IOS: Connecting USB Class Compliant MIDI / Audio (Battery Power)

Started by Elantric, September 24, 2013, 01:34:46 PM

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whippinpost91850

Elantric, what cable/cables are you using to hook your iPad to the Alesis speakers

Elantric

Scarlet 2i4, UA-22, SonicPort VX all have balanced TRS Outputs.

Been using a pair of 1/4" TRS cables to feed the XLR/TRS Combo input jack on Alesis Alpha 112A powered cabs.

whippinpost91850

Thanks, At the moment i only haave an iRig pro. So what cables would you use from iPad headphone out

Elantric

QuoteAt the moment i only haave an iRig pro. So what cables would you use from iPad headphone out

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10138.msg94596#msg94596

When using iRig Pro, I Feed the iPad Headphone out to a passive DI Box with 3.5mm TRS Stereo input and Balanced XLR Outputs -

like the Rolls DB24 $70
http://www.amazon.com/ROLLS-DB24-Stereo-Direct-Interface/dp/B001032GK8/ref=sr_1_1?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1417459136&sr=1-1&keywords=Rolls+DB24
http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=DB24





If you desire a bit higher quality and have the funds this works a bit better

Radial ProAV2 $179
http://www.amazon.com/Radial-ProAV2-XLR-RCA-Cables/dp/B00BH4XO1A/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1417459088&sr=1-1&keywords=Radial+ProAV2

http://www.radialeng.com/proav.php


and I'm modifying a Pyle PCD22 Stereo DI box  - adding a 3.5mm TRS Input

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00356J8KE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1




I like this box because its durable, low cost and provides "Feed thru" 1/4 jacks to send signals to stage monitor amps while also feeding balanced audio out to FOH PA via the XLR outs


---


EDIT: Jan 2015

Lately I'm using a Line 6 SonicPort VX - which allows me to charge the Ipad during use  - or allows use with FTP when a powered USB Hub is employed 


Elantric

Just an aside

Proof some folks are living under a rock - even at major news outlets , suggesting connecting something other than Headphones or other  third party hardware to an Apple IOS device with Lightning port is a "brand new concept" 

http://www.engadget.com/2015/01/13/lightning-accessory-program-specs/
QuoteApple already lets accessory makers use the Lightning port on iOS devices for headphones. However, it's reportedly close to opening the floodgates to more devices. And if 9to5Mac's leaked specs are accurate, the company will let these peripherals do more than you might expect. Lightning lets the iPhone send power and data to everything from game controllers to speakers, but it should also let you pass through other accessories at the same time. A dock could charge and sync your iPhone while you listen to music without needing a mess of extra cables, for instance. The connector should also charge battery-powered gear faster than the standard USB cables you use today.

There are limits. Apple's program reportedly allows just one Lightning port per accessory (possibly to avoid interference and power woes), so you won't see a hub that hooks up multiple iOS devices. Also, there are parts of the spec that are "to be determined," so you may see a few gotchas when the licensing system is ready. However, Apple's decision to skip standard micro-USB now makes a little more sense -- the reversible connector may be the most obvious difference, but you're also getting a slightly more sophisticated connection.
To which I posted:

"Ive been connecting Powered USB Hubs, 24 bit Audio Interfaces, MIDI Interfaces, USB Class Compliant devices to the "Apple Lightning USB Camera Adapter" for a few years now

http://ipad.about.com/b/2013/12/05/did-you-know-you-can-connect-a-wired-keyboard-to-your-ipad.htm

http://www.akaipro.com/kb/article/1502"

--------------

http://9to5mac.com/2015/01/12/details-on-apples-upcoming-lightning-port-specs-for-third-party-accessories/comment-page-1/#comment-234714



Details on Apple's upcoming Lightning port specs for third-party accessories

Apple-Lightning port-01

We previously told you that Apple will be licensing its female Lightning port to third-party accessories, following an announcement to Made for iPhone licensees late last year. Since then, the company has released specs for the Lightning port that details exactly what Apple hopes to achieve by opening it up to third-parties, including how it could improve accessories.



Many different accessories will use the female Lightning port. According to manufacturers briefed on Apple's specs, the company is hoping that a number of accessories adopt the Lightning port standard instead of micro-USB, including docks, battery cases, game controllers, headphones, and Bluetooth speakers. In these cases, Apple will allow the port to draw power from Apple or MFi-certified power adapters. The port may also be beneficial for manufacturers of Lightning cabled headphones, which are just starting to appear after announcements from JBL and Philips during last week's CES.

