SY-1000 Bass Mode is surprisingly great

Started by aure, February 11, 2020, 11:50:30 AM

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chlorinemist

I'm looking forward to trying the bass mode with my new Cycfi Bass VI creation  :)




vanceg

Quote from: aure on February 27, 2020, 05:19:31 PM
What an interesting link, this is the first I'm learning about it. I'd love to build a bass around it. It seems like it would just pass as a GK since the frequency response is so flat.

It would work beautfully - The Cycfi are exacty what I'd use for individual string pickups for bass.   I've got them on my A-A Baritone guitar and I have had them on a E-C Bass and they worked great.   VG-99 and VB-99 both work well with it. I haven't tried the SY-1000 with a bass instrument yet but I'm planning a E-E 6 sting bass with cycfi speciically to use with the SY-1000.

stub

Please keep us posted, and share some demo audio if it's not too much trouble. Those cycfi pick-ups seem amazing.

Does the GK system have a good mode for that pickup?

My dream bass would be a fretted 5 string bass with a custom body set up with just the cycfi-13pin pickup close enough to the bridge to do proper modeling with the SY-1000 in bass mode. Also, a normal pickup in the "standard" position-- volume, master tone, and PU balance knobs. I'd need someone to build it for me. Oh, yea, and I'd need a bunch of money.

I've already got plans to put a GK-3B on my cheapo fretless. -- that bass has a bad neck, and the replacement was back-ordered. Should be here next month. It'll be weird and fun to hear how the SY-1000's bass mode behaves with the fretless thing.

chlorinemist

#28
Quote from: stub on March 03, 2021, 08:56:46 AM
Please keep us posted, and share some demo audio if it's not too much trouble. Those cycfi pick-ups seem amazing.

I don't have any Roland/BOSS gear atm but I have my eye on the SY-1000. I have always used a Spicetone 6Appeal and Eventide H8000 because that way I can actually do hex processing in series, since the Roland devices don't have hex outputs. But it just seems too sensible not to get one. I probably will soon.

Here's a demo I made with my current setup:

QuoteDoes the GK system have a good mode for that pickup?

I think most of the units have a "flat" mode, which would be perfect for the Nu which has an almost totally flat frequency response.

QuoteMy dream bass would be a fretted 5 string bass with a custom body set up with just the cycfi-13pin pickup close enough to the bridge to do proper modeling with the SY-1000 in bass mode. Also, a normal pickup in the "standard" position-- volume, master tone, and PU balance knobs. I'd need someone to build it for me. Oh, yea, and I'd need a bunch of money.

I have had good experiences just modding cheap guitars and installing all this stuff in them. This VI was originally a Squier Vintage Modified Bass VI. I had to learn some things like how to drill through metal but it was all pretty easy to do. The Cycfi Nexus system is fully compatible with GK now. Their CV knobs can be set to control GK functions and also send a variety of MIDI CC and PC messages.

admin

#29
QuoteI can actually do hex processing in series, since the Roland devices don't have hex analog outputs

a bit of a workaround is

* Use a GP-10 or SY-1000, either provide 8 USB Audio Channels output ( one per string+ Stereo Out)

* Use a third party multichannel USB Audio Interface with 8 Output channels ( Focusrite Scarlet 18i20

* Use a Mac computer, create an "Aggregate Core Audio device" with GP-10/SY-1000 as 8 channel USB Audio input, and Scarlet 18i20 as 8 Channel USB Audio Output

Use Rogue Amoeba Loopback to make the I/O connections
https://rogueamoeba.com/loopback/

(there is some minor latency added  - but it accomplishes net result of 8 Live Audio analog output channels sourced from GP-10/ SY-1000 for real time use with third party hardware


Not found a similar solution for Windows

chlorinemist

Quote from: admin on March 05, 2021, 08:29:43 AM
a bit of a workaround is

* Use a GP-10 or SY-1000, either provide 8 USB Audio Channels output ( one per string+ Stereo Out)

* Use a third party multichannel USB Audio Interface with 8 Output channels ( Focusrite Scarlet 18i20

* Use a Mac computer, create an "Aggregate Core Audio device" with GP-10/SY-1000 as 8 channel USB Audio input, and Scarlet 18i20 as 8 Channel USB Audio Output

Use Rogue Amoeba Loopback to make the I/O connections
https://rogueamoeba.com/loopback/

(there is some minor latency added  - but it accomplishes net result of 8 Live Audio analog output channels sourced from GP-10/ SY-1000 for real time use with third party hardware


Not found a similar solution for Windows


I'll have to look into that. Im going to be trying something similar out soon with Cycfi's upcoming pickup modeling plugin and placing it before 6Appeal.

