16 v 24 bit, asio4all, usb issues

Started by kimyo, January 10, 2014, 11:19:53 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

kimyo

i found a couple threads which discuss asio4all and the consensus seems to be 'just say no'.

i've been fooling around with it in spite of this, for a couple of reasons:

1) with ableton i can only use one audio interface
2) using usb means (i think?) a superior recording (digital direct instead of analog into a/d converters)

i am finding tracking to be too slow to work with.  perhaps i can get this functional, but, before i invest the time i'd just like to know if #2 is correct, and if the gr-55's native signal over usb is 24 bits.  the specs say the gr-55/gk combo is 24 bits, but that could be internal only.

i had better tracking results when i dedicated a pc to the gr-55 and used an audio over cat5 vst to get the signal onto the main pc, although switching between patches seemed to take forever.  (thinking that 24bit vs 16bit setup or midi guitar output was the cause of the slowness, more testing to be done there.)

the unit sounds great when recorded thru my m-audio fast track pro.  however, i'd love to free up those inputs and use them for an effects unit instead.

i'm running windows xp with a multicore processor.  ableton live 9. 

thanks in advance for any tips/advice.

Elantric

#1
My 2 cents - If you walked into a pro recording Studio tomorrow with your GR-55, its likely they are running a dedicated Protools HD systems on a Mac Pro Tower.

If you walk in with your GR-55 and connected USB cable and hand them the other end of this same USB cable, and ask them to record you - they will probably give you a funny look.

Most pros in pro studios and live on stage are connecting the analog GR-55 stereo outputs to a good stereo D.I. box, and treat it like any other Keyboard synth.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ProD2/

Many folks get hung up on something they read: like : "An all digital signal chain delivers better results"  - when the fact is the typical Windows PC suffers the problems you are experiencing, or zip /sputter noise because of USB 3.0 ports not playing well with digital audio  - also remember 99% percent of folks will recommend a computer - but they typically are using it for playback only.
         
(A known issue today,  more details here):
USB 3.0 compatible chipsets for Audio Interfaces
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=8562.0


As Live performance Musicians, we  represent a very small population, and our needs are very different. One computer that runs great for playback, may often exhibit snaps, crackles and pops, and latency when attempting to punch in overdubs or record clean 24 bit stereo audio,  while simultaneously playing back a multi-track mix - add support for live performance  / low latency triggering softsynths, VSTi's, Amp simulation - few machines and audio interfaces  handle all this simultaneously in an acceptable manner -and in my experience the ones designed in Cupertino  handle these tasks well, while the rest require much research and crawling through forums for advice.     Your average joe non musician will never encounter these scenarios. 

Not to start a battle - because talk to 10 people you get severe opposing positions,  - but I own several Windows systems and several Mac systems, and after determining wasted time debugging audio  = wasted money, I now do bulk of my work using the one that starts with an "M", because it works, and allows several apps to run audio simultaneously opening many more doors of creative possibilities for me.


Now grab some popcorn and watch as several others will surely tell me I'm full of #$%^

I talk all more about my computers here:
 
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6104.0

Back to your  Roland GR-55, its a swiss army knife with many features - but there are better devices that offer lower Audio Recording latency and work better than GR-55 when used as Windows Audio Interfaces ( RME, Focusrite, MOTU come to mind) 



kimyo

i'm not likely to find myself working in a recording studio, it doesn't matter to me what they run.  please don't go there with the mac thing.  that path is of no interest to me. 

i do have to look at the usb 3 vs. 2 ports, i have had problems with that before and it could well be that i've attached the gr-55 to one of the usb 3 ports.  thanks for that.

i'm very grateful for any advice which applies to my situation.

most importantly, is there a quality difference when recording digitally vs thru an interface?  i'm not talking about 'voodoo', just, is the signal 24 bit and has anyone compared tracks recorded via usb vs analog?

