Is WIRELESS GK3 PICKUP possible?

Started by Don Juan de Marco, August 04, 2010, 11:33:51 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Don Juan de Marco

any ideas on how to do it?

DctN

I hope is possible because, the only problem that i have when i play my vg is the cable...

TheGuitarPlayer

It's totally possible, the problem is that it's not practical in the slightest.

bob e

Speaking for myself only, of course, I ask "When did practical or simple become a concern?"

Please, explain how it can be done.

MIDIme

Don Juan de Marco

I heard you can do it by MIDI... But my question is how? What are the names of those equipments? And a Step By Step guide on how to do it.

TheGuitarPlayer

Well, first you would need a wireless transceiver that's operates on the spectrum available for use by Joe Average.  It would need to have enough bandwidth to transport seven independent audio streams without lossy audio compression, plus a little bit more for the control switches.  Then you would need someway of multiplexing the audio streams and the control changes into one wireless stream, then de-multiplexing it on the other end.  Finally, you would need a power source capable of powering both the guitar, and the wireless transmitter.

I'd estimate that any solution, if even possible on the unlicensed spectrum, the requirements in terms of both power and cost would be prohibitive.

And no, it can't be done with MIDI.  MIDI is fundamentally different to what the VG-99 does.

Elantric

#6
I completely agree with the post above, TheGuitarPlayer has summed up the hurdles and design constraints very well.

But I suspect there are a few secret labs currently working on such a system, but running into the the limitations of physics and FCC legislation. When I do the math, a 7 channel wireless rig with the
Mux/demux and wireless transfer end to end over wi-fi  - it would add at least 20 milliseconds latency, and most Roland VGuitar system users are extremely concerned with not adding more latency to our rigs. Plus such a system would have to be priced more than the VG-99.

musicman65

Ok...here's a way. Get 12 wireless guitar transmitter/receiver pairs to handle 6 individual strings, 1 normal guitar signal, 4 switches, and 1 gk potentiometer. Attach all 12 transmiters to your guitar strap and use a RMC breakout box to split the signals out to the transmitters. Glue it to the back of the guitar. Use another breakout box to rejoin the signals from the receivers and that should let you roam about with complete freedom!

...of course your guitar will be 10lbs heavier and Duracell will become your sponsor. I am not sure anyone makes wireless devices with enough separate unlicensed channels but maybe they do.

Good luck!  ;D

Bill in TN


onemoreguitar

#8
Supposedly RackVax is working on wireless 13pin.  I messaged the guy who runs the company and he says it's doable, but their unit is a little ways off.  I believe they already have a proof of concept unit.  A little ways from prototype, but the last I spoke to them was around the Dec/Jan so I'm not sure if they've made any headway yet.  

sixeight

With wireless, you can do 12 channels easily and even more, but not with the cheaper units. You need the professional units, usually the top line, which is most expensive. So far I don't see a workable solution with the current bandwith of wireless units.

Hennisdk

Hey Guys

I know this subject is only of dreams.

But check out this wireless transmitter for MIDI from M-Audio

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MidAir.html

Makes me think that going wireless can be possible!!!

Maybe we should contact them and here what they have to say about bringing a wireless GK system.

Cheers

Hennis

Ibanez CT Series (Very Old)
Ibanez EDR470 Ergodyne - Cosmic Black (GK-3 PUP)
Epiphone Les Paul (Zakk Wylde)(GK-3 PUP)
Takamine EG523SCB (Warm sound with 12 Gauge Strings)

Line6 Spider IV 15 amp
Studio Monitors for VG-99

Roland VG-99
BOSS DS-1 Pedal
Sennheiser Wireless Guitar System

Brent Flash

Quote from: Hennisdk on October 29, 2010, 11:48:55 PM
Hey Guys

I know this subject is only of dreams.

But check out this wireless transmitter for MIDI from M-Audio

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MidAir.html

Makes me think that going wireless can be possible!!!

Maybe we should contact them and here what they have to say about bringing a wireless GK system.