The port can directly charge, as well as offer passthrough charging and syncing. Apple will notably also allow passthrough charging and syncing of iOS devices connected to the Lightning accessory. According to Apple, passthrough-enabled accessories could include headphones, smart cases, and battery power banks. The iOS device would connect to the accessory via a built-in male Lightning plug (say, the connector inside a Mophie charging case), while a female Lightning port on the accessory's bottom would provide power via a Lightning cable to USB power adapter. Passthrough could also allow an accessory such as a dock to charge the iOS device while the user is simultaneously listening to Lightning headphones.

One port per accessory. Accessories can only include one Lightning port, according to Apple's specs, which might limit the ability to connect multiple devices to an accessory via Lightning. For example, multiple Lightning ports would otherwise in theory allow a splitter dongle — like those available for traditional headphones— to connect multiple sets of Lightning headphones to a single iOS device, or create a multi-port hub akin to a USB hub. Apple most likely wants to eliminate power drain and the potential for interference by reducing the number of simultaneous connections.

Fewer cables and power supplies. We noted in our previous report that using the Lightning port— opposed to USB— would reduce costs for manufacturers and simplify the product experience by allowing users to charge any Apple accessory using the Lightning cable that originally came with the device. Accessories wouldn't have to include a separate power supply and cable.

Faster charging. Another benefit of Lightning, according to Apple, is the ability to charge accessories faster than with USB. Apple notes that using the same Lightning cable plugged and power adapter that came with your iPhone (or a MFi-certified USB power adapter) allows charging of internal batteries at higher rates than with USB options, including the micro-USB port currently used for charging on most accessories. Accessories drawing power must be capable of pulling at least 1.0A from a power adapter, but Apple recommends 2.4A.

Apple doesn't detail specifics on limitations of charging via Lightning, but USB charging limits were thought to be amongst the reasons Apple went with its own Lightning connector in the first place. At the very least, accessories will be able to utilize the 12W USB charger Apple has available for iPads, which can step down to lower power output as necessary. Faster charging would be ideal for accessories with larger internal batteries, with Apple specifically mentioning game controllers, headphones and speakers as products that will benefit.

An uncertain timeline. Currently, the Lightning port is available in sample quantities for development purposes, but its specs for the component currently remain in Developer Preview mode; any products being developed will have to be tested with upcoming final specs before hitting the market. Some sections of the specs are listed as "to be determined." To the best of our knowledge, no third-party accessories with female Lightning ports were shown at CES this year.

The female Lightning port component provides yet another advantage to accessory makers enrolled in Apple's licensing program, but we'll have to wait to see if manufacturers adopt it. It's possible that the first accessory to take advantage of the port will come from Apple itself, as the company's Beats Electronics division could include it for recharging Bluetooth headphones. There are plenty of other applications, including ones that Apple hasn't yet disclosed, which could be even more interesting.





QuoteA dock could charge and sync your iPhone while you listen to music without needing a mess of extra cables, for instance. The connector should also charge battery-powered gear faster than the standard USB cables you use today.

I have been doing that already for years with these



whippinpost91850

Call me stupid! DUH! I still don't understand the need for the the Apple Camera adapter. Both my iRig Pro and Sonic port VX instructions show conecting them directly to iPad.  ???

whippinpost91850

Quote from:  whippinpost91850 on February 22, 2015, 12:57:54 PM
Call me stupid! DUH! I still don't understand the need for the the Apple Camera adapter. Both my iRig Pro and Sonic port VX instructions show conecting them directly to iPad.  ???
Bump for an answer????

Elantric

We use the Powered USB Hub between Ipad and Audio Interface (iRig Pro / SonicPort VX) so we can add an array of USB Class Compliant MIDI control devices ( Tripleplay, KMI SoftStep 2)

Read this thread for explanation as to when it's preferable to employ the USB connection (Apple USB Camera Adapter) with the Line -6 SonicPort.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=12278.msg99338#msg99338

utensil

Quote from:  whippinpost91850 on February 22, 2015, 12:57:54 PM
Call me stupid! DUH! I still don't understand the need for the the Apple Camera adapter. Both my iRig Pro and Sonic port VX instructions show conecting them directly to iPad.  ???