Elantric

#3
IN regards to the title of your topic  - read this article on audio dynamic range and noise floor comparing 16bit vs 24 bit
http://www.analog.com/en/content/relationship_data_word_size_dynamic_range/fca.html




and more advice is here:
http://tweakheadz.com/setting-up-your-audio/

http://tweakheadz.com/latency/
http://tweakheadz.com/soundcards-and-audio-interfaces/

kimyo

thanks for those tweakheadz links.  i found this there:

http://tweakheadz.com/16-bit-vs-24-bit-audio/

the tl/dr is that 24bits / 44.1k is the way to go unless you have specific needs. 

according to asio4all, the gr-55 is connecting at 32 bits.  i don't see a way to set that manually.

i recorded some snippets using a half-dozen patches.  in each set, the first take is the gr-55 via usb, the second is the gr-55 analog outs into a m-audio fasttrackpro @ 24 bits.  no effects, mastering, and i just eyeballed the volumes to get them close to each other.

the gr-55 guitar midi was disabled.  when attached via usb, certain functions like the tuner were practically unusable.  this occurred on both usb2.0 and usb3.0 ports.

also, i'm pretty sure that the tracking was impaired while attached via usb.  when running thru the ft pro the guitar felt more like a musical instrument, thru the usb it felt brittle.

for the most part, i can't hear a difference between the usb and analog versions.  as a result i'm gonna ditch the idea of recording via usb.

Elantric

#5
ASIO4All has issues on most machines and the GR-55 is fixed at 24bits @ 44.1KHz Audio over USB- no change in that.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/221237/asio4all-explanation



I would suggest not use ASIO4ALL - as most GR-55 Users with Windows experience lowest latency with the Roland USB Driver, which supplies ASIO Buffer size control - this is the GR-55 Audio round trip latency adjust for your Windows system.

Read all about it here:


GR-55 FAQ: TOP THINGS TO KNOW
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4006.0


* How to install the Roland GR-55 USB ASIO Driver and use the Roland GR-55 Librarian - do this first!
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3050.0


and after install above run this

http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml
Thesycon's DPC Latency Checker is a Windows tool that analyses the capabilities of a computer system to handle real-time data streams properly. It may help to find the cause for interruptions in real-time audio and video streams, also known as drop-outs. The program supports Windows 7, Windows 7 x64, Windows Vista, Windows Vista x64, Windows Server 2003, Windows Server 2003 x64, Windows XP, Windows XP x64, Windows 2000.


kimyo

i wasn't using asio4all while running that last set of tests.

just the gr-55 straight into ableton via usb using the asio drivers.

it doesn't seem usable that way, as i mentioned, things like the tuner were barely functional. 

have you done any recordings via the gr-55 usb port? 

at this stage, it's not a latency issue, being connected via usb for audio seems to require more horsepower than the gr-55's brain can handle.

Elantric

#7
Quotehave you done any recordings via the gr-55 usb port?
Sure - i get acceptable GR-55 operation as an audio interface with Win 7 using Roland GR-55 USB Driver running a 2011 Lenovo W520 I7 Quad Core 2.65GHZ, 32GB RAM (only 4GB needed for WinXP) , SSD Drives running Reaper DAW with GR-55 connected to the W520s  One USB 2.0 port. Avoid USB 3.0 ports if you can - which forces one to look for  used 2011 era Win7 laptop that still has USB 2.0 ports
http://www.reaper.fm

QuoteI'm running windows xp with a multicore processor.  ableton live 9.

On what type computer hardware?

If you are still running WinXP -this hints you may have an older computer and less than 4GB RAM. And Ableton Live 9 is a very CPU power  / RAM hungry app. I also run Live9 on my Lenovo W520 ( which based upon my poor results  with this Windows machine, I switched to a MacbookPro and OSX Mavericks to get the most out it)   
Reaper remains  my top choice for audio recording on Windows with a limited budget. While Abelton live 9 on older Windows computer = pain - (pops, noise, high latency)
And for some reason when you search forums for help - seem only 20% know the difference between a true vendor provided steinberg spec true ASIO driver vs ASIO4ALL - which is not the same thing at all.

So when you hear people say:
"I tried ASIO and it did (didn't) work"-
I blame the modern world convention of abbreviation and lack of knowledge to know one USB driver from the other. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Stream_Input/Output

Audio Stream Input/Output (ASIO) is a computer sound card driver protocol for digital audio specified by Steinberg, providing a low-latency and high fidelity interface between a software application and a computer's sound card. Whereas Microsoft's DirectSound is commonly used as an intermediary signal path for non-professional users, ASIO allows musicians and sound engineers to access external hardware directly.


