SY-1000 1.08 pitch detection and stability fix

Started by Bill Ruppert, October 14, 2022, 07:10:45 AM

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gumbo

More trouble than it's worth..invest in something that's made for the job...

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aliensporebomb

This was the short video I did to show the before/after from v1.07 to v1.08:
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

philjynx

#27
Was the top E string (the higher pitch) a little flat or was the synth off?

arkieboy

Quote from: aliensporebomb on October 17, 2022, 06:47:05 PMThis was the short video I did to show the before/after from v1.07 to v1.08:

Wow! I haven't suffered from these problems with my guitars so it's a shock to hear quite how bad they are.

That's not to say I hadn't noticed a difference after I upgraded though, it feels like it added clarity to the instrument and your demo highlights this really well.

Mods: Please pass along my heartfelt thanks to Roland/Boss for the work they've put into the 1.08 update.
Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4

gumtown

Thank You Roland/Boss
please keep the SY-1000 updated

Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

pasha811

Quote from: aliensporebomb on October 17, 2022, 06:47:05 PMThis was the short video I did to show the before/after from v1.07 to v1.08:


Thanks ASB! I had the SY1000 test unit for 1 week and give it back as it showed some (lesser) issues than the one you captured. It's a joy (and a regret) to see that SY1000 now it's right on track, thanks BOSS! A lesson learnt from my side : SY1000 was a keeper Thank you BOSS! A lesson learnt for BOSS : The devil is in the details. ;-)
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Kevin M

Quote from: aliensporebomb on October 17, 2022, 06:47:05 PMThis was the short video I did to show the before/after from v1.07 to v1.08:


Thanks for making this!  Pretty telling results.

Brak(E)man

Quote from: jwhitcomb3 on October 17, 2022, 11:27:21 AMI figured out how to fix the transmission for my Honda CRV, so of course it will work for my Honda riding mower.

Unless it's a hardware ( read GP-10 not guitar.... ) related issue,
it should be fairly easy to fix.
The Alt tune warbles arrived with GP-10 , it seems like it would be the same problem. It would be very odd if it's not.

Boss/Roland should have been aware of this problem 8 years ago.
The problem seems to be that they have not tried to listen to their customers.
I'm hoping they'll try to change that corporate structure.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

arkieboy

Quote from: Brak(E)man on October 19, 2022, 04:15:38 AMUnless it's a hardware ( read GP-10 not guitar.... ) related issue,
it should be fairly easy to fix.



The Alt tune warbles arrived with GP-10 , it seems like it would be the same problem. It would be very odd if it's not.

Boss/Roland should have been aware of this problem 8 years ago.
The problem seems to be that they have not tried to listen to their customers.
I'm hoping they'll try to change that corporate structure.
Its not that simple.

There is evidence that the underlying amp and effects models Boss uses are shared in this generation of products: GT1000 amp models sound very similar to SY1000 models, and give they are deployed on the same DSP platform I think its reasonable to expect that the source code is shared between these units.

However we know the DSP platform is different between the SY and previous units - IIRC Boss trumpeted the capabilities of this platform and how it would allow them to create new products more cheaply and move code from the Roland cloud to hardware units and vice-versa (I wish I could find the reference, now).  Its relatively safe to speculate that the underlying algorithmic problem between the GP and SY might be common because the consequences are similar, but how that algorithm is represented in source code is another thing entirely.

Even if they do share some (speculates) C source, or if the port between the languages is straightforward, the fix for the SY might simply require too much processing power or memory to just patch the GP-10 code.  Perfectly possible that they would need to 'save' EPROM space to get the new code into the unit by recoding one or more other functions, or that the latency of the unit would be increased unacceptably when implementing the fix.  Or even both.

And then the languages might be very different.  Most of the database queries I write are quite simple, but porting a SQL query to XQuery (I'm fluent in both languages) is another matter.  And then you need to check the code works properly.

If a fix is forthcoming it will depend on mathematics of an entirely different kind - accountancy.  Of course there will be social capital to be gained by issuing the patch, but what is the opportunity cost vs. bringing their next DSP product to market?
Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4

Brak(E)man

I don't believe more dsp power nor memory are needed for a GP-10 fix.
I've worked with programming since 1976.
I don't see this as a major update in those terms.
Quite the opposite.
The alt tune works fine before GP-10 with different,
( read less power/space) dsps and memory.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Nobulusprime

Quote from: Bluesbird on October 19, 2022, 05:11:41 AMI suspect the pitch to midi code has degraded (it is even worse than before) to allow for the alt tuning fix. So as I mentioned a long time ago, they should have just left that function out. Unfortunately leaving that function out would also take the OSC synth with it. 
Are you saying that pitch to midi has degraded further since the FW1.08 update and hence the OSC has got worse?
And do you mean that the alt tuning fix is intrinsically linked to poorer P2M performance?

I haven't spent a lot of time on the OSC (or P2M) since the update, only to check to see if it was still pretty poor which it is...

I was hoping that this was something that could be fixed... :(

stub

Quote from: roachone on October 17, 2022, 10:48:03 AMObviously, they now know what the problem was so it really shouldn't a big deal to fix the GP-10. I hope someone from Boss reads our comments and decides to do this.

I'm not sure we can make that assumption. It might not have been a matter of "knowing what the problem is". Might be a much thornier process than that. I'd imagine with a complex processor like this, they are balancing many factors. The GP-10 might have a completely different system-- even though it offers an analogous feature set.

Nobulusprime

Quote from: Bluesbird on October 19, 2022, 08:38:21 AMIt is embarrassingly bad. The fix is to go to system settings and turn guitar to midi to the 'off' setting.  But enough about the pitch to midi—I don't want to ruffle any feathers and I am quite pleased with the SY-1000.  At least now it does some things really, really well. 