One scenario permitted by using the camera adapter is the use of Both a fishman triple play and the audio interface (in my case an Irig HD) at the same time. I.e you can send your midi and audio to ios and use different apps with audiobus to mix/match sounds to your imagination

whippinpost91850

So if I understand correctly now , camera adapter doesn't effect the sound of the guitar only what you utilities you can connect to an iPad
That being said, it has no effect on say the tones i get out of Bias, Tonestack, etc, using either my iRig Pro or Sonic Port VX

Elantric

QuoteSo if I understand correctly now , camera adapter doesn't effect the sound of the guitar only what you utilities you can connect to an iPad
That being said, it has no effect on say the tones i get out of Bias, Tonestack, etc, using either my iRig Pro or Sonic Port VX

Correct!

The Apple  USB Camera Adapter (and Powered USB Hub) makes no measurable impact on the latency or sonic capabilities of the connected Audio interface( iRig Pro, SonicPort VX, etc)

Review the Auria DAW for IOS Audio Interface site - most of the best iPad Audio interfaces employ the USB Camera Adapter / Camera Connection Kit(CCK)
http://auriaapp.com/Support/auria-audio-interfaces


By using the Apple USB Camera Adapter, this expands your options of what external hardware can be connected  tremendously  - by inserting a Powered USB Hub between the iPad and the Audio interface.

http://www.techhive.com/article/195013/article.html

IPad Camera Connection Kit Connects Other Things, Too
By Dan Frakes, MacworldApr 26, 2010 3:00 PMe-mailprint
Last week, anyone who pre-ordered Apple's iPad Camera Connection Kit began receiving the iPad accessory. The kit--which features one dock-connector adapter with an SD-card slot and a second one with a USB port--is designed to let you transfer your digital camera's photos to your iPad. But it turns out this accessory has a few other tricks up its metaphorical sleeve that just may make it more appealing to many iPad owners. None of this functionality is officially supported--at least not yet--so caveat emptor if you're thinking of buying the Kit just to get one or more of these features.

Audio: As Macworld contributor Glenn Fleishman first reported, standard USB-audio accessories--namely, USB headphones, headsets, and speakers--can be used with the iPad via the Camera Connection Kit's USB adapter. When you plug one of these audio accessories into the adapter's USB port, all audio is routed through the USB-audio accessory. If you're using a USB headset, the headset's microphone also works for audio-recording apps, as well as audio-chat apps such as Skype.

While I didn't have enough USB headphones, headsets, and speakers on hand to test this feature exhaustively, my results with a handful of devices confirm Glenn's experiences. In fact, the iPad treats a connected USB-audio accessory much like a set of headphones connected to the iPad's headphone jack: If you unplug the USB cable or adapter while music is playing via the iPod app, playback pauses. On the other hand, I did occasionally experience some odd echo-like distortion when using a USB headset.

Keyboards: The iPad is the first iPhone OS device to support external keyboards, but that support is officially limited to Bluetooth keyboards and Apple's iPad Keyboard Dock. After seeing Glenn's original article, I decided to plug in a bunch of other USB devices. While hard drives didn't work, some keyboards did.

Why only some? USB keyboards that provide higher-power USB ports for charging and syncing iPods and iPhones--including Apple's own aluminum models--require more power than the iPad's dock-connector port will provide. If you connect one of these keyboards to the Camera Connection Kit's USB adapter, you get an error message (see the image to the right) that the accessory is unavailable because it uses too much power.

If you connect a more miserly USB keyboard, however, the message you see states only that the attached USB device is not supported. Once you dismiss that error message, the keyboard functions much as any third-party Bluetooth keyboard: all standard keys work as expected, as do the volume and mute keys; the eject button toggles the iPad's onscreen keyboard. (See my article on the Keyboard Dock and Bluetooth keyboards for more details on how third-party keyboards function with the iPad.) We tested several third-party keyboards, including models from Matias and MacAlly, and they worked well. Logitech's Windows-focused Illuminated Keyboard, on the other hand, didn't work, likely because the keyboard draws additional power to provide backlighting for its keys.

If you're using Apple's standard iPad Dock, you can even plug the Camera Connection Kit's USB adapter into the Dock's own dock-connector port, letting you use a compatible USB keyboard with the iPad positioned in the Dock. If you don't have the iPad Dock, and you want to use a USB keyboard with the iPad in portrait orientation--say, in a third-party stand or dock--you'll need to turn the iPad upside-down (so the dock-connector port is at the top).