Overview
ASIO bypasses the normal audio path from a user application through layers of intermediary Windows operating system software so that an application connects directly to the sound card hardware. Each layer that is bypassed means a reduction in latency (the delay between an application sending audio information and it being reproduced by the sound card, or input signals from the sound card being available to the application). In this way ASIO offers a relatively simple way of accessing multiple audio inputs and outputs independently. Its main strength lies in its method of bypassing the inherently high latency and poor-quality mixing and sample rate conversion of Windows NT 5.x audio mixing kernels (KMixer)[citation needed], allowing direct, high speed communication with audio hardware. Unlike KMixer, an unmixed ASIO output is "bit identical" or "bit perfect"; that is, the bits sent to or received from the audio interface are identical to those of the original source, thus potentially providing higher audio fidelity. In addition, ASIO supports 24-bit samples, unlike Windows NT 5.x MME and DirectSound which truncate 24-bit samples to the upper 16 bits, whereas Windows NT 6.x mixer provides 32-bit floating point output. Higher bit-depth samples offer the potential for a higher signal-to-noise ratio.



http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110404192848AAcITBw
What is Asio4all 2.10 that installs with fl studio 10?

ASIO4ALL allows you to use ASIO even if your sound card doesn't natively support it. ASIO is Steinberg's extremely low latency audio driver interface, something that's very nice to have if you're recording MIDI performances.

It's legit and very nice for sound cards that don't support ASIO directly.

http://www.asio4all.com
What started as a bedroom project in early 2003 - for the sole purpose to get ASIO support for the AC97 on my laptop - has become ASIO4ALL - the universal ASIO driver for WDM audio.

Honestly, I did not expect this project to become as popular as it has become (but this popularity does not particularly dissapoint me either ;-)

ASIO4ALL is a hardware independent low latency ASIO driver for WDM audio devices. It uses WDM Kernel-Streaming and sometimes even more sophisticated methods to achieve its objectives.



ASIO vs. WDM: Best practices in Modern Home Recording
http://www.audiorecording.me/asio-vs-wdm-best-practices-in-modern-home-recording.html
Best practices in using ASIO or WDM

1.) WDM is restricted to non-professional music production environment because of latency and recording quality related issues. If you analyzed carefully how WDM audio drivers work, it will communicate with the Windows kernel first before reaching the audio to its intended destination (like recording software); thus adding latency in the process.

Also WDM will implement sample rate conversion and bit depth in the background which can alter the quality of the recorded audio stream. High latency is not recommended for professional digital home recording because these can introduce lag and timing issues in your multi-track recording project.

2.) If the objective in using audio is gaming or non-recording related applications where high latency is acceptable, you can stay with your WDM device as it will usually offer a cheaper hardware solution.

3.) When recording a high number of channels simultaneously, such as recording a live band; you need a high bandwidth solution in communicating between your audio interface and the computer. For very high bandwidth implementation, you can use Firewire or USB 2.0 and USB 3.0. If you are using Windows operating system, you can read this tutorial on how to optimize Windows XP for firewire & USB audio interface.
http://www.audiorecording.me/optimize-windows-xp-for-firewire-usb-audio-interface-during-recording.html


Since Roland Corp provides a native ASIO driver for the GR-55 -  Roland GR-55 ASIO Driver should be your best best (no need for ASIO4ALL )-- but if you like to tinker go ahead and try ASIO4ALL and repost back with your results.
Some fools say they get lower latency using ASIO4ALL - but ignore that the 24 bit Audio might have been obscurely converted to 16 bits

remember to use DPC Latency Checker too

http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml

and read
Setting Recording bit depth and Sample rate in Reaper

http://www.audiorecording.me/reaper-daw-tutorial-and-getting-started-quick-guide-for-beginners.html

and test your Audio hardware Bit Depth ( PC/Mac)  with
Bitter
Bitscope and Intersample Clip Monitor

http://www.stillwellaudio.com/plugins/specials/bitter/

A 64-bit bitscope and intersample clip indicator for your cost-free enjoyment.


kimyo

the pc contains a biostar A75MH FM1 motherboard, AMD A6-3500 2.1ghz Llano Triple-Core cpu, 4GB ram, and a sata3 ssd drive.

it happily runs multiple vst synths with multiple usb control surfaces and ableton's cpu meter stays around or below 20%.

no usb hubs, winxp is running in background services mode, the system never touches the internet, no anti-virus.

on another system i had some similar issues with the gr-55 when attached via usb (impaired tracking, tuner unresponsive/slow). 

