GK-3B pre-install questions

Started by stub, March 27, 2021, 10:00:32 AM

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stub

About 5 months ago, I got a new Ibanez fretless but the neck was bad. They were back-ordered, so the replacement just arrived. Now I'm ready to install the GK-3B.

With 5 knobs & a 3-way tap switch, it looks like the best location for the module is above the bridge. Seems fine for playing & access; but the module will stick out over the edge a bit.

I may skip the heavy steel mount and opt for using Sugru® to attach the module. I've used sugru for other guitar mounting tasks and it works well. Are there any thoughts or precautions about that choice?

I have some wiggle room as far as how close to mount the pickup to the saddles. Is there a "sweet spot" in terms of best dynamic response? I would think a little further away might be better for dynamics, but perhaps my intuition is wrong?

I could mount the pickup with Sugru® as well, but is there a good reason to use the included shims & double-stick tape?

Are there any aspects of the instructions or process that are different from what is in the little instruction booklet?

Thanks!!

Kevin M

I could be wrong, but I think the closer, the better.  I just did an install and, if memory serves me, 50mm is the recommended maximum distance to the bridge.  Mine was inside the max distance by just a bit. I used the double stick tape with no issues - did have to re-install a couple of times to get the right height and I didn't see any issues with finish.  However, that was only after a couple of hours being stuck on each time. My bass is a cheap one, so I'm not really concerned with the finish. For me, the pickup height was the one that seemed pretty critical to getting accurate response.

stub

Thanks, @Kevin M

I'll take extra care getting the height right and hopefully only have to do it once. I saw one tip to mark the position before removing the strings when doing the final placement. At any rate, I'd love to get it right and do it once. So I'll definitely plan & practice.

One dumb thing I did before reading anything, was I thought the little plastic indicators were how you adjusted the pickup spacing so I snapped off the little plastic post. Dumb. No harm-- at least it was on the other side, too.

gumtown

I did exactly the same thing with snapping the white plastic pole position indicator.
You have to loosen the screws first  :)
On all my GK-3B installs, I have placed the pickup as close to the bridge, and as close to the strings as possible.
This reduces string cross-talk.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

stub

Another argument for placing the pickup closer to the saddles is that the strings' distance from the pickup won't change as much when I play up the neck.

gumtown

Align the pickup center indentation between the A and D strings.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

stub

Thanks. It looks like with those positions squoze in all the way, the center line and plastic markers all line up as they should. The way forward seems pretty clear now.


Kevin M

Here's mine...notice the whiteboard marker dots still present (I later removed them using a qtip).  That helped me quite a bit.

stub

Thanks. That's useful. I'm gonna use post-its.

Once I work out the position and height of the pickup, I think I'll use sugru for the pickup, too. It'll be more of a pain if I need to remove/redo, but if I'm careful, it'll be reliable and permanent install.

Because the knob on the module will extend past the body, I ordered extra sugru to build out some protective "fins". If I'm artistic, it should look ok.

stub

As I started to position the pickup and work out the height, I'm seeing that I can get the height correct for the 1st & 5th string, but the 2-4 strings are further away from the pickup. In other words, the strings have a more curved radius than the GK-3B pickup.

What's the right approach to take here?

gumtown

Quote from: stub on March 31, 2021, 02:59:42 PM
As I started to position the pickup and work out the height, I'm seeing that I can get the height correct for the 1st & 5th string, but the 2-4 strings are further away from the pickup. In other words, the strings have a more curved radius than the GK-3B pickup.

What's the right approach to take here?

Align the pickup to the optimal height with the 1st and 5th strings, and the middle ones will need a little more gain in the GK setup menu.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

stub

Ah ok. Thanks.

I was a little bit tempted by that slick custom sugru job done by Gary Willis

https://garywillis.com/ask-willis-gk-3b-minimized/

He takes it out of the shell, snips off the unused 6th string (1st of 6), and blobs sugru around it. You have to click on the "missing" images, then you can see how the pickup was done. Hmmm. A little scary.

stub

Took the plunge. May regret it. Time (and tests) will tell.

