My slow decline in my satisfaction with the Variax. Love/dislikes

Started by clayman, January 16, 2022, 04:07:56 AM

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clayman

I already posted this on Reddit a few days ago, but I figure I'd post here too.

I've known about guitar modeling for about a decade now, and I love the concept, a lot.
I have 2 Variax guitars. A 600, and a JTV 69s.

I love the capabilities. The Variax was my main guitar for years, but I've slowly have seen myself using it less and less.

One of the biggest issues, is metal tones. It's just not very good with it. It's the palm muting, which is essential in metal music. Getting a good chugging sound is essential in metal music. It needs to have a tight attack. The variax has always suffered from palm muting because the piezos sit at the bridge in the saddles. Think about it. Your hand is in front of the pickups when you palm mute. The string vibrations have to go through your hand, and what's left is the tone sucked out of the strings before it hits the piezos. The result is a very muddy sounding palm mute.

The palm mutes are a bit more excusable in rock music, because you don't really need a tight sounding chugging palm mute.

This goes into the main issue of the guitar itself. The piezos. It's what holds the guitar back the most.
Piezos have a better frequency response than magnetics do, so it's a better reference point when modeling guitar tones. It's better to subtracts from then to add to a sound. If you do a high cut on a sound, you can't just EQ the highs back in, they're deleted at that point. Same concept applies to piezos.

The issue with piezos though, is that the dynamics are completely different. The Variax has come as close as possible to try to make it sound convincing, and it's very convincing in situations, but if you pay attention, it doesn't sound the same. The attack of the Variax is more muddy than a normal guitar. The high end is slightly rolled off. If you want any sparkling high end that a real pick up has, you can't really get that.
The dynamics also don't just refer to the attack, but the entirety of the sound. Almost every Variax I hear has a plinky sounding E string. I know the E string is a bit more clanky than the rest of the strings on a normal guitar, but the Variax magnifies that a bit, and the E string almost sounds slightly out of place if you're paying attention sometimes in certain settings.

The plinking and weird tonality is also a result of wolf tone, from some weird longitude vibration across the string that piezos pick up, but not magnetics. There was some article about this a long time ago on the L6 forums.


Ultimately, I don't understand why they don't just go with a magnetic divided pickup like the Roland guitars do, or the GK-3. I know that piezos might have a more overall accurate tone on the Variax, but the other characteristics can sounds off.
The Roland stuff sounds fine to my ears. It genuinely sounds like a real guitar with natural sounding dynamics, probably because it uses the same type of pick up! Even if magnetics aren't as broad as piezos, the design of the pickups on the Roland stuff still sounds great, like the acoustics sound nice, they sound like acoustics, maybe like a plugged in one. The only one that doesn't sound great is the Banjo, I don't know how they screwed that up so bad.

Maybe you're asking, why not just get a VG strat then? I'm actually thinking about it, but that doesn't mean I don't love what the Variax can do, or love the concept. The Variax has way better functionality and features that are usable. I know the VG floorboards exist, but it's not as nice as having it onboard the guitar.

I hope if Line 6 does a new generation of Variax, they use a magnetic pickup, because I just think it sounds more natural. I find myself going to the Variax, and I can get some awesome sounds, but I find myself being disappointed when I want to dial in certain sounds and play a certain way, and it just reacts poorly or sounds off.
I think if the Variax had a more natural sounding modeling tone, it would be doing better, not that they're not doing good with it, but I think it would sell more.

There's a difference between "does this sound like a convincing guitar" vs "does this sound like a convincing type of guitar". When you run into the weird abnormalities, it makes you think "this isn't what a guitar is supposed to do". When you run into a strat model sounding 90% like a strat, you think "this sounds nearly just like my actual strat" not "this doesn't sound like a guitar".

