Gr-33 with Godin xtsa- No sound!

Started by LWitherspoon, December 16, 2022, 12:10:51 AM

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LWitherspoon

I just bought a secondhand gr-33. Recently bought a Godin xtsa and the 13 pin gk cable needed. Finally got them all hooked up...no sound. Tried various things, including a factory reset. Nothing works but the patch changes. That goes through. When I put it in tuner mode, no note shows up when I play. Words cannot express how disappointed i am. I've wanted this kind of setup for about 20 years and was finally able to sorta afford it. I would very much appreciate any help to determine if my gear is faulty or if there's some trick.

admin

Quote from: LWitherspoon on December 16, 2022, 12:10:51 AMI just bought a secondhand gr-33. Recently bought a Godin xtsa and the 13 pin gk cable needed. Finally got them all hooked up...no sound. Tried various things, including a factory reset. Nothing works but the patch changes. That goes through. When I put it in tuner mode, no note shows up when I play. Words cannot express how disappointed i am. I've wanted this kind of setup for about 20 years and was finally able to sorta afford it. I would very much appreciate any help to determine if my gear is faulty or if there's some trick.
debug with headphones direct to GR-33 headphone output

be sure you are connecting external amp to GR-33 MIX Outputs

LWitherspoon

Quote from: admin on December 16, 2022, 01:19:11 AMdebug with headphones direct to GR-33 headphone output

be sure you are connecting external amp to GR-33 MIX Outputs

I tried headphones and also going out through the guitar out into an amp.

gumtown

It could be any of the 3 main points.
Guitar
GK cable
GR-33

Be very handy if you have a friend who has a GK setup,
But failing that, maybe go to a local music instrument store with your guitar and GK cable to test out a SY-1000 or GR-55 so you can find out if that gear you have works.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

admin

Quote from: LWitherspoon on December 16, 2022, 10:04:43 AMI tried headphones and also going out through the guitar out into an amp.

Guitar Out  will not work - unless many prior steps are considered and checked



gumbo

#5
Where did the 13-pin cable come from... ;)    eBay 'compatible' item ?

...try another one first and see what happens...

or...Buy a $10 multimeter and check your existing cable for one-for-one continuity and NO cross talk..
Read slower!!!   ....I'm typing as fast as I can...

LWitherspoon

Quote from: gumtown on December 16, 2022, 11:16:19 AMIt could be any of the 3 main points.
Guitar
GK cable
GR-33

Be very handy if you have a friend who has a GK setup,
But failing that, maybe go to a local music instrument store with your guitar and GK cable to test out a SY-1000 or GR-55 so you can find out if that gear you have works.

Right. I'm trying here before I do that though. My local music store is unfortunately not very helpful when it comes to problems like this.

LWitherspoon

Quote from: admin on December 16, 2022, 11:50:53 AMGuitar Out  will not work - unless many prior steps are considered and checked




I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that after performing a full factory reset, the guitar out will not work without many steps being taken?
Wouldn't tuner mode (at the very least) still shown notes being played when i strum?

gumbo

With respect, you are talking about a synth unit that is all as old as the time you have been waiting to acquire it...it is obviously secondhand and in that time anything could have gone wrong with it.

The guitar you have bought was probably not the best choice to pair with it, has an unknown (?) history of the condition of its electronics and you haven't said where you got the 13-pin cable from....and whether that is new or secondhand also.

Any one (or a combination) of these things could be causing the problems, and a number of us have attempted to guide you in the directions you need to proceed in order to trouble-shoot the situation.

Your question about the purpose/use of the Guitar Out jack would seem to indicate that you do not have a copy of the GR-33 User Manual...it may also help you to download that for free...

https://www.roland.com/au/support/by_product/gr-33/owners_manuals

...and fully read and understand that before further attempts at solving the problem.