Elantric

#9
Quoteit happily runs multiple vst synths with multiple usb control surfaces and ableton's cpu meter stays around or below 20%.

no usb hubs, winxp is running in background services mode, the system never touches the internet, no anti-virus.

Agreed - realize all the positive results you mention are focused on MIDI triggered Audio playback only - zero mention of real time Audio Input processing


Quoteon another system i had some similar issues with the gr-55 when attached via  USB HUB  (impaired tracking, tuner unresponsive/slow).

YEs - thats expected behaviour with the GR-55 when connected via ANY USB HUB - On Most Windows machines - I recommend connect the GR-55 via analog to a better sound card with low latency ASIO drivers

If working alone look at a Focusrite Scarlett 2i4

kimyo

Quote from: Elantric on January 12, 2014, 05:15:49 PMYEs - thats expected behaviour with the GR-55 when connected via USB

on one hand, i've very grateful to roland for the usb port.  uploading a patch is trivially simple, certainly when compared to keying in 500 or more parameters.

but, if you're going to provide an audio interface capability, it shouldn't render the product unusable. 

for instance, to tune i'd first have to shut ableton down, disconnect the usb cable, cycle power to the gr-55.  then, afterwards, reconnect/reboot everything.  5 minutes to do something that should take 30 seconds.

Elantric

#11
Quotebut, if you're going to provide an audio interface capability, it shouldn't render the product unusable. 

Try the GR-55 with any Macbook Pro and the Roland GR-55 Core Audio OSX USB Drivers  - and your opinion of the GR-55 Audio over USB characteristics  / latency should change significantly for the better.

Quotefor instance, to tune i'd first have to shut ableton down, disconnect the usb cable, cycle power to the gr-55.  then, afterwards, reconnect/reboot everything.  5 minutes to do something that should take 30 seconds.

Thats not my experience - for me, the GR-55 onboard controls respond a bit more slowly anytime the USB is connected to a computer.

But i can still use the Tuner and all GR-55 operations.

See if you can try GR-55 with USB using a different computer. Some MOBO's and CPU Chipsets do not play well with the GR-55.   

and remember the Roland GR-55 ASIO is NOT a multiclient USB driver - you only get to use one ASIO Audio interface and connect to one Windows audio app at a time   

kimyo

aha.  one of those 'i'm an idiot' moments. 

i had not updated the firmware.  i did so tonight and the usb performance is much better.  as you describe, it works more slowly, but cycling thru patches, tracking and tuning are now usable. 

that would also explain why i had the issue even when using a second computer. 

i've got the audio buffer set at 6 and have selected the 'use smaller asio buffer size'.  the latency is a bit longer than i'd like (ableton says 15.4ms). 

i'm going to fire asio4all up again and see how it works now that the unit is updated. also i'll turn the midi output back on. 

Elantric

I have no opinion here - just being the messenger

----
http://www.asio4all.com/
http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2014/6/20/asio4all-gets-first-major-update-in-4-years.html

ASIO4ALL have announced version 2.11, the first major update to this ASIO software for 4 years.

If you want to know more about ASIO4ALL then check out Neil's video here
http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2013/2/21/how-to-setup-asio4all-and-use-built-in-pc-soundcards-with-pr.html
On their web site they say;

"Combined 32/64 bit version, supports Win 98SE/ME/2k/XP/MCE/2003/XP64 and Vista/Windows 7/Windows 8.x x86/x64 After more than 4 years, of course, this is a *major* update!"

