Music Man GameChanger Guitar

Started by Elantric-fgn, January 12, 2011, 01:54:26 PM

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Elantric-fgn



Nice shot of where I live in  San Luis Obispo,CA the opening 2 minutes.  (I worked at EB/MM 1999-2001, and currently work just a block away past 10 years)


More here:
http://gamechanger.music-man.com/videos






. . . the future ain't what it used to be . . .

Johnnyurq-fgn

Nice one Elantric thanks for that this looks very interesting, now to check out all the videos.

Elantric-fgn

#2
My two cents:

Bummer there's no LED display to provide user feedback on what mode is currently active.

and I question the "9 million variations" quote. (!!)

And where are the FCC /CE/UL stickers?


I also predict noise anomalies during pickup configuration setup  with a Laptop connected via USB when unbalanced guitar output audio is also feeding a high gain amp.

. . . the future ain't what it used to be . . .

MCK-fgn

Thanks for sharing. I like what I'm seeing but I agree you would want some indication of what bank you're in etc. The ~9mil combination is probably possible since the combinations are upto 6 variable at a time x 2 for each coil since there is the phasing option as well. My question is who has the time and memory to go through all 6 million and remember which 10 to 15 they like the most... In other words, the more choices my gear gives me I find myself tinkering more and playing less... Endless hours of tone chasing. I like doing it though...
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Germanicus-fgn

This looks cool.

"One of the most significant thing to ever happen to the electric guitar" is a bit much for custom switching.

Roland VG99
Pod HD500
JTV69, Variax 600 and 700 Acoustic
Traynor k4

www.steamtheory.com

PLexxiTronic

#5
This looks pretty cool.

But, if it is USB, WHY isn't it USB3.0?  We are in January 2011, after all.  I, personally, don't think, due to latency issues, that even the present bandwidths of USB2.0, Firewire, and Firewire800 (1394a and 1394b) are really very good. I, myself, am dumping anything less than the bandwidth offered by USB3.0 at this point in time.  I am looking forward to USB3.0 adapters/converters for what I think are now "legacy" items.

Elantric-fgn

#6
QuoteI am looking forward to USB3.0 adapters/converters for what I think are now "legacy" items.

Me too, but I predict USB 3.0 interfaces will be very slow arriving in mass .

In this implementation, there's no need for the bandwidth of USB 3.0 here. In fact this Gamechanger its probably only USB 1.0. The MusicMan Gamechanger simply uses USB to program the  internal pickup switching system's presets.
There is no "Audio over USB, or "Guitar to MIDI" over USB going on here.
 

And - show me a non Intel I7  Laptop you can buy today that has USB 3.0 port?


If I were designing a similar guitar functionality as the MusicMan Gamechanger, i would want it to succeed in the Market place today, and NOT be forcing a USB 3.0 interface as a requirement for pre-programming my split coils on my guitar.


. . . the future ain't what it used to be . . .

PLexxiTronic

#7
Yeah, I get the "don't force it down their throat" issues.  I didn't understand that there was no audio going over the wire (Hmmm, that's weird, huh, as you'd think they would do it). 

I have USB3.0 on my HP now using that ExpressCard slot we both have.  It is probably 600MB instead of 625MB, as you might imagine.  But, it is still near-USB3 speeds and my disc copies are very fast.  It is backward compatable to USB2, of course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_device_bit_rates

http://www.frys.com/product/6390751?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Western+Digital+-+My+Passport+Essential+SE+1TB+External+USB+3.0/2.0+Portable+Hard+Drive+-+Black/1251981.p?id=1218242902280&skuId=1251981&st=my passport 1 tb&contract_desc=null

http://www.frys.com/product/6376711?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

http://www.frys.com/product/6237390;jsessionid=d64ia9wVlTUa6i34wP7f6A__.node3?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

http://www.frys.com/product/6283410;jsessionid=d64ia9wVlTUa6i34wP7f6A__.node3?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

vanceg-fgn

Quote from:  PLexxiTronic on January 12, 2011, 06:57:52 PM
This looks pretty cool.

But, if it is USB, WHY isn't it USB3.0?  We are in January 2011, after all.  I, personally, don't think, due to latency issues, that even the present bandwidths of USB2.0, Firewire, and Firewire800 (1394a and 1394b) are really very good. I, myself, am dumping anything less than the bandwidth offered by USB3.0 at this point in time.  I am looking forward to USB3.0 adapters/converters for what I think are now "legacy" items.