I wonder if Roland has ever considered putting ADAT i/o on one of their guitar synths? That way you could just hook it up directly to an 8-channel AD/DA, no computers required. Seems like it would be a lot more straightforward

stub

Quote from: chlorinemist on March 05, 2021, 10:59:23 AM
I wonder if Roland has ever considered putting ADAT i/o on one of their guitar synths? That way you could just hook it up directly to an 8-channel AD/DA, no computers required. Seems like it would be a lot more straightforward

That's a nice idea. I wish that ADAT format had taken off more-- my impression is that it is quite resilient.

chlorinemist

#32
Quote from: stub on March 05, 2021, 03:19:15 PM
That's a nice idea. I wish that ADAT format had taken off more-- my impression is that it is quite resilient.

It is the most widely used digital i/o standard in pro audio to this day! AES is the most "pro" format, more robust (also much bigger) connectors, but it is about 100x more expensive than ADAT, and sounds exactly the same. So ADAT is still ubiquitous, it is standard on most audio interfaces, standalone ad/da converters, and multichannel fx processors. Optical cables are more sturdy than they might look, and if they fail they are cheap to replace.

So if hexaphonic fx processors adopted adat, all these devices would be 100% compatible and perfectly suited for the purpose. Like i could hook up an ADAT hex dsp processor straight to an Eventide H8000 via ADAT, and the strings would automatically be routed to ch 1-6 and the mono output to channel 7, with room for applying a mono-stereo effect.

Or, it could be a way to just plug an SY1000 straight into an audio interface, with no need for aggregate devices or drivers or 3rd party software or extra latency... it would just appear as additional regular inputs on the audio interface

stub

Quote from: chlorinemist on March 05, 2021, 03:47:44 PM
It is the most widely used digital i/o standard in pro audio to this day! AES is the most "pro" format, more robust (also much bigger) connectors, but it is about 100x more expensive than ADAT, and sounds exactly the same. So ADAT is still ubiquitous, it is standard on most audio interfaces, standalone ad/da converters, and multichannel fx processors. Optical cables are more sturdy than they might look, and if they fail they are cheap to replace.

So if hexaphonic fx processors adopted adat, all these devices would be 100% compatible and perfectly suited for the purpose. Like i could hook up an ADAT hex dsp processor straight to an Eventide H8000 via ADAT, and the strings would automatically be routed to ch 1-6 and the mono output to channel 7, with room for applying a mono-stereo effect.

Or, it could be a way to just plug an SY1000 straight into an audio interface, with no need for aggregate devices or drivers or 3rd party software or extra latency... it would just appear as additional regular inputs on the audio interface

I didn't realize how widespread their use is. Thanks, that's interesting to know. You're thoughts on how easily it could integrate make lots of sense.

Kevin M

Decided to get into the bass game with my SY1000 and put a GK3B on my Squier Jaguar bass (decent bass for its price point).  Installation wasn't too bad...had to remove the pickup a couple of times to add spacers, but not that big of a deal. I like some of the bass models I've heard so far.  It's really quite awesome having a 'second' device now just by booting up into bass mode.

chlorinemist

Quote from: stub on March 05, 2021, 09:19:25 PM
I didn't realize how widespread their use is. Thanks, that's interesting to know. You're thoughts on how easily it could integrate make lots of sense.

One example of a very widely available ADAT product that would integrate seamlessly with an SY-1000: the Behringer ADA8000/8200


Famously beat the $1000+ Lynx Aurora 16 in a blind shootout on Gearslutz. $300 new. Most studios already have one. ADAT ports would make this a solid option for expanding a GK synth's I/O at low cost to Roland (I'm assuming the reason they do not provide post-processing 13 pin outputs on any of their products due of the expense of the multichannel digital->analog conversion)

vanceg

Quote from: stub on March 05, 2021, 03:19:15 PM
That's a nice idea. I wish that ADAT format had taken off more-- my impression is that it is quite resilient.

Just before the VG-99 was released I was pushing for this one, alas.  I can see the logic behind going with USB on the SY-1000 and GP-10:  The individual string outpt feature is really designed for "reamping" rather than running single from one hex device to another.   But, yeah, I ADAT would have been a very good, essentially 0 latency way to get 8 channels of audio  out.

fokof

#37
Quote from: stub on March 05, 2021, 09:19:25 PM
I didn't realize how widespread their use is. Thanks, that's interesting to know. You're thoughts on how easily it could integrate make lots of sense.
Like it has been said , ADAT is VERY well implanted in Pro audio.
ADAT is a proprietary protocol though ( Owned by Alesis ) , so they would have to pay a licensing fee to use it , and Roland doesn't like that very much.


https://motu.com/products/avb/lp32

admin

Quote from: fokof on March 07, 2021, 09:09:46 AM
Like it has been said , ADAT is VERY well implanted in Pro audio.
ADAT is a proprietary protocol though ( Owned by Alesis ) , so they would have to pay a licensing fee to use it , and Roland doesn't like that very much.


https://motu.com/products/avb/lp32

Been wishing for a hex Pickup guitar with optical ADAT interface for years
Gumtown discussed this in 2016 here
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2588.msg133641#msg133641

Matteo Barducci

I was ranting for a VG box with ADAT out since forever.