I abandoned further effort on all IOS/ USB Audio Interfaces that restrict all Audio I/O to iPad to 16 bits - Modern IOS Amp Sims ( Positive Grid BIAS/JAMUP PRO) reveal the shortcomings of 16 bit USB Audio. The latest iPads running IOS 6-7-8 now support Multi-channel 24 bit Audio.
http://auriaapp.com/Support/auria-audio-interfaces

You need 24 bits to run Modern IOS Guitar Amp Sims to get anywhere near a Kemper experience using Positive Grid Bias.  16 bits reveals its sonic limitations under this specific condition

Here's a rundown of my own discovered work around on trying to successfully get 3 different iPads (and now an Iphone 6 Plus on IOS 8 )  working with USB Class Compliant Audio and MIDI gear
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10323.msg74428#msg74428

whippinpost91850

Thanks Elantric , This answers all my lingering questions. Paul

Chumly

Hi Elantric,

This may be an unanswerable question given the subjective nature of audio performance, but I'm in the market for an audio interface and I've narrowed it down to the Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 or the Roland UA-22 based mostly on your perspectives.  I'm pretty fussy about noise floor, and headroom and from what you mention the 2i4 is a bit better in that respect as compared to the UA-22.  However I am also fussy about latency and from what I've read elsewhere, the U-22A may be a bit better than the i24 in that regard.

Also the UA-22 runs on batteries, which as you point out gives it better marks in terms of ease of use,  portability and AC power isolation.

FWIW, I own a Roland Octa-Capture UA-1010 as my non-mobile interface and I like it, but I do not have anything to directly compare it to.

I plan to use the new interface with a new iPad Air 2 64 GB, FTP, IK Sampletank, iOS Garageband Instruments, and Positive Grid BIAS.  Will a new iPad Air 2 64 GB suffice (it's supplied by my employer for free, so I have no other choices)?

I don't have any big reservations about powering the 2i4 via a USB hub etc. if it gives me better audio performance than the UA-22.
I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. - Richard P. Feynman

Elantric

Comparing them both, I give the Scarlett 2i4 the win on lowest noise floor
Edit - the Line6 SonicPort VX is even cleaner
But when used with a fresh charged set of NiMh AA batteries the UA-22 you can go 4 hours  - its a joy to simply connect the UA-22 directly to the Apple USB Camera Adapter  - no need for sorting out boot order, power on sequencing struggles with Powered USB Hubs - etc

If I was using the iPad for live Looping at the gig  - Id choose the UA-22 with fresh set of batteries   - with UA-22, you get good 24bit Audio, Balanced TRS outputs and a 5 pin MIDI I/O interface

Chumly

I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. - Richard P. Feynman

Elantric

FWIW -

We are only one week away from the release of the  iConnectAudio 4+ $299
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10419.msg75242#msg75242

Its supposed to be in stock and shipping this week and well worth considering


Also review the Line-6 SonicPort VX
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=12278.msg101129#msg101129




Chumly

Interesting and it appears to cover a fair amount of ground other comparable devices may not(?), however the large user base of the 2i4 plus its proven sonic quality gives me comfort, whereas I've been burned a number of times buying a promising item during the initial rollout, only to find that the product never equaled the promises, and support, drivers, software, etc. were not up to the task.

Now if iConnectivity were of the stature of Roland or Yamaha (or yes even Behringer) I would have more confidence in being a first-in, however it does not seem to be in that league.

Also there seems to be latency problems with their iConnectMIDI2+
I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. - Richard P. Feynman

GuitarBuilder

We know about the better noise performance of SonicPort VX and iRig Pro, but how about a comparison of Scarlett 2i4 and iConnectAUDIO4+?  Any differences?
"There's no-one left alive, it must be a draw"  Peter Gabriel 1973

Elantric

Quotehow about a comparison of Scarlett 2i4 and iConnectAUDIO4+
At this hour the Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 has lower noise / better audio performance than iConnectAudio 4+ -

But iConnectivity are working on a solution
http://www.iconnectivity.com/AudioBuzzIssue
http://www.iconnectivity.com/forum#/discussion/228/ipad-cannot-use-device-n-iconnectaudio4-the-connected-device-is-not-supported

https://www.facebook.com/iConnectivityAudioMIDI?_rdr

Elantric

I recently acquired a Focusright ITrack Dock for testing with the iPad Air for use with Positive Grid BIAS FX

What a disaster. It's a world of Hum and noise when used for any real time  Guitar Amp Sim.
So far all my tests reveal  that  iOS audio interfaces that also charge the iPad/iPhone during use deliver very poor results, with major impact negative impact on the Signal to Noise ratio.