EVERY SINGLE person I have talked to who is involved with designing computer based audio systems, designing circuit boards, designing drivers, designing I/O boxes has responded the same way:  "I don't need USB 3 at all. I have absolutely less than zero interest in it. It does not one little tiny thing to improve my product. I have perfectly fine performance for my (2 to 32) channel device using the modern USB 2 chipsets.".

I'm amazed, too. I thought there would be a big swing to USB 3. But the absolute consistency of the response I get, from people I respect a LOT and who have designed a LOT of product that has done very well in the marketplace really surprised me.


MCK-fgn

Has this product been released? Anyone of you played one yet?
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Elantric-fgn

I understand there are a few bugs remaining to be ironed out so its stuck in R&D.

Another product that was hatched too early for public consumption in my opinion, and the hype of "a million PU combinations" reveals much.

Seems all the latest High Tech Guitars are designed in a bubble by folks who have never performed live gigs. The user control interface of all these guitars is abhorrent.

. . . the future ain't what it used to be . . .

MCK-fgn

Agreed. I was impressed to see that they have an iPad interface linking via an external BT Dongle.
Dark Fire Initial Check Out  - Q/A
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=31267.0

Caig DeOxit - Buy now before you need it !!!
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=31707.0

DF400-fgn

Quote from:  Elantric on August 21, 2011, 09:09:52 AM
I understand there are a few bugs remaining to be ironed out so its stuck in R&D.

Another product that was hatched too early for public consumption in my opinion, and the hype of "a million PU combinations" reveals much.

Seems all the latest High Tech Guitars are designed in a bubble by folks who have never performed live gigs. The user control interface of all these guitars is abhorrent.



Amen to that!

DavidWhittingham

This thing looks pretty awesome and is exactly the kind of flexibility I've been thinking about for the last couple of months. I've already bought a couple of guitars this year, but this may have to be the third.

PMT Music

Just say NO to Patent Violators! Sterling Ball and Musicman did not think of programmable pickup switching. The truth is that Musicman paid our company to build a sample Axis guitar with the Guitar Max Programmable Pickup Switching System (US patent 7,726,657) way back in 2008 and said that they were interested in purchasing the patented technology for use in their guitars. Then in 2011 they claimed to have thought of it on their own stating that there is "no similarity" between the non patented Gamechanger programmable pickup switching concept and patented Guitar Max programmable pickup switching concept. Musicman will also not acknowledge that they first got the idea and sample Axis guitar from PMT 3 years before "inventing" it on their own. Photos of our techs installation of the Guitar Max System in the Axis guitar sent to us us by Musicman's new product developer Drew "Drewbixcube" Montel in 2008 can be viewed at  http://www.pmtmusic.com/musicman_prototype_programmable_pickup_guitar.htm

Elantric-fgn

#15
PMT Music ,

Welcome to FGN

Thanks for posting your perspective on this.
. . . the future ain't what it used to be . . .

Elantric-fgn

#16
http://www.pmtmusic.com/guitar_max.htm
PMT GuitarMax System


Guitar Max Pickup Control System for Guitar & Bass.

:"The most important advance for guitar since the humbucker..."

The patented Guitar Max Pickup Control System is the worlds first pickup control system designed to unlock the full potential of any multi-wire guitar or bass pickups. The Guitar Max system can arrange the pickup coils of humbuckers and single coils in any combination of series or parallel, in or out of phase. All of this is done with micro-switching matrix to keep the guitar tone passive and pure. No phony modeling or digital synthesis, just the rich, natural tones you want in the order you want. Guitar Max can also control the tone pot and optional electronics eliminating the need additional controls and simplifying performance. Totally hidden "stealth" systems also available. View guitars with the Guitar Max programmable system installed.
Guitar Max Pickup Control System Features:

    Thousands of confutations of series, parallel, coil tap & reverse phase.
    Versions available for guitars & basses with 3, 4, 5 or 6 coils.
    Store up to 100 preset configurations for instant recall.
    Micro switching matrix keeps the sound 100% passive & pure.
    Intelligent software adapts to any pickup and control configuration.
    Use any 3-way or 5-way pickup selector, mini switch or push/pull switch as preset & bank controls.
    Optional Momentary switch accesses "Bank Group X" with expanded presets.
    Programmable control of volume and tone pots, optional preamps & piezo/synth pickups.
    Quickly view pickup settings, battery voltage, power usage & more.
    Stealth models available for totally hidden installations with remote programming.