Sorry if this is a bit rambly. Typed this before I went to sleep, but I just wanna hear peoples thoughts and see if anyone gets what I feel.

admin

Sadly the best DSP guitar modeling system created in past 10 years was dead on arrival simply due to the product branding name, ( AutoTune Guitar) and misconception in the marketplace due its Autotune which could be ignored and turned off, retaining on exhibition superior pickup and acoustic modelling , all warble free on Alt tunings too. but the damage in the marketplace and major opposition on the products AutoTune focus meant the company lost $$$$, and very few examples of its best implementation exist, because the company initially did not offer the technology for sale to the general public ( ATG Internal Kit) , due to contractual obligations  to a separate companies (Parker &  Peavey ) both soon to shut down  US production lines.


eUphonic

Quote from: clayman on January 16, 2022, 04:07:56 AM
The attack of the Variax is more muddy than a normal guitar. The high end is slightly rolled off. If you want any sparkling high end that a real pick up has, you can't really get that.

Having bought in 2003 one of the first Variax (that I still own and that I've fitted with mag PU's + a GK3), I've tried to understand what happened and came to the following conclusions among others:

1) the Variax piezo transducers naturally promote frequencies from 1khz to 1.2khz approximatively. It's the nature of the beast.
2) in order to hide this natural frequency content AND to emulate "vintage" sounds (or rather the idea that most people have of "vintage"), L6 engineers have lowered the virtual resonant peaks of their virtual mag pickups: all their electric guitar models have apparently been modeled as real guitars plugged through a high capacitance virtual cable (of 1nF or more, which is equal to 6m of regular wire or more and which is basically darkening the tone).

Consequences:
-if we want a real regular electric guitar to sound closer to Variax models, let's plug the real thing through a long capacitive cable;
-if we want Variax models to sound closer to a real electric guitar plugged through a shorter cable (and brighter because of the lower cable stray capacitance), we'll have to think out of the box - for example, by using Workbench to stack twice the same pickup at the same virtual place, both being wired in parallel. It will/would divide by four the virtual inductance and give an higher pitched virtual resonant peak... but it will/would require the output level to be boosted accordingly. Once that done, a Variax model should exhibit more "sparkle"... without loosing the boosted high mids of piezo transducers, sadly, and always with these weird piezo transients. So, it's never quite like the real thing... And I agree about GK3 powered models as being more natural. That's why I've butchered my Variax 500. :-P

FWIW (hasty sum up of lab measurements and sonic experiments done 18 years ago; to take accordingly). :-)

clayman

Quote from: admin on January 16, 2022, 06:35:27 AM
Sadly the best DSP guitar modeling system created in past 10 years was dead on arrival simply due to the product branding name, and misconception in the marketplace due its unique feature which could be ignored and turned off, but the damage in the marketplace and major opposition on the products focus meant the company lost $$$$, and very few examples of its best implementation exist, because the company initially did not offer the technology for sale to the general public, due to contractual obligations  to a separate company who was soon to shut down bulk of its US production lines.



Irony is that this could probably be the best alt tuning system too, because Anteres leads in pitch shift technology.

I think it was bad to call it the autotune guitar though. No one really cares about the concept of "auto tuning" a guitar.

Way of Introducing such technology is crucial, because guitarists can honestly be pretty big technophobes and will write stuff off easily.

It's kind of ironic that the Variax is in the lead when it comes to modeling tech today, since Line 6 have a very hit and miss reputation. I think they're known for innovation, but they're also critiqued more for quality and execution.

The Variax just does fine in certain types of music, but again, the issue is running into styles or tones where you go "yeah this won't work, I can't use it with this".

I imagine you can use the humbucker setting on the VG just fine for metal guitar, but the lower alternate tunings probably start to get muddy.
This ironically again, goes back to the autotune guitar probably having the most potential in alt tunings.
A lot of modern pitch shifter plug-ins have options to preserve timbre, so it doesn't sound muddy when you tune down, or doesn't sound squeaky when you tune up. I think autotune does this as well in their pitch shifting.

