Best practice for MIDI routing with the MIDX-20

Started by MountainCraft, May 30, 2019, 12:30:23 PM

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MountainCraft

Things I plan to connect together:

MIDI Devices/Channels/Purpose

XR-18 (RX only)
   ch 1      1-64      PC      Snapshots (scenes)
   ch 1      0-31      CC      Channel/Buss/Mains Faders
   ch 2      0-31      CC      Channel/Buss/Mains Mutes
   ch 3      0-31      CC      Channel/Buss/Mains Pans
   Txt based OSC  (sysex?)          I have no clue about this

Whammy DT (RX only)
   ch (1-16)   1-78      PC      F/X select F/X Setting
   ch (1-16)   0-127      CC      Exp Pedal Position

MS-3 (TX only - MIDI Host)
   ch (1-16)   0-127      CC      (Host - Transmitted)
   ch (1-16)   1-128      PS      (Host - Transmitted)

GP-10 (RX only)
   ch 1      0-98      PC      Patch Selection (patch 1-99)
   ch 1      ?      CC      Bank Select
   ch (0-10)   1-31      CC
   ch (0-10)   64-95      CC

GP-10 (TX)
Note, velocity, etc. to DAW or external MIDI sound module/device (ch 1-16)

Other things I might control
Roland JV-880 (MIDI compliant)
Boss Dr Synth (MIDI compliant)
Roland R-70
Alesis D4
Meris Enzo (I'm told it can be done)    PC?      select preset
DAW/Virtual instruments      PC/CC/etc
Electronic Drums (Roland/Alesis/?)


Here is what I hope to accomplish...  I need help figuring out how to best route/connect things..

I want to be able to use the MS-3 to send patch change and CC info to the XR-18/DAW, GP-10, Whammy DT, and future MIDI devices (like the enzo)

There will be three stereo feeds to the XR-18 (from my TRIO+, GP-10, and MS-3)..

I need one of the CTL jacks on the MS-3 to be dedicated to 2 footswitches for the purpose of Bank up/down

I have an EV-30 pedal that I hoped to use to simultaneously control the volume of both the MS-3 and the GP-10, but I also want an expression pedal for the purpose of controlling MS-3 F/X, Wah, etc. and also to send PC messages  (via 'range of CC' in the MS-3) to the Whammy DT to select how much pitch chift or detune I want, etc...  There's not enough  CTL jacks for all of that on the MS-3, so I may have to do the volume control thing a different way..  Perhaps by sending CC messages to Faders in the XR-18 for each of the stereo pairs, but that's not a very elegant solution as it only changes mix volumes, and doesn't affect playing dynamics the way a volume pedal on the front end of the signal does..

I need two more footswitches for the GP-10, but maybe reassigning the patch change footswitches or the buttons on the GK control can do that? (I'll still be able to do patch changes via one or the other and the MS-3)..

I will have two pedal boards, one with the GP-10, the MS-3, the TRIO+, the MIDX-20, and one or (possibly 2 if I can make it all work) expression pedals, as well as some control footswitches..  The 'lid' for that Pedal board will be the second pedal board on which the Whammt DT, the Enzo, the EHX '9' pedals and everything else will be..  The plan is to be able to use either board standalone, with only a 110v power cable, send/return cables, and a MIDI cable between them... each board will have it's own CS-7 power supply and a 1x4 MIDI thru box..

So, besides help figuring out how to arrange everything so that I can do the volume pedal thing as well as the additional control of the Whammy DT, any external sound modules, and the MS-3, I'm wondering how best to connect the MIDX-20 between the MS-3, the GP-10 and the MIDI thru boxes..

With all this going on, should I connect the MS-3 to the MIDX-20 using a USB cable on the UPR port (I will be connecting the GP-10 to the LWR one), and then connecting the MIDI DIN out of the MIDX-20 to the input of the MIDI Thru box and then out to the other board, the XR-18 etc., or should I use the MIDI DIN output of the MS-3 and connect that to the MIDI DIN in of the MIDX-20, and then the MIDI DIN output of the MIDX-20 to the MIDI Thru box and on to the other board/world, or should I Connect the MIDI Thru in between the MS-3 and the MIDX-20?

Also, I have a conflict on MIDI Channel "1" with more than one device having dedicated uses for that channel...  Am I correct in understanding that the MIDX-20 can 'remap' MIDI channels so that I can send MIDI PC from the MS-3 on 2 different MIDI Channels, and it can send those instructions to two different controlled devices each on the same channel?  If so, how does that affect all this cable routing?

