SY-1000 - High end loss when using GK-cable with normal pickups ( Cable SIM)

Started by DML, December 06, 2014, 06:02:00 PM

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DML

When I use normal pickups feeding the GP I'm experiencing a huge amount of high end signal loss when using a GK-cable, in comparison with my normal guitar cable (Klotz La Grange, Klotz AC110) and with my wireless units (Sony DWZ-B30bg or Line6 XD-V75tr). When I use a patch with the Full Range ampmodel, feeding it with normal pickups and using the GK cable, it doesn't sound as bright and clear as with the normal guitar cable.
Even when I use both cables, as soon as I plug in the GK cable (and do NOT feed the normal pu signal through it), the normal pu-signal through the normal guitar cable loses high end. Looks like the GK cable has a high capacitance.
And even it is noticable with overdrive, distortion and/ or hi gain ampmodels, you loose some serious attack when loosing hi end.
Any thoughts about it?

PS. So far I've used the shortest GK-cable: 3 meters so this one must have the lowest capacitance......
Boss GT-1000core, Gibson Explorer 2018, Höfner travel guitar, 4x Framus Renegade Pro, Framus Panthera, Framus Panthera Custom 7, G&L Asat, Rocktron/Egnater Velocity Valve, 2x Mesa Thiele EVM12L, 2x Mesa Thiele EVM12L Road Ready, Voes MX12 midi controller, Ovation 2078TX-5 Elite, PJB Cub II - AG150.

Elantric


Spider


pasha811

Quote from: Elantric on December 07, 2014, 05:46:31 AM
This is true, If this bothers you, run separate cables

Hi Elantric, Spider

I wasn't aware of that. Testing the GP10 with GC-1 I do not recall that problem. You said it happens so how is that compared to GK-2a and VG99? Is that bad? I was slowly convincing myself over getting a GP10 and using it with both GK and normal PU at the same time (GK-2A) but that could turn into a show stopper.. or not?   ???

Best
Pasha
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Elantric

It's well known the  GK hex preamp employs an op amp buffer for Normal guitar tones.
The type used in GK-3 is an improvement , but it's still an active op amp buffer and tone purists who are used to the sound of their Seymour Duncan passive pickups with one guitar cable or true bypass effects feeding their Dumble or Dr Z Amp with a straight guitar cable will always hear the impact an op amp buffer makes on their signal.

When I say run 2 cables,  I'm saying run a 13 pin to GP10 and 1/4 " to your Dumble amp.

myself I'm starting to use just my Godin, a 13 pin cable and the GP-10 and  I'm happy. The high end is still there with my LGX SA loaded with Seymour Duncan's and bank 80-90 on GP-10 gets me all the Amp/ Cab modeling I need for normal pick up.
And we should all play more guitar

pasha811

Quote from: Elantric on December 07, 2014, 07:11:51 AM
It's well known the  GK hex preamp employs an op amp buffer for Normal guitar tones.
The type used in GK-3 is an improvement , but it's still an active op amp buffer and tone purists who are used to the sound of their Seymour Duncan passive pickups with one guitar cable or true bypass effects feeding their Dumble or Dr Z Amp with a straight guitar cable will always hear the impact an op amp buffer makes on their signal.

When I say run 2 cables,  I'm saying run a 13 pin to GP10 and 1/4 " to your Dumble amp.
And we should all play more guitar

Thanks Elantric. I like "And we should all play more guitar" which brings me to maybe for gigs a Zoom G3 or G3X it's more than enough and I can leverage my magnetic PU. I will miss some GR300 pads.. some Acoustic Guitars.. and some noiseless Les Paul for leads.. but I can live with that. Or I can fall back to my VG99 (I do not hear impossible loss of high frequencies but it might be that my ears are gone.. time to have a doctor to check them out).. However a GP10 with Modeled Guitars runs fine. It's only if you want to couple a Sitar with your Strat (simulating a double channel like VG99) that you might need that magnetic PU guitar. ...

Best
Pasha 
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Elantric

Myself in my new band the normal pickups are crucial , and I use my 5 way PU selector all the time with several changes mid song.
The modeling is important for Alt Tunings when I have to play Keith Richards or an Acoustic part mid set. The Synth tones are occasional spice, but not crucial for me.
The point of using the GP-10 is we can play more gigs at venues that demand lower volume.  I can still get great guitar tone . And set up tear down in minutes and with lighter weight. I could buy a Euro rail pass next summer bring a gig bag with Godin and GP-10 and an ipad and Macbook and make money and compose record

pasha811

Quote from: Elantric on December 07, 2014, 08:09:36 AM
Myself I my band the normal pickups are crucial , and I use my 5 way PU selector all the time with several changes mid song.
The modeling is important for Alt Tunings when I have to play Keith Richards or an Acoustic part mid set. The Synth tones are occasional spice, but not crucial for me.