It was cool to see the innards. Six tiny lil humbuckers, (now five). Impressive lil design. Surprisingly simple-- but clever and tiny.


stub

#13
One major gripe about the GK-3B is that the positioning of the individual pickup elements is so critical and the device really doesn't afford you any precision with adjusting this. Considering how sensitive these pickups are WRT string distance, it is no surprise that you hear so many mixed reviews about the GK-3B. It's likely the installations just didn't get quite get all the pickups lined up well.

I'm actually glad I opened it. Getting the pickups to align with the strings has taken quite a bit of finesse even when I can see them. Doing it blind would have been a real crap-shoot.




stub

I mounted the two sections of PCB onto a popsicle stick and angled them, both relative to string distance and distance from the saddles. This helped minimize the issues with spacing.

I've also used sugru to surround the pickups. The controls section is also now permanently mounted. And I tested to make sure the pickups are working as they should.

The final step is to mount the pickup(s) with sugru. This is a thing where I need to really get the position right.

I'm going to use a stack of post-its® near the ends of the pickup to set the height, mark the position. Then I'll remove the strings and set in the pickup. While the sugru is still pliable, I'll quickly and carefully put the strings back on and fine adjust the position. I'm a little worried that the magnetic pull between the strings and pickup might pull on it before the sugru sets. So after that stage, I'll loosen the strings while inserting some soft something to lift the strings up and away from the pickup.

I'm over-thinking it, probably, but since it is a permanent install, I want to get it as right as possible. If anyone is interested, I'll post a couple pics.

stub

I just put the last touches on. Pickup is mounted with the proper string-to-pickup distance on strings 1 and 5, and a little more on strings 2-4. The mounting of the pickup and control module is very secure/stable.The positioning of everything seems very good for access.

Because the controls extend over the edge of the bass, I used "Steel Stick" epoxy putty to make a bumper, and fastened it with sugru. Then added an additional "rail" of sugru on the edge of that. The bumper is pretty ugly, but I'll feel better knowing it'll protect that not-so-rugged plastic module.


stub

#16
[EDIT: I'm going to make some revisions based on my tests of the following day, and mark them with **]

My first tests are a mixed bag. Everything is working, so I'm relieved about that. But there are some major issues with the sound.

I set up the distance and sensitivity, but didn't spend lots of time tweaking it.

** I originally thought the crosstalk between strings was bad. But I was mistaken. I was seeing my RH fingers falling to rest on the next string as I plucked the target string (e.g., my index finger coming to rest on the 2nd string after I pluck the 1st string).

The tone I'm getting from the GK-3B pickups is not good. The big tracking issue is really bad with this bass and the GK-3B. (It is barely noticeable with my Godin xtSA guitar w piezo saddles).

** With a bit of tweaking I was able to get a reasonably good acoustic bass sim with the fretless sounds. Sounds best when played fairly quietly.

** Playing with the other electric bass models, and with the synths, it's not that pleasant sounding. I think it is the nature of having the pickups that close to the bridge, the dynamics seem a bit weird.


gumtown

Do you have the correct setting for pickup direction and the correct placement offset so the correct string is aligned with the pickup poles, so the correct string and pickup pole are matched together.

the two main settings to look at are

GK Pickup direction:
1) Normal
2) reversed


and

GK Pickup Position:
1) 4 String 1
2) 4 String 2
3) 4 String 3
4) 5 String Low 1
5) 5 String Low 2
6) 5 String High 1
7) 5 String High 2
8 6 String

Your 5 string options should be 4,5,6,7 depending on where the pickup (as it is referenced to the original 6 poles) how it is offset to the 5 strings (which end pole is not used).

Can you post a picture of your install ?
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

stub

I think I've got those settings right. Following the manual, it's 5STRLo2, and the labels and meters on the sensitivity display are all looking right.