Changes In ASIO4ALL 2.11
The long list of changes since version 2.10 are;

Improvement: Make an attempt to reclaim an unavailable audio device, includes workaround for a (confirmed) Windows bug.
Improvement: Add general fixed factor resampling capabilty
Improvement: Latencies now displayed for the preferred buffer size, if host elects to violate the spec.
Improvement: Support for single common sample rate that is *not* a multiple of 8 or 11.05
Workaround: Realtek PULL mode not supported for "odd" ASIO buffer sizes. Symptom was a "Beyond Logic" error depending on ASIO buffer size.
Fix: Potential application compatibilty issue regarding ASIO reset request message Fix: Increased latency in x64 mode
Fix: Pull mode _and_ latency display now working
Fix: ASR issue with MSVC 2013 x64 -> Performance impact with hosts compiled with MSVC 2013
Fix: UI appearance with different system locale
Fix: Hang with some x64 hosts Fix: Crash on exit of A4Apanel64.exe
Fix: Minor memory leak
Fix: All known 2.11 Beta(1,2) regressions fixed!
More Information
For more information and to download ASIO4ALL 2.11 click here


http://www.asio4all.com/

kimyo

an update on my vg-55/usb experience:

it's just not usable in usb mode.  although the performance is better since i've updated, it still bogs down.  anyone going from using it direct to via usb will find the tuning and patch switching to be annoyingly slow.  it acts 'weird' and it's finicky, you don't have the peace of mind playing it that you'd typically expect with a piece of roland/boss gear. 

this has been my experience on multiple pc's, regardless of the presence or absence of asio4all. 

Elantric

Quotean update on my vg-55/usb experience:

it's just not usable in usb mode.  although the performance is better since i've updated, it still bogs down.  anyone going from using it direct to via usb will find the tuning and patch switching to be annoyingly slow.  it acts 'weird' and it's finicky, you don't have the peace of mind playing it that you'd typically expect with a piece of roland/boss gear. 

this has been my experience on multiple pc's, regardless of the presence or absence of asio4all.

All true -

FWIW - this "GR-55 ASIO USB Connectivity Slow Down" phenomena is much higher problem  for Windows users, while Mac OSX GR-55 users enjoy a more efficient GR-55 Core Audio USB Driver  - with less impact on the GR-55's operating performance. But know a USB connected GR-55 still bogs down to various degrees of sluggish controls for everyone. 

Vade

#16
ASIO4ALL - -   20 June 2014: Important!


There has been a mixup with the 2.11 downloads that has been corrected now. If you downloaded your ASIO4ALL 2.11 before having read this, please re-download and re-install!
Symptom of an old (broken) download would be stuttering playback with x64 hosts. Sorry for the inconvenience!

http://www.asio4all.com/
Drachen; Fender FTP Strat w/internal GK-3, Godin xtSA w/FTP, Boss GP-10, VoiceLive 3, Scarlett 18i8, ZBox IQ01, On-Lap 1502i, D:fine 4088, 4E Dual Axis Exp Pedal, VoiceSolo FX-150, Yamaha DXR 10, Gem. M2 Flute, Special 20 Harmonicas. Fender Deluxe Reverb Mahogany Cane.

https://soundcloud.com/vadie

Kevin M

I wouldn't use ASIO4ALL...just my opinion. I wouldn't use the GR-55 either. If you can plunk down the money for one, RME is a great brand to consider. Another option/brand could be a used MOTU 828 MK 2. I found one on eBay for about $250 and it worked great as a backup unit. That's obviously FireWire , though.

shawnb


I agree that if you have an audio interface, recording the GR-55's analog outs is the way to go. 

I've recorded using the GR-55's USB driver off & on over the years & haven't had issues on my (now aging) PC.  Then again, I haven't tried recording AND doing anything else - just plugged it in, selected the GR-55 inputs & recorded.  Most of my projects are simple. 

