Axon MKK ii as a MIDI controller for VSTI's problems

Started by pelvax, January 11, 2021, 04:14:13 PM

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pelvax

Hello!
I have been using Axon MKK ii for a long time with great satisfaction. Mostly for recording. So far I used it with older VSTi's, but never triggered articulations, controls of the instruments. All of this I done manually in the pianoroll window. Recently I refreshed some of my gear and found, that the newer VSTi's have much more  opportunities to play more naturally, thanks to really sophisticated controls. But those are designed for keyboard players. I don't play keys, but want to control those effects on the fly, as guitarist and I started researching how this is possible with Axon and at this point I ran into difficulties.
I know, that it's possible to use three triggers: expression pedal, switch pedal and wheel on the MIDI pickup. The wheel is unusable, despite I can assign it easily to any control, but my both hands are working. There are two left. The switch pedal is not really useful in this situation, since I don't want the pads or arpeggiator etc. during recording. It works fine just with keyboard or mallet type instruments, as a damper or when I want to switch quickly some momentary knob on the instrument. But in case of using blowing or bowing instruments (flute, violin for exaple), it would be nice if I could use the gradual effects, like volume, blowing force, portamento, articulations etc. Of course I know, that I definitely need to do some post-editing, but with the mentioned effects my the recording can be much more natural.
I tried to use expression pedal, but can't assign it to any controls. I have a Roland ex.pedal and it works with another things fine, but with Axon it doen't want to work. My Axon is pretty old, but works perfectly except the expression. I dug myself into manual, but honestly this is not a clear job. Everyone who has read it, knows what I am talking about. So, I can't make it work with Axon, nor when I use it on its own without a computer. I don't know why. Maybe I missed some important setting.
Anyway, I want to ask you, what's your experience in using guitarsynth, as midicontroller. Which type of gear can improve functionality. Extra foot MIDI controller? Which one? How can I connect it to Axon, or maybe just connection with computer or soundcard needed. I'm confused. Never use MIDI controller before. Or the answer is the breath controller? I don't know about this gear nothing.
So, all advice will be so much appreciated.
Thanks in advance!

Brent Flash


pelvax

#2
Oh, sorry!
Thanks for the add, Brent!

pelvax

I checked my expr. pedal on min level and max level in the Axon's menu. It says, check is ok. But no more information about expression pedal in menu. How can I activate it? How can I asign it to any controls?

gumtown

All i can suggest is using a midi monitor program to view the midi data sent from the Axon, and see if the EXP pedal is sending midi control data (cc#).

I use this
Bomes SendSx
https://www.bome.com/products/sendsx
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/


Dalai_llama

Hi Pelvax, and welcome to the group.

Your post has a lot of info, so let's break down what you really need to know:

Quote
I tried to use expression pedal, but can't assign it to any controls. I have a Roland ex.pedal and it works with another things fine, but with Axon it doen't want to work. My Axon is pretty old, but works perfectly except the expression.

To answer this core question, do what Gumtown suggested (use the free MidiMonitor from Snoize if you have a Mac). That way you can check if your pedal is faulty. Also, as you already know, there are some settings within the Axon for you to check. I don't have mine with me, so I can't tell you where to look just now, sorry.

Quote
Anyway, I want to ask you, what's your experience in using guitarsynth, as midicontroller. Which type of gear can improve functionality. Extra foot MIDI controller? Which one? How can I connect it to Axon, or maybe just connection with computer or soundcard needed. I'm confused. Never use MIDI controller before. Or the answer is the breath controller? I don't know about this gear nothing.

Now this is a very broad question, so it's hard for someone to respond in ways that will address your concerns. For instance, if you connect expression pedals to the computer and not to the Axon, that will require you to "route" the midi data from the pedal so as to modify the data stream coming from the Axon (and quite frankly I never tried that so I can't even tell if that works.)

I suggest you do a search for those specific items, such as "breath controller with midi guitar", to get some perspective on them. There's a lot of knowledge and a ton of very knowledgeable people here in the forum. For instance, right now there's a thread called "Are midi guitars there yet" that may provide a lot of insight to you.

This thread here may sound pretty basic for you, since you appear to understand the MIDI standard well. But there are many links with extra documentation and insights from other members that can give you some guidance:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2977.0

Good luck.

pelvax

Hi Dalai_llama!
Your answer is really helpful. Was hard to ask my questions, since those includes too many threads.
But now, thanks to you, I can research in more specific way. Yes, I have to dig in.
Thanks a lot!
Cheers
Pelvax

AlakaLazlo

Hello Pelvax,  Welcome to the board.

I've been using an Axon AX50 for years. It's a bit different to the MkII in that it has no internal sound banks and doesn't support a hold pedal (internally) but for the most part, it works the same.