My comments here and previous relating to the attempted use of what may (?) be an INcompatible 13-pin cable should be the first thing that you investigate because, apart from the fact that after-market cables on eBay (and elsewhere) that are listed as suitable for this purpose, sometimes they are NOT.

Not only can these cables cause the sort of problems that you describe, their use can ALSO inflict SERIOUS DAMAGE to the synth unit, as there is a potential for the conductors in the cable that supply the 7-volt power from the synth unit to the hex pickup in the guitar to be mis-directed to other components.

We are trying to help you, based upon the (loose) information that you have provided...and that is all we can go on, in order to attempt to provide you with a starting point for diagnosis.

Replace and/or at least check out the 13-pin cable FIRST, before 'trying' other means of solving the problem...the only way to get you through this is to systematically work your way through testing the various things that could be the cause (or part of) the problem.

When the cable is checked out with a multimeter as I suggested earlier, apart from the need for there to be a one-to-one continuity between each of the 13 pins, THERE ALSO has to be continuity between the outer metal 'shell' of each of the jackplugs at each end of the cable.   The outer metal shell of the jackplugs provides the main 'Ground' circuit between the guitar and the synth unit...if this is not happening, it can cause exactly what you are experiencing.

Sometimes within the jackplugs of a cheap and/or after-market cable, the outer screen within the cable is only connected to the shell of the jackplug by a half-hearted crimping within the strain relief portion of the jackplug's internals....this can cause the Ground circuit to be deficient or intermittent.

If all the 13-pins check out as ok, but not the Ground circuit, it's possible that the cable can be repaired, but we will need to talk you though what is necessary to do that.

Mostly, things can be sorted with time and effort....and it is VERY possible that you will never get all this stuff to work straight out of the box, because if nothing else, probably a good proportion of what you have there is a couple of decades old and with also a potentially unknown history.  It's all about reality of expectations of gear that may have suffered the ravages of time before you hit it with your wallet.

Work with us on this, and we will help you the best we can....miracles can sometimes take a little longer than first thought.   ;)

Cheers,
Peter 

Read slower!!!   ....I'm typing as fast as I can...

philjynx

Quote from: LWitherspoon on December 17, 2022, 02:11:22 AMRight. I'm trying here before I do that though. My local music store is unfortunately not very helpful when it comes to problems like this.
I don't think Gumtown is suggesting that you enlist the store to help you with this problem.


The suggestion is that you use one of their GK units to test your guitar and lead in the guise of trying out their machine.

Of course, if you do happen to have a Kenwood CD autochanger lead, missold as a GK lead, you might blow up their unit. 🙄

LWitherspoon

Quote from: gumbo on December 16, 2022, 06:55:15 PMWhere did the 13-pin cable come from... ;)    eBay 'compatible' item ?

...try another one first and see what happens...

or...Buy a $10 multimeter and check your existing cable for one-for-one continuity and NO cross talk..

The 13 pin cable is new and came from a local store.

As far as a multimeter, I didn't know they exist. I'll have to look that up.

LWitherspoon

Quote from: gumbo on December 17, 2022, 06:30:07 AMThe guitar you have bought was probably not the best choice to pair with it, has an unknown (?) history of the condition of its electronics and you haven't said where you got the 13-pin cable from....and whether that is new or secondhand also.


The guitar is the best choice for my needs. It was bought new with a repaired defect in the wood of the neck. From Reverb.

The 13-pin cable was bought new from a local shop. It was $100. It's a Roland GKC-5 13 pin cable.

Quote from: gumbo on December 17, 2022, 06:30:07 AMAny one (or a combination) of these things could be causing the problems, and a number of us have attempted to guide you in the directions you need to proceed in order to trouble-shoot the situation.

Your question about the purpose/use of the Guitar Out jack would seem to indicate that you do not have a copy of the GR-33 User Manual...it may also help you to download that for free...


THERES A USER MANUAL??

