Boss SY-1 - new polyphonic synth stompbox

Started by Mark Haydon, July 11, 2019, 12:22:50 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Smash

I'm not as bad as Phil Headless!!!  ;D

Interesting that my Youtube VG99 videos get 1 to 2k views after years but the GT1000 escapism has got 12k so far.

Brak(E)man

Quote from:  philjynx on July 17, 2019, 08:51:07 AM

On 2 & 3 - given that you can play the same note (pitch) on different strings how would a processor 'know' which string produced that note? Never one to miss the chance to say never, I'm going to say extremely unlikely.

I'd say no way , but not because it's not doable.
Different strings have different timbre , the same with the same note on different strings etc.
But there's not a demand for it,  that will justify the effort, time and money to develop.
The guitarist base is satisfied with a powerchord.
The big problem is #1 , 6 string polyphony is not solved yet by a long shot.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Headless68


Smash


Headless68

yes - not because I didn't like its sound, it was a lump to carry about with the remote & the interface was fiddly - and I couldn't read the display without my specs on & I can't gig in them
:-)

Smash


gumbo

Quote from: Headless68 on July 18, 2019, 11:13:39 AM
yes - not because I didn't like its sound, it was a lump to carry about with the remote & the interface was fiddly - and I couldn't read the display without my specs on & I can't gig in them
:-)

Don't worry...it won't be long before you're old enough to get away with that.....     :-*
Read slower!!!   ....I'm typing as fast as I can...

slimefuzz


Kenmac

I watched this demo last night on YouTube from Dawsons Music (Tom Quayle) and I think this *may* be the first video where you can clearly see chords being played on the guitar and output through the SY-1.


"Let them brush your rock and roll hair."

Brak(E)man

Quote from: Kenmac on July 20, 2019, 09:19:31 AM
I watched this demo last night on YouTube from Dawsons Music (Tom Quayle) and I think this *may* be the first video where you can clearly see chords being played on the guitar and output through the SY-1.



The chords sounds exactly as crappy and mushy as on SY-300
All chords beyond 5th or a maybe a min3 or maj3 sounds very off.
The worst , all chords with any 2ds are complete mush.
And  beyond those intervals , no one can travel without gas masks on.

And what bothers me with all these testers is that they refer to the "tracking" as
if it where midi. It seems really clueless imho.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

Brak(E)man

swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

chrish

Quote from: Brak(E)man on July 20, 2019, 11:56:56 AM
The chords sounds exactly as crappy and mushy as on SY-300
All chords beyond 5th or a maybe a min3 or maj3 sounds very off.
The worst , all chords with any 2ds are complete mush.
And  beyond those intervals , no one can travel without gas masks on.


Roland Corp needs to be honest with the tracking issues in the products that they sell. They did the same tracking ad hype thing with the pitch to midi guitar synths and now they are doing it their 1/4 "polyphonic" guitar synth products.

The crazy thing is they had success with very accurate polyphonic  tracking with the VG's and analog GR300 but that tech is not widely accepted by guitar players because of some aesthetic thing with the hex pickup and machine complexity?

Its about sound.

arkieboy

Quote from: Headless68 on July 18, 2019, 11:13:39 AMI couldn't read the display without my specs on & I can't gig in them


For the last 10 years I've needed to have my glasses perched on the end of my nose unless I'm sat at a desk.  So un-f*cking rock and roll :-(
Main rig: Barden Hexacaster and Brian Moore i2.13 controllers
Boss SY1000/Boss GKC-AD/Boss GM-800/Laney LFR112

Other relevant gear: Line 6 Helix LT, Roland GR-33, Axon AX100 MkII
Oberheim Matrix 6R, Supernova IIR, EMu E5000, Apple Mainstage, Apple Logic, MOTU M4

aliensporebomb

Quote from: Smash on July 17, 2019, 05:52:59 AM
I'm not as bad as Phil Headless!!!  ;D

Interesting that my Youtube VG99 videos get 1 to 2k views after years but the GT1000 escapism has got 12k so far.

My experience is my VG-99 specific videos don't have huge view counts except in a couple of instances:

Patch Demos:
Roland VG-99 Ship Horn  19,170 views
Roland VG-99 Crystal Shimmer 1,559 views
(big discrepancy!)

Tunes:
Atmos 6,530 views
Emperor 3,649 views
Before Sleeping 1,565 views
Distant Warning 1,226 views

Tangential Videos that are basically VG-99 demo videos:
Strymon Big Sky Demo (Basically a VG-99 demo with extra stuff) 10,645 views
Ernie Ball M-Steel Strings (basically a VG-99 demo video) 10,341 views

Interesting.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

Smash

"OK Google - how do I make my guitar sound like a ship horn? . . . . Result!!"  ;D

hippietim

Quote from: Brak(E)man on July 20, 2019, 11:56:56 AM
The chords sounds exactly as crappy and mushy as on SY-300
All chords beyond 5th or a maybe a min3 or maj3 sounds very off.
The worst , all chords with any 2ds are complete mush.
And  beyond those intervals , no one can travel without gas masks on.