First question: Do you have the Axon editor software?  If so, you can designate split points on the neck and in the pick control zones to different midi controller values that you may find marginally helpful. I believe you can make all those settings on the face of a MkII, but I don't have one so I'm not sure.

I have never been able to use the picking zone controller reliably, and I only have a single knob dedicated to synth output volume (programmed to CC7) so I opted for a more enhanced floor midi controller.  I chose the Behringer FCB1010 with the UNO chip mod (because it's relatively inexpensive, very versatile and easy to program with a 3rd party editor librarian), but you can really use any programmable midi controller to do the job.

In my system, I have everything connected directly to the midi interface and into the computer. I then create a midi track for the FCB1010 and route it out to the Axon to control things like program change, string config, etc., and I also route it to the VSTIs or hardware synths I'm controlling to act as a sustain pedal, modulation controller, filter cut-off, etc. I have different banks on the FCB to send different CCs for each pedal and different switch configurations depending on what I want to control. Alternatively, you could plug the floor controller directly into the midi in on the Axon and send the control data through it to your system.  But I prefer being able to route my controllers separately so they can be designated to work on different things as needed, sometimes simultaneously.

The trick with any such configuration, regardless of what midi instrument you intend to play, is that you need to program the Axon and/or foot controller to send either cc or pgm data on a channel that your synth is set to receive and the CC#s have to be set to what the synth expects to receive for that parameter.

For example, on the Axon, if you want the picking zone to control filter cut off frequency, you can set the editor pick control to "brightness" which sends CC74, but your synth has to be set to adjust the filter frequency on CC74.  If it is, great.  If not, then you have to either change the receive CC on the synth to 74, or if it's static, change the output CC on the Axon to whatever that midi CC is. (Or you can use a midi translator to convert one to the other if necessary)  The manual has the midi CCs listed in the appendix. My OB6 is on midi channel 6 and receives filter cut-off on CC45; so if I wanted the AX50 picking zone to adjust filter, I'd need to set the picking zone controller to "Effect Control 2" because - according to the editor manual - that sends CC45. 

FYI, most VSTIs have a midi learn function.  So you could set the pick controller value (or foot controller) to one of the universal values and just have the particular knob on the VST "learn" that controller.

Hopefully that will help.
Hexstainocaster, Fender Strat and Electric XII, Godin ACS, Axon AX50 - Moog One, IIP and Mini, SEM, Dot.Com/Moon/STG/FSFX 110, Cubase Pro, 2xMR816, HR824, NS10M, Komplete, Omnisphere/RMX/Trilian, Z3ta+, Analog Lab, Slate MTi2, ML1 and Everything Bundle, Social Entropy Engine, ESQ1, DX7, Lavalamp.

pelvax

Hello AlakaLazlo!
Thanks for the detailed desription. Very helpful. Today I was fighting with my Axon and the Roland EV-5 expression. They don't want to communicate with each other.  I tried everything in menues, made a factory reset, no way. Tomorrow will try the exp.ped with different units, but it was working one months ago, as I remember.
Anyway, I want to try the Behringer FCB1010 and get good news from you, that it works with Axon. Currently I'm hunting for someone among my friends, who has this, for try.
I have the Tascam US-122 soundcard and this has just one Midi in and out, thus I can't connect Axon and Behringer separately to computer, though your way is very interesting. Not clear completely, but I think when I'll see this in practice, will understand. The two track method is not unknown for me, since I use it in my DAW, when I'm working with VSTi's. Just now I use this during post editing manually, mean first I'm recording the main melody without articulations, then routing to this track one another and tweaking with needed controls with the mouse on the fly. Or I draw Midi control lines to pianoroll. Hope, that soon I can try Behringer or some different unit.
Now I would be content with working connection of Axon and exp.ped.
I don't use pick zones function, seems very uncomfortable for me at least, when I want to play something.
I copy and paste your post to a doc, for the future. Re reading needed several times.
Thanks!

pelvax

Problem solved with expression pedal. The Roland EV-5 has a small pot on the side. Theoretically it's for adjust the sweep of pedal. There is numbers, 1 to 10. I've used it a long time ago and forgot, that this knob has to stay at 0, not at 10. This is the starting point. 10 means no sweep, 0 is max. sweep. Confusing. Spend two evenings with fighting with this problem. Worth is, because at this time a dug into menu of Axon and now I know much more about unit.
Anyway, now I'm able to controll anything in VSTi's. But a new problem has arisen.
When I use it, say, for volume, I notice, that the change is not continuous, but intermittent with small steps.
Not overly, but still confusing. What causes this? Maybe I'm missing something in MIDI setup? And this occurs in both cases. When I'm using Axon on its own and with the computer.
Thanks in advance.
.