(PS..  The XR-18 can pass MIDI from it's MIDI DIN ports to a computer DAW via it's USB cable so for MIDI virtual instruments or whatever, all I need is to feed a single MIDI cable from the pedal board to the XR-18... I think)..

Finally, can the MS-3 pass tap tempo info to the GP-10 via the MIDX-20/MIDI?

Too many moving parts at the moment, and I'm getting a little frazzled trying to plot a course..   So I want to at least start with how best to route the MIDI from the MS-3 through the MIDX-20 and Thru Boxes, and then start trying to tackle all the footswitches/expression pedal stuff...

I can't even 'begin' to start programming everything until I figure all this out..

HELLLLLLP!!!!  ;D

Thanks,
Mark

admin

#1
regardless - It will be crucial for you to get familiar with a third party "MIDI Monitor  / data Sniffer" application to verify each transmitted MIDI message is 100% what you need.

MIDI controller Setup / Debug
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2975.0

MountainCraft

Quote from: admin on May 30, 2019, 01:13:23 PM
regardless - It will be crucial for you to get familiar with a third party "MIDI Monitor  / data Sniffer" application to verify each transmitted MIDI message is 100% what you need.

MIDI controller Setup / Debug
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=2975.0

That's another thing (to confuse me even more) regarding routing.. If you can't use 'anything' between the GP-10 USB in, and the MIDX-20 USB out, or in between the USB controller out and the USB in of the MIDX-20 (ie, no USB hubs, everything must be connected directly), how the heck do you hook up anything by which to monitor the MIDI being sent over the USB?

Right now, I'm trying to figure out the best way to route physical cables.. If I want to monitor that stuff too, that makes the routing even more of an issue... no?


admin

Best path to gain knowledge 

* Read all 30 pages of the MIDX-20 thread:
PRIMOVA MIDX-20 Dual Roland USB MIDI Converter / Ctrl Interface
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=17561.0

* Inquire with Codesmart (Robert) the PrimovaSound MIDX-20 developer
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=6365

admin

Quote from: MountainCraft on May 30, 2019, 01:31:40 PM
That's another thing (to confuse me even more) regarding routing.. If you can't use 'anything' between the GP-10 USB in, and the MIDX-20 USB out, or in between the USB controller out and the USB in of the MIDX-20 (ie, no USB hubs, everything must be connected directly), how the heck do you hook up anything by which to monitor the MIDI being sent over the USB?

Right now, I'm trying to figure out the best way to route physical cables.. If I want to monitor that stuff too, that makes the routing even more of an issue... no?

I recommend Must 1st debug all MIDI control for each device and document what works and what does not    - then, build your pedal board & tie down your cables

MountainCraft

Quote from: admin on May 30, 2019, 01:45:58 PM
I recommend Must 1st debug all MIDI control for each device and document what works and what does not    - then, build your pedal board & tie down your cables

I was 'hoping' for a response that went something like this:

"It is generally preferable to use USB over 5 pin MIDI with the MIDX-20 and here is why..." or "If you use the 5 PIN MIDI port from your Host as opposed to the USB, you will have the other USB port on the MIDX-20 available, and that is good because of..." or "It really doesn't matter one way or the other, just connect it with whatever you have handy"

and "For the lack of available CTL ports and the MS-3's inability to receive any MIDI commands, I had a similar issue when I wanted to do this, and here's how I worked around the problem"

Instead, most questions I ask I get "Here read this 30 page thread of terms you don't understand about gear you don't have access to.. and then watch these videos, and then follow these links to pages that haven't been around for like 5 years...  Good luck!"  and then after spending a month trying to accomplish what you want to without any help, someone comes along afterwards and says "I could have saved you all that trouble and told you 'you can't do that' if only you had asked!" ;D

However, I 'did' get an answer about what happens to the GK/COSM Modeling/Synth stuff when something is plugged into the GTR IN of the GP-10.. That was nice and helped muchly..  I now know how to proceed with the problem I had on that front, and what cables I need to make/order to start down that road..   :)

MountainCraft

BTW, I did read most all thirty pages of that thread, but gave up somewhere around 22 when I still had not learned anything regarding my original question which prompted the response...

I don't have a Katana, or a Mustang amp, or a GR-55, or VG99, or any of that stuff...  and had no way to try out and thus learn from all that was being spoke about..nor even understand what was being talked about...  All I'm trying to do is send PC and CC messages to the GP-10.. The regular MIDI stuff is not as difficult... (except where the GP-10 and the XR-18 have stuff that 'only' responds to ch 1, and uses the same PC messages to do so)

This was all so much easier when everything that did MIDI had an in, out, and thru port and they all spoke the same language...  But when I come back to things, I find everbody has gone off the reservation and thrown all kinds of monkey wrenches in the pot..