I haven't payed attention to the modeling as much on the autotune guitar, but if it sounds great, then yeah, it could have had the possibility to be the best modeler. This would also drive competition, and in turn technology innovation, but again, sadly marketing is an issue.

eUphonic

As a post scriptum to my previous answer, I share below two attached files: a pic showing the unprocessed response of Variax piezo transducers (in blue) and GK3 (in light red), when strings are played altogether up to the 12th fret. The high mids promoted by Variax piezo's should be clearly visible.

The other pic is a comparison suggesting that Variax virtual electric guitars are indeed modeled after real guitars played through some high capacitance cable; if a real Strat is played through a 20' cable, its response is largely the same than with the Variax Strat. If the real guitar is played through a shorter cable with less capacitance, frequency responses become mismatched.

Food for thought in order to contextualize my rambling on capacitance:

FWIW.

admin

IMHO, just get a gently used Yamaha G1D, or GK-2A. Mount onto your guitar with a good fret level and dress , and feed a gently used Boss GP-10 = superior guitar modeling vs any Variax. Allows palm muting , and far more capability in a stage friendly package.

gbr13697

I have a Variax Standard and a JTV69.  Whilst some of the instrument emulations are OK, I can't say I have ever been impressed by the alternative tunings.  They are OK strumming chords, but single note runs show up the "synthy" quality of the emulated tuning.  For instance, in Open G, the High E downtuned to D sounds awful against the naturally tuned B string.  It is particularly noticeable playing slide. As for the 12 string emulations where all the strings are artificially tuned, it may be OK for strumming a few jangly chords, but single notes sound ridiculous - you may as well just use a chorus pedal.
I recently bought an Emerald Virtuo with Graphtec Ghost piezos, which made it worth trying the GR-55 and SY-1000.  This led me to fit a GK-3 to an old Epiphone SG with quite good results.  I use the Variax Standard for slide, so I also fitted that with a GK-3.  This enables me to directly compare instrument and tuning emulations from both systems on the same guitar.  I would have to say that the instrument emulations via GK-3 and GR-55 are much better than the Variax.  There are obviously less guitar models than from the Variax, but there are many other instruments available.  The alternative tunings are also a bit better on the GK-3 through the GR-55 or SY-1000, though you are then limited to the guitars that are  modeled in those synths.  Disappointingly, the synthy quality of the artificially tuned strings is still there, though not as bad.  It amazes me that these gadgets can make a high E played on a guitar string sound convincingly like a pipe organ (or a myriad other instruments), but they can't make a high E played on a guitar string sound convincingly like a D played on the same string!

clayman

Quote from: gbr13697 on January 17, 2022, 02:26:14 AM
I have a Variax Standard and a JTV69.  Whilst some of the instrument emulations are OK, I can't say I have ever been impressed by the alternative tunings.  They are OK strumming chords, but single note runs show up the "synthy" quality of the emulated tuning.  For instance, in Open G, the High E downtuned to D sounds awful against the naturally tuned B string.  It is particularly noticeable playing slide. As for the 12 string emulations where all the strings are artificially tuned, it may be OK for strumming a few jangly chords, but single notes sound ridiculous - you may as well just use a chorus pedal.
I recently bought an Emerald Virtuo with Graphtec Ghost piezos, which made it worth trying the GR-55 and SY-1000.  This led me to fit a GK-3 to an old Epiphone SG with quite good results.  I use the Variax Standard for slide, so I also fitted that with a GK-3.  This enables me to directly compare instrument and tuning emulations from both systems on the same guitar.  I would have to say that the instrument emulations via GK-3 and GR-55 are much better than the Variax.  There are obviously less guitar models than from the Variax, but there are many other instruments available.  The alternative tunings are also a bit better on the GK-3 through the GR-55 or SY-1000, though you are then limited to the guitars that are  modeled in those synths.  Disappointingly, the synthy quality of the artificially tuned strings is still there, though not as bad.  It amazes me that these gadgets can make a high E played on a guitar string sound convincingly like a pipe organ (or a myriad other instruments), but they can't make a high E played on a guitar string sound convincingly like a D played on the same string!