No, I have it and have read it quite a bit.
But a manual is a reference. To some degree, it helps to know where to look. I haven't had any luck after what I'd consider to be a fair amount of effort, so I came here. I don't have time to live with this synth and manual and get to know it...I need to return what's not working while I have the chance.

The rest of your answer was extremely informative, and I appreciate the time you took to write it. I'm really hoping to be able to afford something I can use and be able to learn. Having never owned a guitar synth, I don't have your level of expertise. I am admittedly a novice, and I'm hoping I don't need that level of knowledge to get started.

LWitherspoon

Quote from: philjynx on December 17, 2022, 08:02:40 AMI don't think Gumtown is suggesting that you enlist the store to help you with this problem.


The suggestion is that you use one of their GK units to test your guitar and lead in the guise of trying out their machine.



I guess I'm assuming these local shops won't carry GK units since no one seemed to know what a 13-pin cable was. That is definitely worth a try though. Thank you!

Quote from: philjynx on December 17, 2022, 08:02:40 AMOf course, if you do happen to have a Kenwood CD autochanger lead, missold as a GK lead, you might blow up their unit. 🙄

This sounds like there's an interesting story behind it lol.

gumbo

Quote from: LWitherspoon on December 17, 2022, 09:31:09 AMTHERES A USER MANUAL??

No, I have it and have read it quite a bit.
But a manual is a reference. To some degree, it helps to know where to look. I haven't had any luck after what I'd consider to be a fair amount of effort, so I came here. I don't have time to live with this synth and manual and get to know it...I need to return what's not working while I have the chance.


Products such as these (can) have a reasonable learning curve...if you cannot spare the time or effort to get to know what you are attempting to fix, sadly there's not a lot that any of us can do for you.

BTW, some 'new' things don't work straight out of the box either....and that includes a Roland cable...

It would appear that your choices simply come back to either returning the GR-33 or delving more deeply and sorting out what is wrong/defective.  It could still end up being something quite simple, but you may have to dig a bit to find it.

I'm sure we all wish you luck with whatever your choice turns out to be.
Read slower!!!   ....I'm typing as fast as I can...

LWitherspoon

Quote from: gumbo on December 17, 2022, 01:25:33 PMProducts such as these (can) have a reasonable learning curve...if you cannot spare the time or effort to get to know what you are attempting to fix, sadly there's not a lot that any of us can do for you.



Ouch. Alright buddy. First you scoffed at my choice in guitar. You've disapproved of me asking for help for this from the start. Now what exactly do you think I am doing wrong by posting here? How can I spend time and effort getting to know what I'm attempting to fix without first having owned a working unit? And I have put plenty of effort into it, going through the menus, adjusting string sensitivity, trying to go in the midi in with another device, doing a factory reset, etc..then going through all that again. All the while with a downloaded copy of the manual I've been referencing. Is that not good enough? I guarantee you, if I had all new gear (can't afford it) and was reasonably sure it w could be expected to work, I would take the time and effort all on my own. That's how I learned guitar in the first place, btw. I'm here to get advice from folks who HAVE had an opportunity to play with this stuff, not to be scoffed at for my choice of guitar or scolded for not putting the time and effort into it. What kinda help forum is this? You just sit and tell people they really should go figure it out themselves? What you doing here if you feel that way?

Tonemasterus

No disrespect but I need to know if you know the following:

The XTSA has a synth/guitar/blend switch have you made sure that it is in the correct position?

When you tried the midi in from another keyboard you will need to make sure that the midi input is set to Omni or that the midi channels match between controller and gr33.  If either is true and you get no sound out of the headphones then the unit is bad.  If you do get sound then either the 13pin cable is bad, you didn't have the above switch in the correct position or the guitar synth out is not working.

The guitar out will only produce dry guitar out and the guitar switch would need to be in the mix or guitar position and I believe there would be some menu diving to make sure that the guitar out is set up correctly.

