GT-1000Core- Slight "oscillation like" sound with preamp sims

Started by TGuven, July 02, 2021, 11:05:18 AM

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TGuven

Hi,
I am new to the forum and I purchased the GT-1000 Core a couple of days ago.

Overall, I am really happy with the sounds. I have used many modellers in the past (including the Axe-II), but due to portability and price issues, I got rid of them at one point. The Core has everything I want and it is certainly a very practical tool at the same time.

My "problem" is; I hear a slight "oscillation" like effect with hi-gain sounds. I must emphasize that I am NOT talking about any noise or digital artefact or what so ever. The effect I am referring to can actually be heard with a real preamp also, but with the Core, it is slightly more emphasized and it gets annoying at times. This is something I have experienced with other modellers in the past (with software and hardware based simulators), but it seems a bit more prominent with the Core at this point.

My question is, is there a way to get rid of that oscillation (or a very slight chorus...)  like sound that becomes especially noticeable when you hold a long note with vibrato etc... ? Could this be something to do with the signal path ? I am plugging the Core into my audio interface (Audient id14) and I have experimented with a wide range of input settings, but that does not seem to make a difference. I am playing with either factory presets or their slightly modified versions. (The sound file link below uses the Patch No 023; Dry X-Drive with some additional reverb).

Thanks in advance...

admin

Post an MP3 audio example , upload your problem patch, or list any factory patches where this occurs
-so others can explore, give it a try  and comment.


Typically what you describe is common attribute of microphonic guitar pickups being fed into a high gain amp, requiring wax potting the pickup.

TGuven

Many thanks for this quick reply.
Here's a link to the file of the problem I am talking about:

https://soundcloud.com/tolga-g/oscillation-like-effect

The underwater/oscillation like effect is prominent throughout; particularly with the long notes starting at around 0:04, 0:25 and 0:33.



admin

Quote from: TGuven on July 02, 2021, 01:07:56 PM
Many thanks for this quick reply.
Here's a link to the file of the problem I am talking about:

https://soundcloud.com/tolga-g/oscillation-like-effect

The underwater/oscillation like effect is prominent throughout; particularly with the long notes starting at around 0:04, 0:25 and 0:33.

I'm on the road - my mobile  chromebook speakers sound great  - so not sure I hear the problem

gumtown

I can't hear anything wrong, but maybe I'm deaf.
Seems strange that you have the same problem with every other modeler you have tried, maybe something else ? guitar, leads ?
although I can't hear it in your recording, as admin has pointed out, what you describe sounds like microphonic feedback.
Guitar pickup, type of lead, are you using a tube amp?
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

HAMERMAN409

If I hear anything it could be the tiniest bit of comb filtering. This can happen when a delayed signal gets mixed in with a regular (non delayed) signal.

TGuven

Thank you very much.
"Filtering" would be another way of describing it I guess. From what you describe, it sounds like a signal path thing.
That being said, I am simply plugging the guitar into the Core.
Interesting...

TGuven

Quote from: gumtown on July 02, 2021, 07:22:27 PM
I can't hear anything wrong, but maybe I'm deaf.
Seems strange that you have the same problem with every other modeler you have tried, maybe something else ? guitar, leads ?
although I can't hear it in your recording, as admin has pointed out, what you describe sounds like microphonic feedback.
Guitar pickup, type of lead, are you using a tube amp?

No, I am going straight to the audio interface. I also used headphones with the Core itself, bypassing the interface.
The effects is still there, but obviously it has a subjective component.
I do not think it has anything to do with the device itself; I think it is functioning properly.
I want to rule out any possible user errors, that is why I started the thread in the first place:)
I tried another guitar, maybe it is time to try other cables. 

TGuven

Update: On another forum, where a number of users also referred to the issue as "subjective", one guitar player mentioned the key word "stratitis" and asked wheteher the pickups are too close to the strings.
Well, I said "yes". Neck and bridge pickups are indeed positioned close to strings.
I will try lowering them.

TGuven

Update: Lowering the pickups did not make an obvious difference.
Furthermore, I compared the device with Neural DSP Archetype Gojira (a software based amp simulator). The Core does not seem to be able to handle a sustaining note as smoothly as Neural DSP; the note starts "oscillating" in a very artificial manner with the Core.

I really wanted this to be a user error of some sort; but unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case. With Neural DSP, the effect is not there.

TGuven

I have added a second link. This one compares the Core with Neural DSP.
I hope this will illustrate my point a bir more clearly than the previous example.

https://soundcloud.com/tolga-g/core-vs-neural-not-a-tune

I played a simple ascending phrase, ending with the note B on the 12th fret of the B string.

On the audio file, I play the phrase with the Core first. The moment I play the note on the 12th fret and hold it, (starts around O:O2), the note loses its whole "body". It sounds horrible. It is almost like the note itself is not there at all; instead, it sounds like an overtone is being produced, oscillates in an unnatural way and dies out.

When I play the same phrase with Neural DSP, that note at the end of the phrase stands out clearly; it vibrates and sustains naturally before fading out.




Brak(E)man

To my untrained ear I don't hear the overtone
but from what I can tell there's more compression involved in the last clip.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

TGuven

The Neural DSP patch I used has huge amounts of gain and pre boost on it. The compression is to be exptected.

By the way, I experimented with an analogue distortion in the loop of the Core. That feeling of oscillation disappeared immediately. I am now absolutely sure that it is the digital hi gain amp modelling aspect of the unit that is causing the problem. 

