How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products

Started by Elantric, March 13, 2015, 06:53:11 PM

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Elantric

QuoteTony Ravenscroft wrote>
SPOILER ALERT - While a very interesting piece ( below) , it's oriented to gearheads and techies, so I'll sum up: Roland damaged their market potential by referring to their GK hex pickups as "MIDI pickups" - and they still do. 🤨 And people still show up to groups , Gear Forums, demanding to know how to plug the pickup into their synth or laptop; yes, sometimes wondering where to buy a 13-pin / 5-pin MIDI adaptor.









How a GK MIDI Cable destroyed the success of Roland V-Guitar Modeling products

There is a common misconception in the Music Gear world

http://line6.com/support/topic/9778-me-too-goodbye-line-6-hello-boss-gp-10/
QuoteThe Boss / Roland GK-3 converts your guitar notes into MIDI data, and using a standard 13 pin connection, triggers MIDI audio from one of their devices - such as the GP-10, or the older VG-99, or the GR-55.


The above is flat wrong !

yet 80% of Guitarists around the globe believe it to be true -often re spreading false information all over every guitar forum

The Roland GK-3 hex divided pickup provides 6  Analog Output signals ( one per string) and a 7th for the normal Pickups and feed these ANALOG signals through the GK 13 cable to the connected "GK 13 pin PROCESSOR" .
The Roland VGuitar REAL TIME Low latency GK 13pin DSP Guitar Modeling Processors ( VG-8, VG-88, VG-99, GP-10, SY-1000 (as well as competing DSP Guitar Modeling systems from Antares, and Line-6 Variax) do not employ a Guitar to MIDI conversion function for their principal sound . Instead think of the VGuitar system as six separate DSP Modeling signal paths -  The Strings are the oscillators. and it functions quite similar to the Line-6 Variax signal processing flow - ( Guitar PU for each String> six A/D's ( one per string) >DSP >D/A) and latency is similar to Variax (under 2 milliseconds for each string)
and substantially much faster than any Guitar to MIDI system or Guitar to PCM system. ( compare to Guitar to MIDI systems average 7-28milliseconds, lower pitch is higher latency

The biggest difference between Roland VG Series and Line 6 Variax is the DSP is inside the Guitar on the Line-6 system - both allow real time DSP generated Alternate Tunings, Guitar Modeling and on Roland VG systems and Antares ATG-1 - Pedal Steel multi-string pitch  bends  - no MIDI involved !

Click here and see how many folks (and many new VGuitarForums members) STILL call the GK cable a "13 pin MIDI Cable"
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=roland%2B13%2Bpin%2Bmidi%2Bcable

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5188.msg56700#msg56700


The posts above reveal the common misunderstanding of Roland 13pin GK VGuitar  Modeling gear

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7912.msg50135#msg50135

Roland US's lack of Dealer education on the simple matter of

"How should marketing describe the Roland GK 13 Pin DIN Cable on the sales order sheet?

- all helped to slow the sales of VG-8/VG-88/VG-99 /GR-55/GP-10 Roland VGuitar Hex COSM Modelers


Test: Go to most any Guitar Center and you will find the Roland 13 pin cables are typically never stocked in the Guitar department, instead they are stocked over in the Keyboard department - on the same rack with 5pin MIDI Cables.


Even the Planet Waves GK 13 is incorrectly labeled as a "MIDI Cable" !


This misinformation Fake News damaged the "Roland GK VGuitar " brand)



When Roland dealers continue today to call the GK13 DIN cable a "MIDI cable", THIS KILLs their sales of Boss / Roland GK VGuitar  Processors.

Today even casual guitar players  know Guitar to MIDI has a battle with latency and mis-triggered Notes that make you look like a fool at the live gig.

Many Newbies and younger guitarists , even the sales staff at music stores hear the word MIDI Guitar , and  think:

Quote"MIDI Guitar is old school 30 year old tech that should have died" ,
https://www.midi.org/articles/does-midi-have-an-image-problem

and never look at the near zero Latency VG-8/VG-88/VG-99 /GR-55/GP-10/ SY-1000  Roland VGuitar Hex GK Processor /  Modeler systems because they think:

"Roland GK gear uses that 13pin MIDI cable, I don't want to use gear with sluggish Guitar to MIDI latency delays!"