And what bothers me with all these testers is that they refer to the "tracking" as
if it where midi. It seems really clueless imho.

You're pretty much spot on.  In fact, I think when you get to complex/dissonant chords the SY-1 may actually be a little worse than the SY-300.  When the SY-1 can't handle things you get this fluttering sound (it actually reminds me a little of the delay trails of the Tera Echo).

admin

Quote from:  hippietim on August 13, 2019, 10:28:54 AM
I posted this over in the digital and modeling forum as well.  Here's my initial feedback on the SY-1.  This is gonna be a random collection of bullet points. I've added some comparisons to other units where it popped into my head.

  • Strings are pretty big sounding and are fairly warm.  They sound better to me than the EHX Synth9.
  • Bells sound interesting and are nice when blended a little back behind a regular guitar part.
  • One trick I stumbled on with the Bells on a couple of variations is that they sound cool for percussive stuff when you set the depth way down. Strumming muted chords over the fretboard is very cool. A couple of the Bass variations did this well too.
  • Pads are ok but they suffer from the limitations of this sort of technology. One glaring example is playing a slow arpeggiating chord sequence (the intro to Stairway to Heaven for example). What I'd like to happen is what happens with a keyboard or MIDI guitar - each note starts it's own attack and release cycle and they blend - basically it is cumulative.  With the SY-1, each note you pick restarts the attack and release cycle for all the notes. The EHX 9 series stuff seems to share this problem as well as the SY-300.  Of course, this applies to all of the sounds - not just pads.
  • Leads - some are quite good, some not so much. No surprise there. Tracking is pretty good - if you have tracking issues it could be because of the attack for a particular variation so there's not a lot you can do other than maybe slow down a bit or choose a variation that has a faster attack.  Overall, more useful than the Synth9. The Fractal Synth block can do a lot of what this can do with considerably more control and programmability as long as you're ok with mono.
  • Bass - lots of cool stuff here - much more fun than the Synth9. Again, the Fractal Synth block can do a lot here as well.
  • Organs. Holy crap. These suck. Some slightly better organ tones can be had from the SY-300. The EHX 9 series models with organs pretty much crush Boss SY pedals for organs. One of the biggest problems with the SY organs is they're stupid - they don't account for the fact that an organ can't really bend notes. While the EHX stuff will bend an organ note, it just seems smarter about it and doesn't bend notes when you hammer on or slide into a note. So doing a common bluesy thing like playing a minor 7 chord and hammering the major 3rd will very often bend on the SY but not on the EHX stuff. Similarly, if you slide a few frets into a chord the SY may make a bendy mess of things where the EHX stuff won't.
  • The inability to have better control of the attack and release is a bummer.  There is some limited control over the attack but not really what you'd want to do nice swells. The EHX Synth9 has similar limitations. The SY-300 can do a bit better here - you've got a lot more control.
  • One of my main gripes with the SY-300 is that there is a harsh white noise sound that is difficult to dial out of sounds that are more complex which is most sounds beyond a sine wave. The SY-1 suffers from the same problem,  i was expecting this and could hear it some of the early SY-1 demos. I must admit that this drives me nuts. It's tough to filter out such that tracking isn't adversely impacted. Pick attack is harsh at times as well - I get better results using my fingers on my picking hand instead of a pick.
  • Like the SY-300, the SY-1 stumbles on complex chords. For example, an Ebmaj7 chord at the 6th fret.  Sometimes they can handle it, sometimes you get the warbles. At least with the SY-300 you could divide up note ranges between the three oscillators so no single oscillator has to contend with all of the notes at once. The results with EHX 9 series pedals varies.
  • Use your neck pickup. Because harmonics. I really notice this with bass sounds. If you have an SY, try this with a gritty bass patch. Start with your bridge pickup. Play an E on the 4th string on the 2nd fret, then 5th string 7th fret, and finally 6th string 12 fret. You most likely heard a B note as well on the 4th and probably 5th string but not likely on the 6th string. Now do it with your neck pickup. The B is gone. There are two things at play here, the strings themselves and the pickup positions. The plain strings - 1st, 2nd, 3rd - don't have anywhere near the problem here. What's happening is the 3rd order harmonic (octave + 5th) is coming in strong enough when you're in the bridge position on the thinner wound strings to actually get the pedal to generate a strong output for that note so the B note is much more forward than it should be. If you read articles on doing pitch detection for guitar, this problem comes up pretty quickly. The Boss SY units seem more susceptible to this than the EHX 9 series. The Fractal pitch detector is smarter so the Synth block does better.
  • If you have an SY-300, the SY-1 does not offer anything at all other than being smaller.
  • If you don't have an SY-300 and like the SY-1, get an SY-300 - it is much more useful.
  • I've got a Meris Enzo that I haven't had time to mess with much - when I get a chance I'll do some comparisons with the SY stuff.