My assessment after the fix:

Pitch to midi/osc = poor
Guitar modeling/alt tune = excellent
Amp/effects modeling = great
Dynamic synth/GR300 = excellent

I'd agree with your assessment above. I don't use pitch to midi with the SY1000 at all, never had it is that bad. I've got other several other solutions for that; an adapted FTP connect and MidiGuitar 2 (where's 3? ;) )
 
The OSC is one super frustrating thing with this unit. It's actually a really decent synth engine that is next to useless because of the triggering. I'll set up another test thread for that. I find it hard to believe that they can't fix this the VG99 is so much better and really old units like the GR30 and GR33 are loads better.

gumtown

I think these issues with Boss products within the past 10 years is based more on "get them out the door ASAP and we will fix it if more than
 about 5% customers complain".
If you look at the development team size (I assume not that large) 'vs' the large number of different digital products in production,
 I would bet that these days, the product line designs are being quickly stitched together from out of cookie cutter templates.

It is not like the equipment hardware isn't capable of being as near perfect (as much as a customer/user would expect),
 I would have an expectation that a newer more modern powerful CPU based model to be at least as good as the predecessors,
 the only excuse to have a performance short fall is down to lack of investment of programmer time/R&D (or skills ?).

Nice that Boss have had another 'look' at this and produced firmware 1.08 (Thank You Boss team),
 but that number indicates 8 firmware revisions, and the SY-1000 is still not as good as it could be.
I think Boss really need to invest some time to get this right, because if they continue to use the "cookie cutter" template for future GK products, these remaining issues (Pitch To Midi too slow for me) will remain embedded.

The point I'm rambling towards is, Boss should maybe make less product range, but make them better.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

roachone

Quote from: jwhitcomb3 on October 17, 2022, 11:27:21 AMI figured out how to fix the transmission for my Honda CRV, so of course it will work for my Honda riding mower.
If you fixed a transmission in a car fixing a mower transmission should be a breeze.

jongrant

I am very, VERY happy that they have addressed the alt tune issues. I had given up on using that aspect for anything that wasn't nearly buried in an arrangement, unless glitchy is what I was aiming for. Now I can use alt tunings with a high degree of confidence. THANK YOU ROLAND/BOSS AND YOSHI!!! (Better late than never!)

I am so pleased with this update that I traded an old gk-2 equipped  guitar and a gp-10 for a second SY-1000. This may even lead me to sell my SY-300, although it does some things which I might miss.

I have never been all that interested in triggering outboard MIDI gear, but I can see why people would want to. Perhaps Boss could think of an auxiliary bit of kit that does only that with a GK "through" to go to the SY.

I hate to suggest something that would result in work for our esteemed moderators/hosts (thankyou all!), but perhaps a new poll regarding the 1.08 update might be an efficient way to present user opinions and experiences to Boss, once we've all had some time to get to know the new firmware.

Anyway, I'm a happier grump now!



aliensporebomb

Quote from: philjynx on October 17, 2022, 07:15:51 PMWas the top E string (the higher pitch) a little flat or was the synth off?

It probably was my guitar not being tuned since the previous time I played it.  I pulled it out of the case, did the first example, updated the SY to the new version and did similar playing for the second.  It's just a standard Roland Ready strat.

I haven't messed with the OSC synth much so that will be the next set of tests.   
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

philjynx

Quote from: aliensporebomb on October 20, 2022, 06:59:46 AMIt probably was my guitar not being tuned since the previous time I played it...   

Holds its tune pretty well then, was only a micro tone.
:)

strudl

Just adding my voice to celebrate the work done at Boss on the new firmware (V 1.08)
It's a very solid step forward on the warbles AND the alt tuning issues.

Although I really maintained an interest in the SY-1000 even with these issues, I would say yesterday was the first day where I did not feel any irritant issues since I purchased the product in it's early days. Fantastic !

I have to revisit the Pitch to Midi option, but I honestly gave up on this a while back moving to other solutions. Solutions that are not perfect but more efficient. (Triple Play and Midi Guitar 2).  I would be happy to get at least the GI-20 performances.

But let's stick to what the SY-100 is doing now so well with this new firmware.

pasha811

I am feeling sorry for myself because I ditched SY1000 too fast. I had the chance to try it for a full week before buying and I decided against it. Price was hard discounted as it was a demo unit but at that time (June/July last year) firmware was not up2date. Lesson learned. :o
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

stub

Quote from: pasha811 on January 09, 2023, 10:47:30 PMI am feeling sorry for myself because I ditched SY1000 too fast. I had the chance to try it for a full week before buying and I decided against it. Price was hard discounted as it was a demo unit but at that time (June/July last year) firmware was not up2date. Lesson learned. :o

I can understand the feeling. A week isn't a lot of time, if you're busy.

It's helpful that now we have so many resources to learn about sounds, functions, features, and bugs before getting to that point, but it sounds like you were under some decision pressure because of that great price.

pasha811

Quote from: stub on January 10, 2023, 08:08:29 PMI can understand the feeling. A week isn't a lot of time, if you're busy.

It's helpful that now we have so many resources to learn about sounds, functions, features, and bugs before getting to that point, but it sounds like you were under some decision pressure because of that great price.

You are right. 30% off was great and the shop was very kind to allow that. I had it from Saturday to Saturday so I had good time during weekend and along the week. Such a complex device should need at least 14 days but that was not possible. Life is a cascade of lessons learned. I got mine... stay tuned.. soon I will share another one...  :P
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/