Roland US Marketing Failed since they continue to not deal with the general public's mis informed idea of what a Roland GK 13 Pin interface actually Is and what a GK-3 actually does, and how its an ANALOG CONNECTION .






if you examine the details of the Roland  / RMC / Graph-Tech Ghost Hex PU Circuit which drives the Roland GK 13 pin cable - , it becomes apparent MIDI data messages have never existed withn ANY 13 pin cable  interface from Roland or Any other manufacturer at anytime.


Essentially the GK-3 is a Divided Hexaphonic PU feeding a  multi-channel analog Buffer/Line driver
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Putting_the_Hex_On_the_Postmodern_Pickups


https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7893.msg56178#msg56178

Only Roland Japan Corporate Global site tries to clear up the confusion

http://roland.com/V-Guitar/about.html






---

https://www.roland.com/us/support/knowledge_base/201922959/
DIFFERENCES BETWEEN GUITAR SYNTHESIZERS AND THE VG-8
Back to Results

Tags: gi-10, gr-1, vg-8, vg-88, gr-09
The VG-8 / VG-88 V-Guitar is not a guitar synthesizer like the GR-09, GR-1 or
GR-30/33, or a Guitar-to-MIDI Converter like the GI-10. In the GR-Series and
the GI-10, the signal from the GK-2A pickup (which is analogous to a standard
pickup signal for each string) is converted to a pitch which is then available
to trigger a sound, either internally (GR-09, GR-1, GR-30) or through MIDI.
This makes these units ideal for sequencing and playing realistic sounds like
pianos, organs or drums.

On the VG-8 / VG-88,GP-10 the signal from the GK-2A / GK-3 hex Pickup is modified in realtime into an
entirely new sound which allows all of your picking and playing techniques to
be preserved.
The VG-8/ VG-88 does not transmit MIDI note numbers, nor does it
act as a MIDI sound module. Although the VG-8 / VG-88 has the ability to modify
the guitar sound into unique sounds (like a synthesizer would), there is
absolutely none of the tracking delay normally associated with guitar synths
because the sound of the guitar is modified in real time. The VG-8 / VG-88 is
unsurpassed in creating a multitude of authentic guitar tones which would
previously only be attainable by purchasing a truckload of different guitars,
amps and speakers.


Roland COSM Reference Library
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=88.0

Alec Lee

Good point.  One reason I use the built-in synth voices in my VG-99 and GP-10 is because there's no latency.

Tony Raven

Wow -- you nailed it. :o My "gut" says you're probably correct about the fallout as well.

In my day job, I build transit buses, & sometimes help run wiring harness, so I'm pretty aware of the importance of describing a cable & its terminals precisely, & I've got it locked in my little brain that "MIDI cable" <==> "five-pin DIN" -- period.

And having owned Roland/Boss gear for almost 20 years, when I decided to move into hex guitar, I still had to work to separate "synth" & COSM in my mind. If I found it to be such a stumbling point, chances are there's a LOT of people who mosh it up even worse.

aliensporebomb

At gigs I've had people go "Oh!  Midi guitar."  And I say "nope.  Hex guitar with processing - it's not a MIDI cable..."
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

mapperboy

All these posts are well noted.
Since I became involved in electronic technology as a nerddy 9 year old, building my first FM wireless transmitter with 90V battery power peanut vacuum tubes, I realized there are at least two or more brain types of people in our world.  My Dad, who was a military technologist and flew cold war nukes in SAC (Strategic Air Command) bombers was required to understand complex systems and was a great influence and encouragement to my 'hobby'.  We could discuss the design nuance and build parameters for the my early experiments at length. My mom on the other hand simply wanted to know 'Does It Work Now" and "Can I Talk Into the FM Radio Now?" If I tried to engage her with why it wasn't working yet using technological and electronic terms, her eyes glazed over. 
So it is with many in the music industry, musicians and sales/vendor people alike.  How many guitarists do you know who can't or won't change a string or understand what basic instrument string-action set-up involves? 