Good to know i'm not alone.. several thousand miles divide us.. same thinking! It's the same way I am using my VG99 today.
I use my normal pickups (more control and I know what PU position I am..  ;D ) and when it's the case I switch to modeling.
COSM AMP all the time anyway.

Thanks!
Pasha
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

Spider

I feel tone degradation with GK-3 too. So it is there but like Elantric wrote: if you are tone purist and use regular tube amp, second cable is the best solution. But if you use COSM amp from GP-10 or need simple as possible rig 13-pin is OK for me.



pasha811

Quote from: Elantric on December 07, 2014, 08:09:36 AM
Myself in my new band the normal pickups are crucial , and I use my 5 way PU selector all the time with several changes mid song.
The modeling is important for Alt Tunings when I have to play Keith Richards or an Acoustic part mid set. The Synth tones are occasional spice, but not crucial for me.
The point of using the GP-10 is we can play more gigs at venues that demand lower volume.  I can still get great guitar tone . And set up tear down in minutes and with lighter weight. I could buy a Euro rail pass next summer bring a gig bag with Godin and GP-10 and an ipad and Macbook and make money and compose record

.. I guess you have a Rasberry PI as well in your bag.. ::)
I like the point "I can still get great guitar tone . And set up tear down in minutes and with lighter weight".  :)
Pretty much says it all.
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

pasha811

Quote from: Spider on December 07, 2014, 08:46:37 AM
But if you use COSM amp from GP-10 or need simple as possible rig 13-pin is OK for me.

Thanks Spider.
I have matched my old Fender Amp with VG99 and Normal PU. I can confirm there's a difference.
The bell-like attack of my Strat Plus is smoothed but not to a point is not there. Maybe I have to try
with newer PU but I am sure that the presence on the high end is compromised. Nothing I can't live
without but it's there..
Conversely I agree with you. It all depends on the venue IMHO. I do not know many places where the sound is taken
care to a point where you can tell the difference.  :'(

Best
Pasha
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

DML

Okay, that's clear. For the record: I'm not a tonepurist. If I would be one, why would I use a GP-10 anyway? Nore am I using Seymour Duncan pickups and "booohteeeek" amps as well. Driving my GP-10 straight to P.A. and using some Steinberger Synapses with EMG's as main axes, so there's nothing spectacular, but the high end loss to me is noticable. And yes, I will use a straight cable and only use a GK cable with alternate tuning's and guitarmodeling, which is 10% of a gig.
Boss GT-1000core, Gibson Explorer 2018, Höfner travel guitar, 4x Framus Renegade Pro, Framus Panthera, Framus Panthera Custom 7, G&L Asat, Rocktron/Egnater Velocity Valve, 2x Mesa Thiele EVM12L, 2x Mesa Thiele EVM12L Road Ready, Voes MX12 midi controller, Ovation 2078TX-5 Elite, PJB Cub II - AG150.

diecairo

Hello everybody.
I could have opened a new post but this seemed to fit my doubt. It regards what the GP-10 manual says about normal pickup settings, in particular "CABLE SIM":

CABLE SIM
Compensates the sound of the normal pickups when a GK guitar is
connected. With a GK pickup, the signal of the normal pickup is connected
via a cable of approximately 20 cm, so there will be more high frequencies
than a conventional guitar cable. By setting this parameter appropriately for
the length of guitar cable you normally use, you can get closer to a natural
guitar sound. If you connect your guitar to the GUITAR IN jack (normal guitar
input), set this to %u201COFF".


Apart from the fact that this instructions seems to totally confute and overturn what everyone here says it's true (it states "more high frequencies"! do I understand wrong? maybe)...
Which is the 20 cm cable it is talking about? Not from the guitar to the device I presume, and there are not 20 cm GK cables on the market... Is it the one inside the guitar, from the hexaphonic to the output jack? But then why the possible settings are 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 or 12 meters (too long to imagine inside the guitar body)?
Is it referring to to a real or virtual cable inside the GP-10 going from the GK input to the virtual amps and fx? But in this case the real lenght of the GK cable is not taken into account.
I looked also in the same section of the manual in other languages, it says the same everywhere, so its not a printing error, if not in the original "manuscript".
I really don't get it. ??? ??? ???
Does someone have a clue?
Thanks  :)

admin

Re Normal PU Cable SiM





The typical GK-3 equipped guitar with GK-3 uses the included  short 7" (20cm) 1/4" guitar cable from guitar output into the to GK-3 input