Like I said, I figured the modeling on a GK setup sounds more natural from using a magnetic pickup. The variax probably has a closer overall match to the guitars it's emulating, via IR convolution, but the attack and dynamics are off when it comes to a Variax cause of the piezos.

The Vguitar stuff might be slightly less accurate in the overall tone, but it still sounds 100% like a real guitar cause of usjng magnetic pickups, if that makes any sense. Then again from all the demos I've heard, the Vguitar stuff sounds really accurate to me.

Seeing videos switching between the strat and modeled strat on a VG Strat sounds surprisingly close.
I mean, I've compared the sounds between my Variax's strat and the 69s pickups and it sounds very close, but I can hear the differences. Just depends. I'll find out when my VG Strat gets in the mail.

eUphonic

I've stated above that I agree about GK3 powered sims as being more realistic for electric guitar emulations than Variax piezo's...

That said...

I really think Variax users should be sensibilized to the fact that passive pickups in electric guitars have no defined sound by themselves...

A Strat plugged through 120m of typical cable would sound exactly like another Strat through a 10' cable but with a tone pot @ 0/10 (unless a buffer would be there to neutralize the capacitive effect)...

The length of cable emulated by Variax guitars is just where the capacitive effect becomes really noticeable (around or above 6m / 1 nanofarad): it's meant to give the kind of middy tones with subdued highs popularized by Hendrix or SRV and not a transparent bright sound. Explanation there, if necessary:

http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/All_About_Tone.htm/CableandSound.htm

And I'm referring only to stray capacitance : height settings of pickups and/or their poles  below the strings are another parm susceptible to have a noticeable effect on harmonics and that a Variax doesn't allow to tweak, for instance...

FWIW (= something essential IME and IMHO but YMMV of course and as usual).

clayman

Quote from: eUphonic on January 18, 2022, 03:11:06 AM
I've stated above that I agree about GK3 powered sims as being more realistic for electric guitar emulations than Variax piezo's...

That said...

I really think Variax users should be sensibilized to the fact that passive pickups in electric guitars have no defined sound by themselves...

A Strat plugged through 120m of typical cable would sound exactly like another Strat through a 10' cable but with a tone pot @ 0/10 (unless a buffer would be there to neutralize the capacitive effect)...

The length of cable emulated by Variax guitars is just where the capacitive effect becomes really noticeable (around or above 6m / 1 nanofarad): it's meant to give the kind of middy tones with subdued highs popularized by Hendrix or SRV and not a transparent bright sound. Explanation there, if necessary:

http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/All_About_Tone.htm/CableandSound.htm

And I'm referring only to stray capacitance : height settings of pickups and/or their poles  below the strings are another parm susceptible to have a noticeable effect on harmonics and that a Variax doesn't allow to tweak, for instance...

FWIW (= something essential IME and IMHO but YMMV of course and as usual).

I think there are a lot of variables that come into play where yes, it could sound better and closer, and I know cable length can help. It's why I got a 10 instead of a 20, but when I'm sitting here playing through an interface, it's very noticeable how it reacts differently.

I also think the initial hype is just, deteriorated, I suppose, making more picky about the differences in dynamics, and less like "Wow it sounds so close, and has all of these tones".

I also noticed the Variax HD and the original 2000s modeling has different approaches. Sometimes I wonder if I should have rolled back my guitar.
The first Variax modeling seemed super bent on emulating nuances of guitars. The gretch models even going as far as simulating bigsby trem ringing.
The HD more focuses on making the top end less rolled off sounding.

Regardless, the dynamics were never 100%. None of the Variax modeling has any top end sparkle that a real guitar has, which might be essential to some tones. Clarity was always slightly muddier. I switch between a modeled strat, and the SSS pickups, and the pick attack is very different. A lot of this is probably lost in a mix, but it definitely hurts some tones.

This is why it's unusable in modern metal. You're never gonna get this thing to sound like a proper EMG equipped guitar in a lower tuning.

It's why I've constantly been using my Epi LP custom over this.