and need to compare with the Mooer GE300

The GE300's three voice Synth has many controls - very few decent examples online with Youtube - but I found the GE300's Organs sound very good   

 

hippietim

You can really hear the Tera Echo like fluttering in Tom Quayle's demo around the 13 minute mark.  In that case it's almost a cool effect but if you wanted clean notes it ain't happening.  And during the organ demo starting at 14.20 or so you can hear bends in the organ sounds that are out of place.

Bill Ruppert

Tim do you have these Synth9 next to the Sy1 For your comparisons?
I ask because I have both in front of me now and have very different results then your comparisons between the two.

hippietim

Quote from: Bill Ruppert on August 13, 2019, 01:21:53 PM
Tim do you have these Synth9 next to the Sy1 For your comparisons?
I ask because I have both in front of me now and have very different results then your comparisons between the two.

I actually don't.  I didn't like the Synth9 much when I had it.  While I had the Synth9, I did have the SY-300 already and I did compare them.

Just curious, what results are you referring to?  All I really said was that I think the SY sounds better than the equivalent on the Synth9.

Bill Ruppert

Tim I thought you must be going by a memory as I have very different results sonically with both the SY-1 and Synth9 in front of me in my studio.

Let me first start off saying I love the Sy-1, the Sy-300, the C4 synth and the Enzo. I even love the Digitech Dirty Robot that is a fuzz with filters.
They are my hobby and I am into all of them.

The SY-1 has tons of bells and whistles like hold and a bunch of presets.
BUT sonically or sound wise it sounds very constricted or strident.
Its like the bottom is not there and the top is shaved off leaving this mid based signal that feel like its coning down a pipe or hose.
It feels like its pushed back from the ears.
After about 5 or 10 minutes listening to it I have to turn it off. Its really irritating.
I could not EQ out the footprint. I tried

The Synth9 is completely different. Its sound is full and even and a easy to listen to.
The OBX wave form IS a Oberheim wave form. I know it is as I made it.
The sounds are much fuller. Its a easy A/B test
If I had to record a synth part I would grab the Synth9.

I found the bass sounds in the SY-1 not very usable to lay down a mini Moog bass part.
They are all sounds you would play one note, hit the hold and play lead guitar over.
Lack of filter envelopes makes it so.
Maybe you had a bum Synth9, I dont know.
Bill

gumtown

Probably why my SY-300 sits in a cupboard unused most of the time.
Can get some interesting sounds from it, but after a while I found myself somehow "irritated" by it after extended use.

Quotehe SY-1 has tons of bells and whistles like hold and a bunch of presets.
BUT sonically or sound wise it sounds very constricted or strident.
Its like the bottom is not there and the top is shaved off leaving this mid based signal that feel like its coning down a pipe or hose.
It feels like its pushed back from the ears.
After about 5 or 10 minutes listening to it I have to turn it off. Its really irritating.
I could not EQ out the footprint. I tried
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

aliensporebomb

I think part of the reason the SY-1 doesn't really do it for me is the fact that it's just a bog standard mono out.  I've said this before.   At least with the synth 9 it's got a couple of outputs that's kind of a mix of synth out and normal out.  Meris Enzo is another device of interest.  I'd buy them all if I could.  I already have too many noisemakers!
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

hippietim

Bill, it could be that I need to give the Synth9 another whirl.

One of my biggest issues in general with the 9 series pedals is that so many of the sounds end up sounding q like a POG. IOW, they may get the attack right but there ends up being a sameness to the sounds.

But more than anything, I'm tired of being nickel and dimed by EHX with the 9 series pedals. They're essentially the same pedal over and over. And I really could make use of most of them for a sound or two at least. But they're useless in a live setting - the lack of programmability really diminishes their value to me considerably.  This comes up pretty regularly on forums. And as you know, they just released a new Bass9 pedal. So they're not done milking customers for another $225.

chrish

Quote from: gumtown on August 13, 2019, 06:04:58 PM
Probably why my SY-300 sits in a cupboard unused most of the time.
Can get some interesting sounds from it, but after a while I found myself somehow "irritated" by it after extended use.
with the sy300, I have to deeply cut the high end freqs on the global eq as well as delays and reverbs in order to tolerate it. Best for ambient clouds.


I actually did try to post the 99 ambient patches from the unit I sold but apparently the file size was too big to post.