I then experiemented with a few other preamp models and came to the conclusion that the "X modded" model is particularly problematic with regard to what I am describing.

Fortunately, not all models have that problem and I think I will be able to find out something that will work for me.

sixeight

I seem to remember the X amps of the GT-1000 use some sort of crossover frequency splitting before adding gain. This gives a better note separation,  but there are some artifacts like you are describing.

I find the X amps sound really well on in-ears compared to other modelers (particularly Helix).

TGuven

I did not know that. Indeed, that explains a lot:)
I experimented with the "Maximum" amp and found it rather satisfactory in the hi-gain department.

aliensporebomb

#15
The "chorus" you're hearing on sustained notes I believe may be caused by sympathetic vibrations from adjacent strings sounding at the same pitch.    I've experienced this with nearly every high gain amp system in existence but some systems might be more pronounced than another.  Try not letting adjacent strings ring out by muting unwanted strings by muting them with your hands.  Does it still happen?   
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Chumly

Good point ASB! I've had all kinds of hash occur on higher gain settings due to various resonances with both analogue and digital processing. TGuven, do you have a few other guitars you can try, and have you tried any power supply noise suppression? Oh, and you might try turning off any noise gates, or otherwise adjusting noise gate parameters.
I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. - Richard P. Feynman

sixeight

Quote from: sixeight on July 04, 2021, 11:33:47 AM
I seem to remember the X amps of the GT-1000 use some sort of crossover frequency splitting before adding gain. This gives a better note separation,  but there are some artifacts like you are describing.

I find the X amps sound really well on in-ears compared to other modelers (particularly Helix).

To backup my story. A number of amps on the GT-1000 use MDP, multi dimensional processing. Search for MDP amps in the link below.

https://www.boss.info/nl/promos/gt-1000_ultimate_guide/

TGuven

Quote from: aliensporebomb on July 04, 2021, 02:32:12 PM
The "chorus" you're hearing on sustained notes I believe may be caused by sympathetic vibrations from adjacent strings sounding at the same pitch.    I've experienced this with nearly every high gain amp system in existence but some systems might be more pronounced than another.  Try not letting adjacent strings ring out by muting unwanted strings by muting them with your hands.  Does it still happen?

Thanks. I appreciate the response.
I am quite sensitive to empty/unwanted string noise myself. I do not let other strings ring when I am playing a solo phrase. It may happen unintentionally at times of course, but I generally  mute/damp all strings that I do not play at that moment. I even use a fret wrap/dampener at times. I rest the left hand index finger on the strings during vibrato whenever possible and I also use the inside part of my right thumb and the right hand in general for further muting.   
Furthermore, the fact that this is way more pronounced with Core's certain amp models is the key point here. The kind of effect I am referring to occurs even with analog preamps and I did experience it in the past. But it becomes untolerable (at least to my ears) with the X-Modded amp. I have not tested whether this applies to all "X" amps. 

PAH

Not really addressing your specific issue, but since you experience this with high gain, you can also try different settings on the 3 position gain switch in the amp block.  For example, try low on the switch and turn up the gain knob to compensate, or try high on the switch and turn down the gain knob to compensate.  This will change the character of the amp, but it might give you more options for addressing the problem you're having.

JiveTurkey

If you're that sensitive; I'd probably just ditch the idea of amp modeling altogether.

aliensporebomb

Another thought is I found that some DAW systems on computers do create a kind of choruses/modulated sound if monitoring is enabled and not if disabled.   I'd be curious how you are setting it up to monitor the sound.

In my case, usb cable to computer, monitors connected directly to the outputs of the modeler.   Then I disable monitoring in the DAW.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

TGuven

Quote from: aliensporebomb on July 05, 2021, 11:02:42 AM
Another thought is I found that some DAW systems on computers do create a kind of choruses/modulated sound if monitoring is enabled and not if disabled.   I'd be curious how you are setting it up to monitor the sound.

In my case, usb cable to computer, monitors connected directly to the outputs of the modeler.   Then I disable monitoring in the DAW.

That is indeed a very good point. Monitoring in the DAW can cause a chorus-like sound. That being said, I already took care of that problem. Furthermore, since the issue also appears on the recorded file...You get the idea.

TGuven

Quote from: JiveTurkey on July 05, 2021, 09:51:18 AM
If you're that sensitive; I'd probably just ditch the idea of amp modeling altogether.
Nice try. I am not selling it. Not yet:)

Mats Orbation

Has this resolved as of yet?

You should tell us about which and what guitar you use, especially if it has passive/active single coils, or simply,if this oscillation occurs with EVERY guitar you plug into it. High gain players often use active pickups like EMG and the like, regardless of humbuckers, or single coil variants. But I can't reach any of your soundcloud examples as they have been removed.

The main tell tale is that you hear it on other multifx modellers too, and I would know if you don't hear it too on IRL amps.

What can make havoc on high gain amp sims in any multifx, including Core and AxFX Ultra and neuro is:

1. Do you have current supply that is of the switched variant? That can make so called heterodyning effects if you connect it to a plethora of pedals and soundcard.
2. As others have said, the Core is a soundcard too, so make sure you have monitoring turned off.
3. Even if the sound turns harsh, turn off ALL speaker IR and compare to the amp sound in headphones only. Still there?
4. Yes, on a passive instrument with single coil pickups they can be too close to strings, but we already established that. Mind you, EMG needs to e placed as close as possible and have none of that "stratitis" problem, or MSP (magnetic string pull).

I tried to recreate on my Core but had difficulties hearing it (any) on the trail ends of the sustaining notes.