CD. I use a (windows)PC laptop with a DAW called Studio One (I highly recommend taking a look at this one) and a Tascam USB 2.0 multi channel recording interface. I can record the hole ban live in the studio and mix later and add more tracks later. I get some pretty good results. for your purposes you may not want to use as many mics on the drums but I would recommend building a sound wall around the drum kit to avoid a lot of sound bleed. of coarse the bass player are working in the virtual world so we don't worry about mic bleeding. Now if I could get the drummer to get a V-kit all the tracks would be perfect. this may not be the rout you wish to peruse but I felt I would share any way. you may just want to mic the room with a multi track recorder.... in that case mic placement is critical for a decent recording. I f things are tight I would suggest one of the small Zoom recorders that Elantric mentioned.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

musicman65

My practice space is my studio and I have an 8 channel Delta 1010 rack interface to PCI card interface in my PC running Cubase.

We use the following:

Drummer
Roland V-Session kit with added symbols, double bass pedal

Me:
VG-99 with Proteus 2000 rack synth

Other guitar:
Line6 PodXT Live

Bassist:
Line6 Bass modeler (not sure of model)

We use Mackie SA1531z mains as monitors. We have a second pair as mains for gigs up to 300 seaters. We use all 4 at bike rallies, etc. Only the vocal mics are "live" in the room so bleed is minimal. My setup allows instant replay and individual isolation of tracks. It settles any arguments over conflicting parts!

We practice and gig with the same pedals. Stage volume is kept low, all pedals are PA direct connected, and IEMs are used live...no wedges or sidefills. I mix from the stage since what I hear in my buds is what the FOH PA is sending. Modelling technology has completely changed our approach!

bd

gandolf

Thanks for all feedback !!  Great points and suggestions...more questions and research for me I think...

gandolf

Quote from: Elantric on November 05, 2012, 09:34:49 AM

I still view these as Toys - not tools, since by the time I lug an iPad 64 3G($865) +CCK ($40) +Powered USB Hub ($20)+ multichannel USB Audio Interface ($499) - its about the same cost and setup time as decent laptop running a real DAW.  (Lenovo W520 + MOTU 828MK3 running Reaper DAW)


....and Jim and Musciman both posted similar type of setups...

So, are these set-ups usable for live setups too?

I'm thinking we could eventually ditch our old PA, and use some descent powered speakers, with the above kind of setup... So it's all-round setup we can use to record rehearsal +  use live....(at least for smaller gigs only needing no/minimal drum mic-up)

but is it reliable?
Or is too clumsy on stage (i.e. "physical" faders can be easy to manage on the fly, and mixers are pretty reliable creatures now days...) ?

PS: I've seen Allesis have some Multimix USB2.0 mixers that have 10 channels of 24bit/96Khz recording...but seem entry level as far as mixers go...(e.g. no subgroups to configure onstage monitoring, limited effects, etc...)
PSS: Jamhub does look interesting, but isn't an "all" situation solution...and it just looks like a toy..

Elantric

#10
If you have a clean slate today - and just now buying gear

I see many many local bands that use a PreSonus Studiolive mixer and an iMac or Macbook Pro:


http://www.presonus.com/
http://www.presonus.com/products/Mixers


Backing up a bit - a Phonic Helix 24 with Firewire+ a decent Laptop (Lenovo W520) can be employed (these used to run $600 5 years ago - yes inflation exists!)
http://www.amazon.com/Phonic-Helix-Board-24-Universal/dp/B0028LHV74



Just get a Sweetwater or B&H catalog and see what floats your boat.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/browse/Live-Sound/ci/12159/N/4294549799


A good budget DAW/Live board is a used Yamaha  AW4416 - I got one in a flight case with two ADAT I/O cards for $400 used.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep00/articles/yamahaaw.htm



A friend uses an Alesis MultiMix16 usb2_0 (18 audio sends) to a 2008 era Macbook pro running GarageBand

http://www.alesis.com/multimix16usb20

Ive used many different recording rigs  - typically what ever I could afford or owned at that moment.

More ideas here:
http://tweakheadz.com/

gandolf

Thanks Elantic...your knowledge seems endless and intensely usefull (traits not often found together).  Great Stuff!
The presonus stuff  caught my eye for functionality, but so too did the Alesis for cost....

I'm just wondering though,  if you go away from the traditional desk type mixer and used the rack-mount audio interface and a laptop DAW to control... am i right to assume that with rack units (like the Moto 828 or presonus 1818, etc) that the actual audio is processed in the rack, and does not route back to the Laptop (so that laptop is only a control device), and therefore you'd only need serious grunt if you are recording to the laptop at high quality... have i got that right?

Elantric

QuoteI'm just wondering though,  if you go away from the traditional desk type mixer and used the rack-mount audio interface and a laptop DAW to control... am i right to assume that with rack units (like the Moto 828 or presonus 1818, etc) that the actual audio is processed in the rack, and does not route back to the Laptop (so that laptop is only a control device), and therefore you'd only need serious grunt if you are recording to the laptop at high quality... have i got that right?

Its true many modern interfaces have internal DSP processing and can be used as a stand alone mixer - no computer required.

There are many articles on SOS that talk about this
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep08/articles/audiointerfaces.htm


MOTU 828 Mk3
http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/828mk3/mixing.html

They have a TouchOSC template form using an iPad as your control surface
http://www.motu.com/newsitems/wireless-control-of-cuemix-from-your-iPad

but the fine print will tell you you need a PC/Mac and Wi-Fi router to provide the link

Presonus StudioLive Mixer products take this concept further - with onboard control surface / faders 

The recording aspect is accomplished as a side chain multi-channel audio send to a PC/Mac running a DAW app (Logic, Reaper, Presonus StudioOne, etc)

Bottom line in any Live Performance mixer will be real time fader i can grab to tame feedback, and adequate stage monitor sends.

I have a utility Phonic Helix 18 Firewire board (purchased on Ebay for $275 ) with adequate performance with the perk of also being able to be used as a 18 discreet audio tracks to a firewire connected PC/Mac running a DAW app .

http://www.zzounds.com/item--PHOHELIX18FW


gandolf

I'm wondering if anyone has any experience or opinion with roland R05 in comparison to zoom H2n?


gumtown

#15
Just like the old days of positioning the cassette recorder in the right place in the room to capture the best balanced room recording, any recorder will do that.

What I use is a laptop running BandLab Cakewalk (multi track DAW) and an Edirol 101 USB device, which gives 8 analog input channels (1/4" jack), and 8 x input to desk insert cables (DIY TS to TRS jack mini snake).
I made an 8 track recording template in Cakewalk, with all the track names pre-labelled and inputs allocated and record armed ready.

All I have to do is open the template and hit the record button, 8 tracks start recording

1 = main vocals
2 = backing vocals
3 = guitar
4 = bass
5 = kick drum
6 = snare drum
7 = floor tom
8 = toms/overhead

once a gig set is recorded, i save with a new title and re-open the 8 track template for the next round.

I can then mix down the recording, do gate/compressor/EQ/effects as required for each track, then output a mixdown.

Here is a quick down & dirty live gig snipet using the above technique.
https://soundcloud.com/umtown/gloria?utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

vtgearhead

We use a Tascam DR40 to record all rehearsals. If you have the luxury of always setting up in the same configuration in the same space it's straightforward to move the recorder location around until things are in reasonable balance.