Many of those musical brains are great even fantastic musicians but they just don't want to know or don't want to be bothered with knowing.  They rely on 'experts' to help them do their work.  This is where the abuse easily creeps in.  I saw it in the building design and construction business as well.  The perfect fit as one architect often said to me was working with a knowledgeable client, someone who could articulate their needs but also knew (or a lot) about how things were put together and the constraints one has to work with to achieve the perfect job.

When many good players don't really know what comes out of the 1/4" jack it's easy to see how marketeers, either out of ignorance or just plain bad product wrapper descriptions, totally ignore the nuances of what signals are conducted through a Roland 13 pin cable.

Unfortunately this is also what much of the gear industry feeds and depends on to drive sales.     
"No such thing as spare time.
No such thing as free time.
No such thing as down time.
All you got is life time. Go!"
- Henry Rollins

vanceg

I can't even begin to count how many times I've needed to explain this..no...I'm not playing a MIDI guitar. When I purchased my Planet Waves cable my heart sank when I saw it referred to as a MIDI cable. The Moog guitar referred to the 13 pin modification as the "MIDI OUTPUT" modification.   ADRIAN BELEW has even been seen referring to the 13 pin as the "MIDI Output" of his guitar. 
Sigh.

imerkat

When i first got into COSM tech I thought 13-pin cable was a old computer cable for the DOS era. I don't believe MIDI has that reputation since the DJ/home producer EDM musicians took off.

matigrob

this is a great point! by reducing the players subtle touches to MIDI, we loose the most musical information, the direct processing of each string is a lot more expressive and fun to play.
but also the connector itself make the Hex idea sick (it did not kill it in 30 years :-) : the mechanics and the pin usage (we need more control)
at least it brings power supply to the guitar, the stupid old 1/4" makes us use batteries!
but we keep thinking of new solutions, with sufficient demand, a more modern guitar standard will be possible.
maybe the lack of a good name also kills the idea? "Polyphonic" has its meaning for hundreds of years, and "Hexaphonic" is a not very correct modification that does not sound good and does not explain: its not about "several strings" but "separate string processing"
Matthias
http://paradis-guitars.com

Elantric

http://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/clearing-up-roland-midi-guitar-synth-modeling-confusion/

Clearing up the Roland "MIDI" guitar / synth / modeling confusion.
Article #945 Updated on Apr 27, 2007 at 12:00 AM
We seem to encounter a good deal of ongoing confusion about Roland's guitar synthesizers, in particular the hex pickup (GK-2A, GK-3), and how it relates to other products, including some of Roland's more recent modeling products. Here's a brief overview.The Roland GK-2A pickup is NOT a MIDI pickup. It simply contains six humbucking pickups – one per string.A Guitar with a GK-2A or a "GK Ready" 13-pin output equipped guitar is NOT a MIDI guitar.Any guitar with a 13-pin output (Godin, Brian Moore, Fender, Ibanez, etc.) is NOT a MIDI guitar. They are "GK ready" guitars. Meaning they can be used with GR-33s, VG-88s, VGA-7s, GR-55, GP-10, VG-99 and other 13-pin compatible products. There have been some guitars made over the years with actual MIDI outputs (meaning they had to convert the signal to MIDI in the guitar), but for the most part they haven't worked that well or been very popular. They cannot be used with modeling products like Roland's VG-8s, VG-88s, VGA-7s, GR-55, GP-10, VG-99  etc.The GR-33 guitar synthesizer converts the GK-2A's analog output to MIDI. Remember the GR-33 makes it MIDI, not the GK-2A. In the old days (older products) this conversion was somewhat slow, but it has dramatically improved over time. When you hear people refer to "triggering time," (aka, Latency) they are talking about the speed with which the pitch of the string is converted to MIDI data or a data format that can trigger a synthesizer. When you listen to the output of the GR-33 synthesizer you are hearing sample based synthesis triggered directly by what you are playing/triggering on the "GK ready" guitar.The VG-8/88 and VGA-7 are modeling products and require no type of conversion to use the output of the GK-2A or any GK ready instrument. This means there is NO triggering and there is no MIDI note data. The VG's use the output of the GK-2A and then filter any harmonics other than the fundamental frequency. The VG's and Boss GP-10 then use Roland's C.O.S.M. Modeling to construct various guitar sounds, alternate tunings, amplifiers, speakers, effects, etc. based on the actual string sound coming from the instrument. When you listen to the output of the VG-88 & VGA-7 you are hearing COSM Modeling applied to the output from the GK-2A pickup. There is NO conversion to MIDI. Consequently it is actually possible for different guitars to sound slightly different in terms of the modeling features due to inherent differences in their sound, and how it reacts with the specific modeling being applied. In most instances, however, these differences are very subtle.