But at least now I don't have to deal with SCSI cables, termination, and FW/QT drivers that won't work..   ;D

gumbo

I've still got half a room full of old SCSI cables if you would like me to send you some.... :-*

...had everything figured out until the price of scrap copper went down.... ::)


;D
Read slower!!!   ....I'm typing as fast as I can...

kenact

Quote from: gumbo on May 31, 2019, 04:03:52 AM
I've still got half a room full of old SCSI cables if you would like me to send you some.... :-*


Damn, I just recycled all of mine. :)
Godin Session & Montreal FTP, LGXT, LGX SA, Redline, ACS, A12, A11, A10, A4
Danoblaster Baritone w/GK-3
Gretsch Nashville, Viking
Fender Strats
Fret King Supermatic
Larrivee DV03RE
Parker Midi Fly
Seagull, S&P 12
VOX Phantom XII
GR-55, 33, 30, 20, GI-20, RC-50, US-20, VG-99, VP-7
Sentient 6
Cyr 7

MountainCraft

Quote from: kenact on May 31, 2019, 06:14:19 AM

Damn, I just recycled all of mine. :)

I can't.. I just can't bring myself to throw out anything that cost me that dang much..  I may have all that buried with me! :(

admin

#10
Quote from: MountainCraft on May 31, 2019, 09:21:42 AM
I can't.. I just can't bring myself to throw out anything that cost me that dang much..  I may have all that buried with me! :(

Sell on Ebay  - label your 50 pin SCSI cable as:

"Fairlight CMI SCSI Data Drive Cable   
http://kmi9000.tripod.com/kmi_cmi_soft.htm

CodeSmart

My advice to you is:
Start with the MS-3 and GP-10 only first and learn as you go.
UPR USB to MS-3
LWR USB to GP-10
Connect MIDI DIN to Roland UM-ONE and to a Windows PC
Install Boom Send SX https://www.bome.com/products/sendsx
This will allow you to see what the MS-3 sends out.
Setup MS-3 to transmit PC1 on channel 1 for patch 1
Transmitt PC2 on channel 1 for patch 2 etc.
Note you must program per patch in the MS-3 what you want it to send.

Now, make the above working, the GP10 should react and Send-SX should display the MIDI command in hex C0 00, C0 01 etc.

Then learn how to translate channels:
THE GP-10 ONLY LISTENS TO CH 1
Install MIDX PC Assistant, locate and go to the "Translations" tab.
(Note:Boom Send SX can't run at the same time as PC Assistant)
Learn that a MIDI channel may be translated.
Set:
Outside device Ch for USB LWR = 1
Inside device Ch for USB LWR = 10
Now MS-3 must be reconfigured to transmit on channel 10 if you want it to reach the GP-10

You must learn how to use the PC Assistant program to get anywhere with your project.

When you have gotten to this point you are ready to move along with the rest.  :)
Don't try to do everything at once.
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

MountainCraft

Quote from: CodeSmart on May 31, 2019, 10:20:53 PM
My advice to you is:
Start with the MS-3 and GP-10 only first and learn as you go.
UPR USB to MS-3
LWR USB to GP-10
Connect MIDI DIN to Roland UM-ONE and to a Windows PC
Install Boom Send SX https://www.bome.com/products/sendsx
This will allow you to see what the MS-3 sends out.
Setup MS-3 to transmit PC1 on channel 1 for patch 1
Transmitt PC2 on channel 1 for patch 2 etc.
Note you must program per patch in the MS-3 what you want it to send.

Now, make the above working, the GP10 should react and Send-SX should display the MIDI command in hex C0 00, C0 01 etc.

Then learn how to translate channels:
THE GP-10 ONLY LISTENS TO CH 1
Install MIDX PC Assistant, locate and go to the "Translations" tab.
(Note:Boom Send SX can't run at the same time as PC Assistant)
Learn that a MIDI channel may be translated.
Set:
Outside device Ch for USB LWR = 1
Inside device Ch for USB LWR = 10
Now MS-3 must be reconfigured to transmit on channel 10 if you want it to reach the GP-10

You must learn how to use the PC Assistant program to get anywhere with your project.

When you have gotten to this point you are ready to move along with the rest.  :)
Don't try to do everything at once.

Awesome!  This is all great info!  I finally have a path to follow!

Thanks,
Mark