Cheers

Hennis


What comes out of a 13 pin guitar is not MIDI. Sorry, won't work.

paults

Any of the companies who are currently marketing wireless stereo headphones/headset mic combo units have the technology to do wireless GK.  One of them, or Roland could do it - if they think it will be a marketable enough product. 

There are also products that multiplex up to 16 analog signals through a single XLR cable. If that multiplexed signal can be run through a conventional wireless mic, you're prety much there. 

Line 6 has hinted about wireless variax hardware for a future generation of their products. Maybe Roland will do wireless GK to compete.   

musicman65

It would take 7 or more channels most likely. Multiplexing is an option but encoding/decoding 6 full range analog signals and vol/s1/s2 would be a challenge. I would think latency would be a big issue. Yes, a single cable can carry a large ammount of high speed data but most data rf technologies aren't as capable without having a delay. The digital wireless headphones I've tried have a delay that wasn't good for monitoring in real-time.

Line6 bought a company that is a pioneer in low-latency digital wireless. Lets hope they come out with a multi-channel solution. Roland isn't even a player in that market so I doubt we'll see a solution from them.


We can always hope...

Musicman65

vanceg

Quote from: paults on October 30, 2010, 05:51:17 PM

There are also products that multiplex up to 16 analog signals through a single XLR cable. If that multiplexed signal can be run through a conventional wireless mic, you're prety much there.  

That's true, but those 16 multiplexed signals take about as much bandwidth to transmit as...well....16 channels of audio.  Standard wireless mics can deal with one channel of audio. You'd still need much, much, MUCH more bandwidth to get that multiplexed signal to be transmitted wirelessly.

Yes, the technology exists - but the point is that there isn't a market for such a device.  We really would really need to have either 7 distinct channels of mono audio being transmitted using low cost wireless hardware (which would produce interference problems of it's own) or we'd need to multiplex that signal, digitize it and then transmit it using much higher end wireless gear.  I can't imagine this item costing anything under $3000 at the moment.  Not even with the economy of scale manufacturing many units.

It could be done, though!

Vance

Hennisdk

Quote from: Brent Flash on October 30, 2010, 02:42:55 PM
What comes out of a 13 pin guitar is not MIDI. Sorry, won't work.

Yip, I know midi is different from GK setup, was just thinking, might be a step in the right direction.

Ibanez CT Series (Very Old)
Ibanez EDR470 Ergodyne - Cosmic Black (GK-3 PUP)
Epiphone Les Paul (Zakk Wylde)(GK-3 PUP)
Takamine EG523SCB (Warm sound with 12 Gauge Strings)

Line6 Spider IV 15 amp
Studio Monitors for VG-99

Roland VG-99
BOSS DS-1 Pedal
Sennheiser Wireless Guitar System

DctN


sixeight

It should be possible using the regular wifi network. It should have plenty of bandwidth for 6 audio channels. I believe some manufacturors are already using regular wifi for wireless systems (line6?) But having 6 beltpacks will make a heavy guitar strap...

musicman65

Standard Wifi technology as it stands is not suitable due to latency and the fact the ethernet buffers and retries on errors. You would have bits of your sound delayed and re-sent radomly. Also there are too many wifi devices that could interfere. My android phone could easily jam a players signal as I walk in the club.

Also six channels is all you can get with no overlaps and then you would have nearly 100% chance that something would interfere since the signals would span the entire 802.11g bandwidth.

I suspect line6 is using a connectionless streaming protocol designed in-house to achieve digital wireless.

bd in tn

sixeight

Line6 are using the ISM-band, according to this whitepaper:
http://line6.com/pdf/Line%206%20Wireless%20microphones%20Whitepaper.pdf

See this section - it looks like they are in the same band:
QuoteLine 6 digital wireless microphone systems operate in ISM bands. These bands do not require a license, and are free from high powered interference such as broadcast TV.

   As a result they are also free of geographical restrictions and can operate on all channels worldwide
without the need to determine what commercial broadcast TV channels are operating nearby.