imerkat

Not sure if this was posted somewhere else but more evidence for the main thesis of this thread:
http://www.prsguitars.com/index.php/blog/post/ptc_guitar_overhaul_vernon_reids_s2_vela

"When the paint had dried it was time for hardware and final assembly. A custom pickguard was fabricated to fit the two EMG humbuckers, Roland GK3 MIDI pickup, and new electronics controls. If you were wondering what the 13-pin connector was for, it allows connectivity between the Roland MIDI pickup and MIDI control unit!
Refer to the image below for a run-down of the electronics controls:
1. Magnetic Pickup Volume Control
2. 3-Way Blade Pickup Selector
3. Roland MIDI Pickup Volume Control
4. Magnetic Pickup Tone Control
5. 3-Way Mini Toggle (Up = MIDI Pickup, Middle = Both, Down = All Magnetic Pickup)
6. Toggle Up Through MIDI Sounds
7. Toggle Down Through MIDI Sounds
"


admin

Proponents continuing spreading wrong information regarding Roland / Boss VGuitar systems continue today
https://www.facebook.com/groups/VGuitarForums/1125911634464921/?comment_id=1126669727722445&reply_comment_id=1126799314376153&notif_id=1568736362654971&notif_t=group_comment_reply

QuoteThe VG-99 is not zero latency at all, it still is an old pitch to midi. the latency can be pretty high on low strings

Seems folks refuse to read product owners manuals, and then post incorrect information based upon Logical Fallacy assumptions with zero actual hands on experience with the product.

Its true for the Guitar to MIDI function, the VG-99 is in the middle of the pack  - but many assume that:
"ALL VG-99 tones are reliant on Guitar to MIDI, therefore all VG-99 tones must be sluggish and high latency"
  - (Above is a classic Logical Fallacy and completely WRONG - the VG-99 Internal Sound  DSP COSM Modeling is ultrafast, no glitching, even  modern Guitar to MIDI products are not even close to the ultra low latency of Roland VG-99 or Boss GP-10  DSP COSM Modeling tones  !)

GuitarBuilder

Quote from: admin on September 17, 2019, 11:41:54 AM
Proponents continuing spreading wrong information regarding Roland / Boss VGuitar systems continue today
https://www.facebook.com/groups/VGuitarForums/1125911634464921/?comment_id=1126669727722445&reply_comment_id=1126799314376153&notif_id=1568736362654971&notif_t=group_comment_reply

Seems folks refuse to read product owners manuals, and then post incorrect information based upon Logical Fallacy assumptions with zero actual hands on experience with the product.

Its true for the Guitar to MIDI function, the VG-99 is in the middle of the pack  - but many assume that:
"ALL VG-99 tones are reliant on Guitar to MIDI, therefore all VG-99 tones must be sluggish and high latency"
  - (Above is a classic Logical Fallacy and completely WRONG - the VG-99 DSP COSM Modeling is ultrafast, no glitching, even  modern Guitar to MIDI products are not even close to the ultra low latency of Roland VG-99 or Boss GP-10  DSP COSM Modeling tones  !)

This is just like fighting the Flat Earth believers!  We must continue to debunk the nonsense about GK being MIDI!
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

aliensporebomb

Every gig I play I get at least one person asking how I manage to minimize or avoid tracking delay.  When I tell them there isn't any to speak of they sort of "BLINK" and their eyes get big and don't really understand what I'm telling them.   Sad.  Then I say "it's not a guitar synth you know..."