http://www.pmtmusic.com/musicman_prototype_programmable_pickup_guitar.htm
Musicman Programmable Guitar with Guitar Max Pickup Control System
PMT Music Products can provide complete prototype programmable guitars for evaluation of our systems and technologies built to any OEMs specifications. Below is the first programmable Musicman guitar being outfitted with Guitar max technology for Drew Montel, new product developer for Musicman guitars in 2008. This guitar has the ability to assign the pickup coils in any combination of series, parallel and phase and and can assign any of the user or factory presets to any pickup switch position with multiple banks to choose from. Note that the overall appearance of the finished Musicman guitar does not change much and the player still uses the original 5-way switch as the preset selector keeping the same look and feel the player is used to. This prototypes specs called for the 3-way bank selector to upped to a 5-way rotary (PRS style) bank selector and the optional momentary "bank group x" switch is omitted for simplicity. The optional removable display is built-in on this guitar which allows quick re-programming on-the-fly but takes a bit more space in the back of the guitar (about the size of a 9V battery).
Musicman Programmalbe Axis guitar prototype before modification   Musicman Programmalbe Axis guitar prototype with planned body modifications   Musicman Programmalbe Axis guitar prototype body routed and painted

Musicman Prototype
Drew Montels Musicman Axis guitar with original electronics and controls


Completed 4-coil installation hand wired to the original pair of 4-conductor Musicman Axis pickups


Completed front view of the first Musicman Axis guitar with programmable pickup switching control system.

      
Musicman Programmable Guitar with Guitar Max Pickup Control System
PMT Music Products can provide complete prototype programmable guitars for evaluation of our systems and technologies built to any OEMs specifications. Below is the first programmable Musicman guitar being outfitted with Guitar max technology for Drew Montel, new product developer for Musicman guitars in 2008. This guitar has the ability to assign the pickup coils in any combination of series, parallel and phase and and can assign any of the user or factory presets to any pickup switch position with multiple banks to choose from. Note that the overall appearance of the finished Musicman guitar does not change much and the player still uses the original 5-way switch as the preset selector keeping the same look and feel the player is used to. This prototypes specs called for the 3-way bank selector to upped to a 5-way rotary (PRS style) bank selector and the optional momentary "bank group x" switch is omitted for simplicity. The optional removable display is built-in on this guitar which allows quick re-programming on-the-fly but takes a bit more space in the back of the guitar (about the size of a 9V battery).




We have received hundreds if inquiries about sales of the Guitar Max system, however Ernie Ball corp. claims to have invented the programmable pickup system they call "The Gamechanger". They do not acknowledge that their new product developer Drew "drewbixcube" Montel sent us an Axis guitar and paid us to install a Guitar max system for Ernie Ball/Musicman to "evaluate for purchase and use in their guitars". Since then, Ernie Ball/Musicman has apparently decided to use the technology covered by our US patent 7,726,657 without our consent and as of yet have not been able to secure a patent of their own. It should be noted that while Ernie Ball corp. has denied any similarity between the Gamechanger guitar and Guitar Max system, they have threatened legal action against our company for publicly stating that they paid PMT to outfit their new product developers Axis guitar with our patented system for evaluation purposes citing the fact that the systems are "nearly identical and could confuse consumers". Their legal complaint tried to prevent PMT from having public discussions about their purchase of a Guitar Max system and the installation of that system in to the Axis guitar they shipped us several years before they claimed to have invented the concept themselves. Since all of the facts we stated were true, the legal claims against our company made by Ernie Ball/Musicman were debunked by our lawyers and dropped. However the arrogance and dishonesty of Sterling Ball and his company and their refusal to acknowledge publicly who really developed and patented the concept first has prompted PMT and our several of our distributors to pursue Ernie Ball/Musicman for damages resulting from the use of technology covered by our patent without permission.




http://www.edroman.com/rants/ernieball.htm
. . . the future ain't what it used to be . . .