It's possible if you employ a 12Volt battery to power the ITrack Dock, that could be a solution , but it requires 1.5Amps!

So far the best sounding/ lowest Noise floor "All in one box with Stereo XLR Mic preamps and MIDI I/O performance is the Roland UA-22 Duo Capture EX when run on its own internal battery. No hassles with power up order or other spaghetti
EDIT: Read new details below!


The Line-6 SonicPort VX is good too, but no MIDI I/O.
The IK Multimedia IRig Pro is Good, has MIDI In , but you only have the iPad Headphone jack for output

The iConnectAudio 4+ also suffers poor noise floor - due to charging the iPad, and the Output Lack the drive compared to iTrack Dock
The iTrack Dock on Battery Power matches the performance of my Scarlett 2i4

Start at top of this thread and review all the steps for getting the Scarlett 2i4 working. Only hurdle is that it's not plug and play, instead specific connection order and power on sequencing order must be memorized, which could be a potential disaster at a live gig.

FWIW all above were tested using a battery powered Roland Cube Street EX To prevent Ground Loops and several guitars : Godin xtsa, Line-6 JTV -59

===


After my Hum City disaster running Focusrite iTrack Dock on its supplied AC Power supply (see above) ,   I decided to re-try the Focusrite iTrack Dock - this time with 12VDC Battery Power. My PowerAdd 32000mAH External recharge-able Battery Pack running at 12VDC.
  This works very well. I connected My Guitar into the Ch#1 Hi-Z Instrument Input, and set the top mounted Ch#1 Input Level Midway up.

The Focusrite iTrack Dock 1/4" TRS Stereo Monitor Outputs connected with two 1/4" TS cables into the Stereo Line Inputs on my Battery powered Roland Cube Street EX.
I've been playing with PG BIAS FX on my iPad AIR for 2 hours - love this app, love the tones - it become very robust and still the best sounding amps and FX - even got a good Surf sound - very authentically modeled FX. This setup now  Works much better compared to running the same iPad interface on AC Power supply.

The  Focusrite iTrack Dock has much Higher Output drive  / Lower Noise  characteristics compared to the iConnectAudio4+
And I only needed the stock DC Supply cable that came with the Poweradd Pilot Pro
http://www.amazon.com/Poweradd-Pilot-Pro-Multi-Voltage-Compatible/dp/B00DN0KBXU/ref=sr_1_47?s=wireless&ie=UTF8&qid=1435738978&sr=1-47&refinements=p_4%3APoweradd

Played for 2 hours and battery only drained 10%






Details
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14655.msg112066#msg112066

alancarl

Hi Steve and everybody contributing to this thread!
Life is too short for switching power supply noises!
Anyway I purchased and returned a Focusrite Itrack Dock because the sub port for sub midi devices didn't work with a few of my devices including my Logidy UM-I 3 pedal.
The issue was not power relegated as I tried a few sub powered hubs as well.
I was told that the Itrack's sub port was a little problematic but it did work with Novation usb midi devices.
If anybody has been successful with this port and say a FTP or Korg Nano do tell:-)
Thanks
Al

Elantric

You must do things in a specific order.
Unplug everything
Power up IPad
Connect IPad to iTrack Dock
Power up iTrack Dock
Connect USB MIDI device

ITrack Dock USB Host port (on rear) works with MIDI USB CLASS COMPLIANT hardware only.

So far I have used

KMI SoftStep2 MIDI Footcontroller




alancarl

I'll have to get ahold of the Itrack dock again and try this... It's been a month since I tried it out and I'm thinking I might have had the iPad and the Itrack dock both powered up when I connected them and they were happy so I was happy until I connected my Logidy(which is usb class compliant)
Thanks Steve,
Al

Elantric

Quoteso I was happy until I connected my Logidy(which is usb class compliant)

I'll make a test tonight of what iTrack USb Host Port works with, and post the list.

(we own similar gear)