Another thing to keep in mind is you will need a lot of patience to troubleshoot this type of setup. So when someone refers you to the manual there needs to be some understanding of it to direct you in the right direction.

I have both the XTSA and the GR-33 so if there is any other questions I can help you with feel free to reach out.

Hope you get it sorted out!

David



Brak(E)man

Quote from: LWitherspoon on December 17, 2022, 09:31:09 AM————————
Having never owned a guitar synth, I don't have your level of expertise. I am admittedly a novice, and I'm hoping I don't need that level of knowledge to get started.

I'd say you've had bad luck, I've bought secondhand units such as the GR33 and they've worked straight out of the box.
To get the best out from them it's another story and requires a bit of work.

The problem is that you have 3 sources ( as mentioned) that can be the culprit.
Guitar
Cable
GR33
And it's difficult to help without you having the possibility to try and find which part that's the problem.
See if you can try the guitar+cable at the local store with another unit, since you bought the cable there, they should be able to assist in that way at least

Good luck and if there's help to get , I'm positive you'll get it on this forum.



swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

LWitherspoon

Quote from: Tonemasterus on December 18, 2022, 05:30:25 AMNo disrespect but I need to know if you know the following:

The XTSA has a synth/guitar/blend switch have you made sure that it is in the correct position?


Understandable. Yes. I've also been referencing the user manual for the Godin to make sure I'm using it correctly. Switching fully to my far right sets it to synth output. Strangely, the other switch on the guitar that sends patch changes works fine.

Quote from: Tonemasterus on December 18, 2022, 05:30:25 AMWhen you tried the midi in from another keyboard you will need to make sure that the midi input is set to Omni or that the midi channels match between controller and gr33.  If either is true and you get no sound out of the headphones then the unit is bad.  If you do get sound then either the 13pin cable is bad, you didn't have the above switch in the correct position or the guitar synth out is not working.


I'm a little confused here. The only midi input setting available that I'm aware of is the "Basic Channel" in the settings menu. My device is sending midi on channel 1. I've set the Roland's basic channel to "poly 1". Nothing happens. "Mono 1"...nothing.

Quote from: Tonemasterus on December 18, 2022, 05:30:25 AMThe guitar out will only produce dry guitar out and the guitar switch would need to be in the mix or guitar position and I believe there would be some menu diving to make sure that the guitar out is set up correctly.


Right. I do understand that. I only went out that way to see if I can get any sound at all going through the unit. If some setting I have is wrong, I'd think it would at least let me hear dry guitar output. But no. Absolutely nothing I've done on this thing has caused it to make any sound.

Quote from: Tonemasterus on December 18, 2022, 05:30:25 AMAnother thing to keep in mind is you will need a lot of patience to troubleshoot this type of setup. So when someone refers you to the manual there needs to be some understanding of it to direct you in the right direction.


I understand that. I am not the sort of person that starts blabbing in a place like this without having first done my part which is to read the manual for myself. It already seems to me like something isn't functioning as it should be, I'm just double checking here to make sure I didn't miss anything stupid or that there isn't some trick I'm not aware of. I very much appreciate it.

LWitherspoon

Quote from: Brak(E)man on December 18, 2022, 06:00:56 AMI'd say you've had bad luck, I've bought secondhand units such as the GR33 and they've worked straight out of the box.
To get the best out from them it's another story and requires a bit of work.

The problem is that you have 3 sources ( as mentioned) that can be the culprit.
Guitar
Cable
GR33
And it's difficult to help without you having the possibility to try and find which part that's the problem.
See if you can try the guitar+cable at the local store with another unit, since you bought the cable there, they should be able to assist in that way at least

Good luck and if there's help to get , I'm positive you'll get it on this forum.