Try  each of the different Cable SIM settings and report back what behavior it impacts the normal PU signal when using

Compare the tone of

Cable SIM = OFF

vs

Cable SIM = 12M/40FT


Is Cable SIM = 12M/40FT =  Brighter tone?

or

Is Cable SIM = 12M/40FT =  Darker tone?
when compared to Cable SIM = OFF


BTW - They copied the same poorly translated explanation in the new SY-1000 manual



diecairo

Thanks for the answer  :)
You've been quick and clear  :)

I use a Strat powered by Roland or a Godin lgxt sa, as you know they both have internal hexaphonic, so no 20 cm jack to the GK and I did not think of that. I see now.
But still the whole question is not clear to me. So on behalf of the manual the lenght of the GK 13 pin cable going to the GP-10 or similar is not relevant regarding high frequency loss? Do they assume this  because the GK attached to the body has  preamp or impedance converter inside?

You're right, poor translation must be the cause of these misunderstanding. In the piece of manual you attached there is immediately a foggy statement:
These are settings for the normal (conventional) guitar signal that is input to the GUITAR INPUT jack ...But you use a real cable to connect normal guitar input jack, no need for simulation ( or is it implying everyone use wireless systems? ;D). I presume the original japan version meant the normal guitar signal going down the 13 pin cable to the Gk input of the SY-1000 (which btw I'm not considering buying, still digging in old VG gear, I hope GAS - gaSY-1000? ;) - won't strike me).

admin

Quote from: diecairo on February 28, 2020, 07:45:35 AM
Thanks for the answer  :)
You've been quick and clear  :)

I use a Strat powered by Roland or a Godin lgxt sa, as you know they both have internal hexaphonic, so no 20 cm jack to the GK and I did not think of that. I see now.
But still the whole question is not clear to me. So on behalf of the manual the lenght of the GK 13 pin cable going to the GP-10 or similar is not relevant regarding high frequency loss? Do they assume this  because the GK attached to the body has  preamp or impedance converter inside?

You're right, poor translation must be the cause of these misunderstanding. In the piece of manual you attached there is immediately a foggy statement:
These are settings for the normal (conventional) guitar signal that is input to the GUITAR INPUT jack ...But you use a real cable to connect normal guitar input jack, no need for simulation ( or is it implying everyone use wireless systems? ;D). I presume the original japan version meant the normal guitar signal going down the 13 pin cable to the Gk input of the SY-1000 (which btw I'm not considering buying, still digging in old VG gear, I hope GAS - gasy-1000? ;) - won't strike me).

Ive been too busy to actually try the Cable Sim

The Boss GP-10 / SY-1000 Cable Sim function desription implies its a High Frequency Boost, to counteract the typical High Frequency Cut which occurs when using a passive guitar with a long cable

So can anyone perform this test of normal PU CABLE SIM Function  and report back what actually occurs with either a  GP-10 or SY-1000?

Compare the Normal Pickup tone with GP-10 or SY-1000 set with :

Normal PU Cable SIM = OFF

vs

Normal PU Cable SIM (on) = 12M/40FT


Is Cable SIM(on) = 12M/40FT =  Brighter tone?

or

Is Cable SIM(on) = 12M/40FT =  Darker tone?
when compared to Cable SIM = OFF
??

admin

Quote from: admin on February 28, 2020, 07:54:28 AM
Ive been too busy to actually try the Cable Sim

The Boss GP-10 / SY-1000 Cable Sim function description implies its a High Frequency Boost, to counteract the typical High Frequency Cut which occurs when using a passive guitar with a long cable

So can anyone perform this test of normal PU CABLE SIM Function  and report back what actually occurs with either a  GP-10 or SY-1000?

Compare the Normal Pickup tone with GP-10 or SY-1000 set with :

Normal PU Cable SIM = OFF

vs

Normal PU Cable SIM (on) = 12M/40FT


Is Cable SIM(on) = 12M/40FT =  Brighter tone?

or

Is Cable SIM(on) = 12M/40FT =  Darker tone?
when compared to Cable SIM = OFF
??

Answer from Boss US

QuoteAaron Marino A: very subtle, but Cable SIM(on) = 12M/40FT = Darker tone
when compared to Cable SIM = OFF


THANK YOU!
So in a practical application, many old Blues artists ( Buddy Guy) used to perform with a 100 foot guitar cable and go off stage into the crowd during solos. The Long Cable Length with its higher capacitance became part of his guitar tone , attenuating high frequencies, and delivering a rounder full bodied tone
the SY-1000  / GP-10 Cable Sim replicates this effect.

diecairo

The answer from Boss is  correct.