ASIO4ALL has its place.  I prefer not to use it, it is actually a wrapper around a Windows driver to make it look like an ASIO driver.  I prefer to keep things simple & clean & avoid wrappers.  However, I have had an experience or two in the past where ASIO4ALL really helped; my theory is that its buffering helped a device with a lousy driver.  Also, ASIO4ALL lets you use the ASIO configuration options within your DAW, which may make more sense to you.   It is an excellent solution to some problems, and it should be used as such - a workaround to a problem. 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Elantric

#19
I should also add ASIO4ALL is the only way you are going to be able to use One Audio Interface to drive multiple Windows Audio apps at the same time. In the initial Fishman Tripleplay docs they were very specific about the requirement for Windows FTP users to use ASIO4ALL, else problems would ensue launching NI Guitar Rig, Reaktor  and IK Samplitude all at once  - which is the typical routine for the FTP control panel and FTP factory presets. I think they fixed their VSTi routines  in later versions, but its still an issue for Windows users.

In other words - Windows Steinberg ASIO means you run this - OR this - OR this audio app

while Mac OSX Core Audio allows you to run this AND this AND this AND this, etc, etc. because OSX Core Audio natively supports multithreaded Audio Streams. Think of it like Audio Bus for IOS iPads. 

shawnb

#20
My understanding is that the 'single driver' limitation is an ASIO specification limitation.  It is not a Windows limitation.

Other driver types, e.g., WDM & WASAPI, have no such limitations & you can generally mix & match all you want.  It's only when a driver author actually implements to the Steinberg ASIO spec that you have issues. 

In ye olden days, I believe Steinberg wanted to ensure you would have rock-solid performance, & could only guarantee that if the single driver worked for one device for one application at a time. 

As of ASIO 2.0+, the spec finally allows one driver to be used among multiple applications.   My understanding is that the ASIO spec still doesn't allow multiple devices to feed the same application; they want to steer clear of variable latency issues. 

I guess that Mac's Core Audio simply works around that in a rewire-type fashion, an abstraction layer between the apps & drivers. 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

Kevin M

Quote from: shawnb on July 06, 2014, 05:43:10 PM

As of ASIO 2.0+, the spec finally allows one driver to be used among multiple applications.   My understanding is that the ASIO spec still doesn't allow multiple devices to feed the same application; they want to steer clear of variable latency issues. 


You can, however, use multiple devices so long as they share the same ASIO driver (eg a MOTU 828 and an Ultralite)

Elantric

#22
QuoteOther driver types, e.g., WDM & WASAPI, have no such limitations & you can generally mix & match all you want.  It's only when a driver author actually implements to the Steinberg ASIO spec that you have issues. 

True - but real world use of WDM & WASAPI Audio drivers reveal they are much high latency and worthless for any real time audio processing for real time performance. 

QuoteYou can, however, use multiple devices so long as they share the same ASIO driver (eg a MOTU 828 and an Ultralite)

True - thats because the MOTU ASIO Windows Driver is "ASIO Multi-Client" type

Other resources / references
=========================
http://midithru.net/

http://midithru.net/Home/AsioLink

http://midithru.net/Home/AsioLinkPro


http://www.kvraudio.com/product/wdm-asio-link-driver-pro-by-john-shield


http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=484.0

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/892445-multi-client-asio-audio-interfaces-under-400-a.html

http://vidance.com/asiomulti/asiomulti.html


http://www.thesycon.de/eng/usb_audiodriver.shtml

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov99/articles/pcmusician.htm


http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=299093

kimyo

another update: i switched from a gk-3 to a set of graphtech ghost piezos and there's a noticeable improvement.  tuning is much more responsive and patch changes seem to be more rapid/smooth when the gr-55 is connected via usb.

for almost all purposes i still intend to use the analog outs, but in a pinch it does look like usb will work for me.

(asio4all is not installed on my system at the moment)

Elantric

#24
Quoteanother update: i switched from a gk-3 to a set of graphtech ghost piezos and there's a noticeable improvement.  tuning is much more responsive and patch changes seem to be more rapid/smooth when the gr-55 is connected via usb.

I suggest this is a mental game - the GK-3 triggers same speed as all Piezo ( RMC/Ghost) pickup systems - and certainly has no bearing on the GR-55 patch change delay time


Another alternative ASIO driver -provides many interesting options

VB-Audio  Virtual Audio Cable, Voicemeeter Virtual Audio Mixer
http://vb-audio.pagesperso-orange.fr/Cable/

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=13328.msg97464#msg97464