VG-99 tracking in the GR-300 mode:
https://soundcloud.com/aliensporebomb/bleargh6-vg99-gr300



My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.



admin

This clown is spewing dis info

QuoteVariax Latency  (it's far, far better than something like the Roland GK-3 pickup into a VG-99 though)

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/reviews/electric_guitars/line_6/jtv-59p_james_tyler_variax/31447/

admin

Quote from: s0c9 on March 21, 2020, 11:28:45 AM
thanks for the feedback...   tracking is NOT the main goal, simplciity really is..  but..
I can't believe
In terms of tracking, FTP > GR-3x > GR-55.  ????
I was under the impression it was FTP > GR-55 > GR-3x ....

The tracking on my VG-99 (+GK3) was much better than the GR-33 (+GK3) and I was under the impression the GR-55 was a combination of both, and "better"?

GK Processor - a 13 pin device with GK 13 pin input which triggers internal sounds and many also have a Guitar to MIDI function too.
 
Have to clarify that "TRACKING LATENCY" varies even on the same  GK Processor depending on what specific function is being used:

1  DSP Guitar Modeling
2  Internal OSC Synth
3  Guitar to Internal PCM Synth
4  Guitar to External MIDI

For example the GR-55 is capable of most of the above, but each have have different "TRACKING LATENCY"  - the lowest latency is #1, the highest latency is #4

TRACKING LATENCY will be highest when using the "Guitar to MIDI" function triggering an external hardware MIDI Synth via 5 pin MIDI OUT on the GK Processor     

So we must clarify the user case example 1,2,3,4, when stating the GK Processor's  "TRACKING LATENCY".

admin

Bad info is getting perpetuated and spread by folks who should know better


GuitarBuilder

"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

carlb

Interesting. He's been on GK pickups and Boss/Roland for many years, central to his rigs, and knows what they're about. Yet still calls it "Midi-Guitar." He didn't use a bit of MIDI in that whole video. Not for patch control, not for driving a separate MIDI sound source. Just modeled guitars, amps, and synths.

Had to smirk a little - he didn't get the preferential treatment for the new product release.

Spent too long going through too many preset patches - just get a few 'low-value' patches covered for example, then say how most are that way - save us all some time. Didn't explore the foot switches on any preset patches, which are active for about all patches. Pointed to the empty assigns for one of his own patches, something about not being great for live control? (Something like that anyway - it was odd.)

Made a cool patch for bells or such ... Made valid points about the box's weird shortcomings for being the flagship guitar-synth of a synth-savvy company. Agree that some killer presets would give Boss a 10x return on investment. Agree that a firmware update could potentially make this a killer box. (But have to accept that the one realistic update will just fix bugs, grab a few low lying feature-fruits, and be done.)

What he does do quite well is make videos that are watchable.
ES Les Paul, internal Roland GK
Boss SY-1000, Valeton Coral Amp pedal
Morningstar MC8 & MC6
QSC CP8 powered speaker

gumbo

...and he's a lefty who plays like that so he can still borrow everyone else's guitars.... ;D ;D ;D

Sorry...MIDI guitars... ::)
Read slower!!!   ....I'm typing as fast as I can...

aliensporebomb

Yeah.  For a guy who seemingly was pro GK all the way he's saying all the wrong things terminology wise and he wasn't really letting some of those patches speak to him, he was just going "yeah, uh huh, next" quite a bit.  Still....
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

admin

For  those interested in the underlying principles involved in this technology read this paper by Professor Miller Puckette:


GRAFTING SYNTHESIS PATCHES ONTO LIVE MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS
Miller Puckette
University of California, San Diego
http://msp.ucsd.edu/Publications/icmc10.pdf
http://msp.ucsd.edu/techniques/latest/book.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_Puckette

baatkarlo

I woke this morning and read this thread. Been scratching my head for a decade about hexpups and synth vs MIDI. My GR-20 has noticeable latency but VG-99 and GP-10 do not. Thanks to you all, that's cleared up now!

Is TriplePlay a MIDI VST fronted by SSP device with hexpup?
Eat sleep get up play. Eat sleep get up play. Eat sleep get up play.