There are small boxes that converts USB multichannel audio to ADAT and could be added to a pedalboard:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/usb-audio-interface/usbstreamer-box


IUnfortunately, SY-1000 requires proprietary drivers to implement multichannel audio over USB, so untile they release something for the Raspberry Pi community it will impossible to have this.
--

---> Matteo Barducci

stub

Quote from: Kevin M on March 06, 2021, 09:43:00 PM
It's really quite awesome having a 'second' device now just by booting up into bass mode.

So true! I was hoping this dual boot feature would get more "celebration". I think people who play both guitar and bass are pretty common, so it's a nice alternative to either having to choose between two devices an xG-xx and an xB-xx (that are essentially identical hardware with different firmware); or having to buy both.

Even putting aside all the synths, they did include a decent variety of models for both gtr and bass.


admin

#41
Quote from: stub on March 07, 2021, 09:58:20 AM
So true! I was hoping this dual boot feature would get more "celebration". I think people who play both guitar and bass are pretty common, so it's a nice alternative to either having to choose between two devices an xG-xx and an xB-xx (that are essentially identical hardware with different firmware); or having to buy both.

Even putting aside all the synths, they did include a decent variety of models for both gtr and bass.

Dual boot "Guitar Mode" or  "Bass Mode" devices

Roland GR-20
Roland GR-55
Boss GT-1000Core
Boss SY-1000

2pods

I think it was the stuff they left out from the VB99 that let it down as a bass processor.
Pretty much the same type of thing they left out from the VG99 on the Guitar side.

It's still great for both instruments. Just not as great as I thought it would be  ;)
Fender G5 Strat, PRS SE Santana/w TriplePlay

stub

I've got my GK-3B installed on my Ibanez fretless, and it's working pretty well.

The upright basses really read well if you adapt your plucking style and play lightly.

Blending the mags (which on this bass are excellent and versatile) with the models and FX is going to make this a pretty powerful rig.

The presets are pretty useless to me. I'm looking forward to building presets that are dry (without all that delay and reverb), dynamic (no limiters/compressors), and with tones of character. Lots of potential there.

I look forward finding those sweet spots where the low end comes from mags, and other qualities come from models, synths, etc. And the top end is more tasteful.

stuey99

So is using the SY-1000 for its synth engine possible when playing live?  As in straight to the PA/amp.  Or is the latency too great?

Quote from: admin on February 11, 2020, 05:28:17 PM

In regards to Guitar/ Bass to MIDI conversion   -"tracking speed is directly related to pitch."  always has / always will


the lower the pitch  = the longer the conversion time  = longer latency

30 years ago we would cheat,  - string up our Guitars with all high E strings to get the highest pitch = lowest latency, and then once its in MIDI domain, transpose down 3 octaves 

could still do same today

gumtown

Quote from: stuey99 on June 03, 2021, 04:53:36 AM
So is using the SY-1000 for its synth engine possible when playing live?  As in straight to the PA/amp.  Or is the latency too great?

The SY-1000 synth engine uses HRM type modeling, which does not involve pitch to midi detection, so the SY-1000 synth is virtually latency free,
so it is excellent for live to P.A. /Amp use.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

stuey99

Brilliant!  Thank you

Quote from: gumtown on June 03, 2021, 05:33:09 AM
The SY-1000 synth engine uses HRM type modeling, which does not involve pitch to midi detection, so the SY-1000 synth is virtually latency free,
so it is excellent for live to P.A. /Amp use.

kimyo

Quote from: stub on April 12, 2021, 09:48:10 AMThe presets are pretty useless to me. I'm looking forward to building presets that are dry (without all that delay and reverb), dynamic (no limiters/compressors), and with tones of character. Lots of potential there.
i haven't explored bass mode yet but i've just started trying to create a couple of electric bass patchs in guitar mode.  the fretless is particularly challenging.  have you developed any dry presets which i might start from?

stub

I'd just suggest building your own. You can start by making a signal path you like, but just turning everything off.

Find an inst model you like the general tone of. EQ it inside the INST section to get your basic tone. I'd suggest choose an amp outside the model, so if you want to insert some FX before the amp, you have that option. Pick the amp/cab that best gives you the bass sound you like.

I don't like compressors on my bass tone- I need all the dynamics. But I realize some people love that sound.

kimyo

Quote from: stub on July 10, 2021, 10:41:25 AM
I'd just suggest building your own. You can start by making a signal path you like, but just turning everything off.
if i may ask before heading down that road, did you ever try to create those types of presets you mentioned?  if so, were you satisfied with the results?

or is this something you haven't attempted yet?