   They do, however, have to coexist with other users of these bands. In the 900MMHz range, this typically
includes some cordless telephones and other low power remote applications. The 2.4GHz range also includes WiFi and Bluetooth communication. But since all of these devices are transmitting data as opposed to analog audio, the spectrum can be effectively shared with multiple devices.   Unlike analog transmission, digital data is coded for the specific recipient of that data and all other data is ignored.  This also applies to WiFi communication, which can support dozens of computers all in the same room without worry that one will receive information intended for another

musicman65

Did a little reading on the Line6 digital wireless and it just might be suitable for a 13pin application one day. Since they make a hex pickup guitar, maybe one day they will offer something. Their rack mount receiver is already multi-channel so we just need a transmitter with 9 channels for 6 strings, s1, s2, and GK volume. They do use ISM like wifi but not the same protocol. Latency is a constant 4ms which would have same effect as being 4 feet further from your amp using a chord.

bd in tn


jeremysdemo

#21
Hey guys, new here, but this discussion is what brought me...

Still nothing from RackVAX.

I did a bit of research about the pin assignments for this, we don't REALLY need 13 signals to be transmitted, we could get by with as little as 6.
the first 6 pins are the only relevant audio data related to the midi notes besides the 8th which is synth Volume (but which can be set up in advance or changed in real time with the use of midi pedals or midi control tracks) the other pins are program change +1 or -1 (which again can be done without the pick up) the last two pins are Volume +1 or -1.(also able to be programs or set by another midi device.

SO what we NEED is a transmitter that can send 6 mono audio signals on different channels to either the Line6 receiver mentioned or one that is similar and something to supply power to the pickup (if it even really needs power to work the pickups?) I mean the pickups on guitars don't need power unless they are active pickups....my guess is the power that is supplied to the GK via the 13pin chord is for the led display and whatever power is needed to send the program changes and other commands, if we are strictly talking using the AUDIO ONLY from the pickup the rest is unnecessary for a "wireless" application of the pickup.

Nady also makes an 8 simultaneous channel mic receiver
http://www.publicaddresswarehouse.com/page-nady-u81-hs.html
but I don't know what the delay on them is and interference it may get, if it compares to the digital line6 option or not.

But in theory you could take apart 6 of those transmitters set them all to different frequencies and put them in one chassis with 6 pv batteries...it may be a bit heavy and awkward, but it would work.
Then all you have to do is get the audio signals from the receiver and route them back into a 13 pin chord to their proper pins.....

little side note* if you where using this on an acoustic guitar (I know it is problematic) you could hide the transmitter boards inside it!  :D

keep shinin

jerm  8)




Elantric

#22
QuoteThen all you have to do is get the audio signals from the receiver and route them back into a 13 pin chord to their proper pins.....

. . . . .  and have zero desire for children, because lugging around 6 RF transmitters inside  your axe will surely make you sterile.

jeremysdemo

#23
Quote from: Elantric on February 22, 2011, 03:32:21 PM
. . . . .  and have zero desire for children, because lugging around 6 RF transmitters inside  your axe will surely make you sterile.
I hope that is not true since I already have one for my vocal headset, one for my regular guitar signal, one for my Sure in ear monitor system....a midi one for my AXIOM25 and GNX4....not to mention all the guys in the audience texting and calling people.....what can I say I just don't like WIRES!!!!!!

Are the LIne6 systems RF? I thought they were doing something different with the digital wireless receiver in the 2.4GHz range? that is the same as the 2 wireless phones in my house...been using them for years and the swimmers are still jumping!  ;D

What we need is ONE transmitter that sends on 6 different channels at once...would that make your balls feel safer if it was in one box?
imagine how many other unauthorized things are transmitting through you right now.....I don't like to think about that.... :-X

I would have replied back sooner but kept being rejected by the verification, how am I supposed to know Fenders first name I am an Ibanez man! j/k leo....

keep shinin

jerm  8)



Elantric

#24
Yes - the Line 6 gear at 2.4GHz is considered "UHF" RF frequency



Realize some folks are more sensitive to RF than others.

me - i can not wear a bluetooth headset for more than 2 minutes before my brain feels like its in a frying pan.