In a GP-10 "init" patch with just the clean amp + original cab on it, with a Strat GC1, normal signal only via gk cable, (strat tone knob all the way up)  the difference in tone is there. Obviously is a matter of eq.

Cable sim OFF= bright tone. Not bad with center or neck p.u., a bit nasty with center + bridge or bridge alone.

Cable sim ON - 12M/40FT - = darker toward muffled tone.

So the cable sim function is a High Frequency Cut,  to simulate the High Frequency Cut which occurs using a passive guitar with a long cable.

The difference is more subtle between OFF and ON - 1mt, and raise on increasing the virtual lenght. Maybe hardly noticeable inside a whole mix.

CodeSmart

In my opinion they could to the contrary also have had a high freq boost mode to compensate for the fact that with permanent (GK-Kit) etc. installation it appears the impedance of the op-amp buffers may darken some regular passive pickups, as the originator of this tread indicates.
With in-built GK it's not possible to disconnect the wire between the regular out and the 13-pin circuitry externally unless you mount some switching jack to the guitar.
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

gumtown

Quote from: CodeSmart on February 28, 2020, 03:20:06 PM
In my opinion they could to the contrary also have had a high freq boost mode to compensate for the fact that with permanent (GK-Kit) etc. installation it appears the impedance of the op-amp buffers may darken some regular passive pickups, as the originator of this tread indicates.
With in-built GK it's not possible to disconnect the wire between the regular out and the 13-pin circuitry externally unless you mount some switching jack to the guitar.
Yes, i agree.
I don't get it, why add 'cable compensation' to lose high end tone from your signal, when I can just turn down high's on the  EQ.

Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

diecairo

Quote from: gumtown on February 28, 2020, 04:13:25 PM

I don't get it, why add 'cable compensation' to lose high end tone from your signal, when I can just turn down high's on the  EQ.

Right statement (if you mean at the beginning of the chain, before any fx or amp sim).
Besides that, one can also just roll back the tone knob of the normal pickups.

admin

Quote from: diecairo on February 28, 2020, 05:24:42 PM
Right statement (if you mean at the beginning of the chain, before any fx or amp sim).
Besides that, one can also just roll back the tone knob of the normal pickups.

I might prefer a high freq boost to allow a muddy  15 ft GK cable to sound like a typical 12ft 1/4" guitar cable

diecairo

That's why I was saying  that Boss manual on this issue seems to totally confute and overturn what everyone here says it's true (loss of normal p.u. high frequencies via GK cable).
Besides that, IMHO, if the frequency a tone purist miss is not there when the signal leaves the guitar, no frequency booster can give him back what it's not there.

admin

Quote from: diecairo on February 28, 2020, 06:14:45 PM
That's why I was saying  that Boss manual on this issue seems to totally confute and overturn what everyone here says it's true (loss of normal p.u. high frequencies via GK cable).
Besides that, IMHO, if the frequency a tone purist miss is not there when it leaves the guitar, no frequency booster can give him back what it's not there.

I think we need more empirical data

Anyone else want to test this and report what they experience?

Is Cable Sim a treble boost or indeed a treble cut?

Im away from my SY-1000 until Sunday- in LA (Agoura Hills @ Canyon Club for a Foghat concert.

diecairo

I don't know regarding SY-1000, but on the GP-10 cable sim is definitely a treble cut.

For what it's worth, I recorded a little fingerpicking passage with the normal pickup of a GC-1 Strat, connected via GK cable only.
Using a GP-10 "init" patch, that always comes with clean amp+original cab. I added only a very tiny minimal reverb.
Center pickup, tone knob all the way up.
The file starts with the cable sim OFF, then the 12 meters simulation (=max setting possible), then OFF again, then 1 meter sim, finally OFF again. I've added a voiceover to indicate the different sections. The second time of the OFF setting comes the voice states it a little later, to let hear the difference better.

Again, it is very subtle, but the longer the simulated lenght, the more high frequencies reduce (for simplicity I avoided recording 3,5,7 and 9 mt sim). So in that sense Boss manual is right, even if in reality everybody confirm high frequency loss via gk cable and therefore the need of something doing the opposite of the given cable sim parameter.

BTW, I found that the doubt on the cable sim function was already solved by Elantric here: https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15379.msg111239#msg111239