MCK-fgn

Ouch! I was interested in the Game Changer but no more... This also explains why this product never got released to the market... They can't afford to release it while the dispute is unresolved.
Dark Fire Initial Check Out  - Q/A
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Caig DeOxit - Buy now before you need it !!!
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DF400-fgn

I guess the whole patent violation thing didn't hold back the release. It's offered at Guitar Center and Musician's Friend for $2275.00US (bass and standard guitar versions).

Here's what the add reads:

A revolutionary system for creating unique pickup combinations and sounds spontaneously.

View all items from this brand
Imagine being able to change the electrical system of your guitar at the click of a mouse, creating new sounds on the fly.

The Reflex "Game Changer" guitar from Ernie Ball/Music Man has a USB port that interfaces with software that controls all aspects of internal pickup switching - series, parallel, in phase, out of phase, etc. After creating a setup, you can then store the particular pickup configuration in your guitar for live performance.

Though it may look like one on its surface, the Game Changer Reflex is no ordinary guitar. Equipped with the new Game Changer pickup switching system, the Game Changer Reflex guitar will give you an unprecedented number of tonal options in addition to the superb playability players are accustomed to from a Music Man guitar.

With the Game Changer Reflex guitar, players can unlock their instruments' tonal possibilities with the patent-pending Game Changer pickup switching system. Combining any order of pickup coils in series, parallel, in- or out-of-phase gives you access to the most extensive library of never-before-heard tones. Envisage having complete tonal control of your instrument without manually rewiring anything! True to form, the audio signal is never digitized or modeled in any way, providing a transparent analog signal path for the absolute purist. In conjunction with The Game Changer website, you can create, save, and share your tonal selections with the world!

Elantric-fgn

#19
QuoteIt's offered at Guitar Center and Musician's Friend for $2275.00US


For around that same money - I bought two guitars with a lot more sounds than the Gamechanger:  Tyler Variax JTV-59 and a Tyler Variax JTV-69

I played the MM Axis Gamechanger at 2012 Winter NAMM , and it provided nothing new sonically to me - I have had a similar PU coil switching / routing  / mixing tone arrangement since 1981, when I modified my Aria Pro II - true I must do all the switching manually, and there is no USB or CPU - But I know the switch functions and it needs no batteries!  I pull it out of its case every 7 years and it still works!

I wonder what PMT Music has to say?
http://www.pmtmusic.com/musicman_prototype_programmable_pickup_guitar.htm



Some discussion here:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=12937620


 

. . . the future ain't what it used to be . . .

DF400-fgn

+1 Elantric, of absolute no interest to me - If I'm going to spend that kind of money, i've had my heart set on a Rickenbacker 360/12 for some time now!

Elantric-fgn

#21
I'm always an advocate for the little guy who invents something and tries to earn a living off of manufacturing and selling his invention.
But the info at this link is quite disturbing,


http://www.guitarelectronics.com/category/wiring_resources_guitar_wiring_diagrams/

Quote   We have received hundreds if inquiries about sales of the {PMT} Guitar Max system, however Ernie Ball corp. purchased a Guitar Max prototype from PMT in 2008 and appears to have used the technology covered by PMTs US patent 7,726,657 without the consent of PMT for their Gamechanger guitar. So until the legal stuff is sorted out, our distribution deal with PMT for the Guitar Max will be on hold. You can view photos of PMT techs building the first Musicman Axis guitar with the Guitar Max technology back in 2008 at: PMTMusic.com.
. . . the future ain't what it used to be . . .

shawn-fgn

Quote from:  Elantric on January 12, 2011, 01:54:26 PM


Nice shot of where I live in  San Luis Obispo,CA the opening 2 minutes.  (I worked at EB/MM 1999-2001, and currently work just a block away past 10 years)

I know I'm a bit late on this thread but I just joined the forum last week. I also live in SLO. Coincidentally, I've never been to the Ernie Ball/Music Man factory and I don't think I've ever played one of their guitars.

I watched the Game Changer video up until the dude started explaining how the guitar works. Then my head started to spin. I'd much rather have a JTV/Pod HD 500 combination to have easy access to a wide range of tones. This whole "bank A, bank B, bank Z" thing doesn't seem user friendly nor does it seem practical for gigs.

And indeed, the questionable nature of Ernie Ball's "development" of this technology is a bit disturbing.

Elantric-fgn

Welcome to the forum
Shoot me a personal message and I'll share my contact details if you want to meet up in SLO town.
. . . the future ain't what it used to be . . .