With measuring the pickup to saddle, I'm not sure what points I should use (to the edge or to the center)





admin

#19
Quote from: stub on April 06, 2021, 04:08:51 PM
I think I've got those settings right. Following the manual, it's 5STRLo2, and the labels and meters on the sensitivity display are all looking right.

With measuring the pickup to saddle, I'm not sure what points I should use (to the edge or to the center)





center to center


https://www.slideshare.net/bensbm/revised-full-string-presentation-online


but your" G" PU seems too close,

PU too close = too low output


and "low B PU might be too far
PU too far  = much higher crosstalk

and Low B GK-3B PU  is very close to the Bridge Mag PU's Flux paths which may be negatively influencing the low B GK-3B output


Can GK-3 PU be too close to the bridge??
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13322.0

GK-3B Install manual says PU  not to exceed 50mm distance from bridge
https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/GK-3B_OM.pdf

stub

#20
First of all, thanks so much for all your help and advice!!!!!
Quote from: admin on April 06, 2021, 04:11:05 PM
but your" G" PU seems too close,

It's about 15 mm, and it is about 1.5 mm from the string. It was pretty normal when I was adjusting for sensitivity

Quote from: admin on April 06, 2021, 04:11:05 PM
and "low E PU might be too far

(I think you mean the low B, 5th string) which is 32 mm. The increased crosstalk would make sense.

Quote from: admin on April 06, 2021, 04:11:05 PM
and Low E is very close to the Bridge Mag PU's Flux paths which may be negatively influencing the low E GK-3B output

Yea, that makes sense, too. With the cord running along the bridge side (inside the sugru), my options for positioning seemed limited. I was trying to fit in that narrow gap between the bridge & the mag pu. The angle just seemed to help get the individual pickups to be under the strings.

If I have to remove it and reposition it, I can probably make a minor shift. However, digging out all 5 pickups from the sugru is probably not going to be possible without damaging them.

The upside is that this is an impressively versatile bass without the GK, so at least I have that fun to look forward to.

As I said, I'll mess with it more tomorrow, and see what I can figure out.

stub

OK, the cross-talk I was seeing had to do with my RH technique (which I corrected in my edits of an my earlier post).

I adjusted my string heights a little (via the saddles) and re-adjusted the sensitivity. I think it's pretty good now.

There's not much bottom on the electric bass models (perhaps just because of the nature of the GK-3B), but some EQ will help there, or blending the mags.

The synths don't do much for me. Some mix of the latency and squirrelly/glitchy response makes it seem less likely I'd ever use it in a gig setting. The dynamic synths is ok if it's not a ballad.

One thing that was especially fun was playing up the neck with the sitar patch. Something about the combination fo the fretless bass and that tone was super-gratifying.

OK, I think I'm out of the "buyer's remorse" woods!!  ;D

gumtown

Which Roland/Boss GK device are you running your bass into ?
Not sure if I asked that somewhere else, GR-55, SY-1000 ?

Just when you mentioned Sitar, the Sy-1000 has sitar modelling only in guitar mode.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

stub

Yes, the SY-1000-- I flipped over to gtr mode for a moment just to try that Sitar out. It was pretty fun! Glad I did. Flipped back to Bass Mode, and dug in with the Ac Bass sim. It's sounding pretty good now that things are dialed in.

I got my mag pickups in the signal path now. That's working fine.

Feeling pretty happy with it all.

The volume knob on the GK control unit is pretty easily nudged. I'll need to be conscious of not bumping it, and checking it.

stub

With this Ibanez 375 fretless, I ended up using the INVERSE for the PU PHASE. When I blended the mags with a modeled bass, I noticed a little more low-end when it was INVERSE. It wasn't a super-obvious choice (which surprised me), but I think it was the right one.

Is there any rhyme or reason for which makes or models of gtrs or basses require that inverse setting or is it pretty common?