I appreciate it. Along with tinkering with the unit, reading the manual and the internet, and getting advice here, I do want to try out the place where I bought the cable. Unfortunately, I don't remember seeing anything as far as pedals or whatnot that would have an input for this cable. I've got to call and see, but their hours are difficult with my work schedule. I tried calling another local guitar store, and they do have a synth pedal, but it takes the 5 pin cable not the 13. Thanks for the input. I receive good input, unlike this stupid pedal...

gumbo

Quote from: LWitherspoon on December 18, 2022, 04:24:37 AMOuch. Alright buddy. First you scoffed at my choice in guitar. You've disapproved of me asking for help for this from the start. Now what exactly do you think I am doing wrong by posting here? How can I spend time and effort getting to know what I'm attempting to fix without first having owned a working unit?

All I am saying is that you simply have described a situation that could be the result of a number of different things that are either not working as intended or are compounding  another, as yet unidentified problem that may be due to the ravages of age.

I believe at least a couple of replies from other Forum members have basically said the same thing...your replies to these attempts to help you have not always seemed to acknowledge that there is an inherent degree-of-difficulty in trying to diagnose the cause of the problem without first understanding that it it is largely a case of one working through all the steps in turn, in order to determine exactly where the root of the problem lies.

It can be a pain in the @rse, but it is simply a process of elimination, and there can therefore ALSO be a natural order in which to approach those steps so that one is not spending inordinate amounts of time (and frustration) going over and over the same thing without realising that a previous, untried 'step' may have been able to eliminate the need for subsequent steps.

So you're frustrated, and I've upset your apple cart...that's your perogative and your problem...I'm just someone trying to help you from the other side of the World and for free.
I have NO ownership of your problem and you have my permission to deal with it in whatever way you feel comfortable.

All I have been really suggesting is that you find a way of checking out the CABLE in the first place, because if that is not working correctly you will be able to spend a whole lot of time trying to find a fault somewhere else, without ANY result.

It's sort of like trying to diagnose over the phone someone's problem of the light in the room not working...
...you first have to find out whether:
They paid the last power bill
They checked the correct circuit breaker
They turned on the correct switch
They tried replacing the light globe with one that is KNOWN to work

When the person at the other end of the phone doesn't even go looking for the last power bill receipt, we all glaze over until some semblance of order returns to the situation.

...and at almost 75 years old, I don't need to be anybody's 'Buddy' in order to have a happy day.

Once again, I genuinely wish you luck with solving your problem.

Read slower!!!   ....I'm typing as fast as I can...

LWitherspoon

Quote from: gumbo on December 18, 2022, 04:55:19 PMAll I am saying is



I can respect that. We are most likely coming at this from very different perspectives, and therein lies the speedbump which my apple cart ran over at an unreasonable speed. Had this exchange taken place in real life, I don't doubt that it would've ended with me requesting a jam session. I'd...just have to figure out how to get this pedal working...

Thank you for attempting to help me. It's good that people put time and effort into helping others for no reason other than to be kind.

Ripprock

Hello. I just purchased a Godin XTSA. I see that you have also and are having issues with no sound. I am curious, have you plugged your guitar straight in to see if just the acoustic part of your XTSA is fully functional? ie, all strings are sounding correct. The acoustic is coming from the piezo pickups that also control the 13-pin output for the synth. I had an issue with my just-purchased XTSA. The 6th string piezo was faulty. When addressed sound returned. Thanks and good luck with your synth journey.


LWitherspoon

Quote from: Ripprock on December 19, 2022, 06:55:14 AMHello. I just purchased a Godin XTSA. I see that you have also and are having issues with no sound. I am curious, have you plugged your guitar straight in to see if just the acoustic part of your XTSA is fully functional? ie, all strings are sounding correct. The acoustic is coming from the piezo pickups that also control the 13-pin output for the synth. I had an issue with my just-purchased XTSA. The 6th string piezo was faulty. When addressed sound returned. Thanks and good luck with your synth journey.

Yes. I've plugged both others in and they work. The acoustic sounds a little less...acoustic than I had expected, but that may have to do with what I was running it into. Glad to hear your issue was resolved.