New here from Oz...interesting project, hex pups, etc

Started by warmingtone-fgn, October 09, 2011, 02:59:38 AM

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MCK-fgn

Great news! I am very interested in your experience with this unit. Best of luck with the installation.
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gumbo-fgn

Hey W-T...

...somewhere on the TDPRI (I think under the B-Bender Forum) I posted a few months back about the 'baseplate' that I made to go under the Bigsby Palm Pedal fitted to my Tele 72 Custom RI..this had to be (as a result of the design of the BPP) made in two pieces, but it was all about giving a base to the BPP that would wrap around the edge of the guitar body and allow me to mount it right on the edge of the guitar....   this was to give maximum room behind the bridge.

My design fundamentals were copied from (I like to think I 'referenced'..  :-)  ) the way the baseplate of a normal Hipshot B-Bender baseplate wraps around the edge of the guitar body and picks up the strap button mounting screw....this takes a good deal of the tension and stops the whole thing being ripped out of the face of the body when you tune it up..   :-)

Seems to me (having only a basic idea of the construction of your guitar in that region) that you could possibly benefit from a similar solution, rather than try to fix the Trilogy straight to the face of the guitar..

...perhaps that's what you plan to do anyway, and I haven't picked up on that...    but then...  it is only Wednesday here...     ::)



Talk soon, Buddy!

ps

I have a great BBQ apron!!!      ;D

warmingtone-fgn

Thanks gumbo

well, in fact I was going to do a normal arch-top tail attached to the back of the body. They in fact make such a base plate designed for drobos that would have worked. But this is not a traditional arch-top so I thought I'd try attaching it with the face as there is an end-block. So, I am able to arrange it so the back screws into that and two more into the top. I suspended it on a cushion of neoprene so it 'floats' above the top but is solid at the rim. The tail-piece version is an inch longer (I have the specs if anyone needs them) and I think I was right in that might 'overpower' the look of the thing on this guitar. This basic version is about 3" square and about an inch high so a bit chunky. Not as elegant as the thing I was trying to make and envisaged, but more than does the job I had envisaged...still...







I figured I'd give this a go and I can always try the tail if it didn't work. Seems to be ok though...does not even make much of a difference to the acoustic sound which is good. It is quite heavy, but then the guitar was neck heavy and light...so it all balanced out ok. Measure up, 4 screws, 5 mins and ready for stringing. It is holding fine, but I intend when I open up another 'door' in the size to glue in some strengtheners for the screws to bite into on the top just to be sure.

New strings so things are still settling. I soldered the ball ends to be sure but it is probably nit necessary, just a precaution. Fast stringing. Adjusting the tuning a bit tedious and not entirely sure what I want to try. However, I ahve tried a few things and once things are set, there should not be much need to adjust anything other than to be sure the guitar is in tune in the first place.

The action is smooth and easy to do, even using them mid tune, like a bender I guess....quite a solid feel like changing gears in a car. You can give the leavers a bit of an extra drop and pull up if anything is a bit sticky. So far though, other than the strings still needing to break in...the low E will drop to D and even C very accurately for instance. You just make sure the guitar is in tune, lower the leaver and use an Allen key to tune that note, then another screw of the third note. As long as the string gauge is the same and the string is in tune, it should not require any more tweaking.

Not entirely sure about how the thing is aligned, perhaps it needs to be 5mm further across (there is some bridge nagle for intonation that might be causing an illusion as it was all measured up), but working perfectly and there does not seem to be anything that can go wrong with the system. I tried to blend it in with the guitar a bit more, but that didn't seem to work, but the look improves dramatically with the black knobs planned for the electronics.

Anyway, I can report that it does what it says it can (as long as the guitar is ok with a straight string pull and graphite nut and locking tuners and all that...as this guitar has) but can 'look' a bit 'chunky'. One could get around that if you were building an entirely custom guitar I guess, but it is not too bad. Might have to watch for action though, if using very light strings and dropping them it might get a bit floppy and extreme low notes especially will need room to vibrate without hitting frets. This guitar has a 'medium action' and 10-52 strings on a longer fender scale and generic fender style neck and seems to be fine dropping string below standard. The build quality is amazing, well plated and built like a tank!

So, more planning ordering and waiting for parts. I head the magnets have shipped to the hex experiments to be continued into something more 'evolved'. I need to get some more components that might give out a stronger signal, these are coming from hong kong, so it is hard to guess how long that might take. Since I am ordering from overseas, I might combine some other stuff with it and take a bit of a break from things for a bit...play some guitar!






warmingtone-fgn

Just dropping by, got to do a bit more construction work on the guitar, cut a hatch ready for the extensive electronics to go in the thing, but this allowed access to the insides and do a better install on the Trilogy. Have posted more pics of it in thread on that this evening...

Besides the 'bells and whistles' of this project, it is an exceptionally 'ergonomic' guitar to play, not too big thick or large..the extreme neck angle feels like it is wrapped around you, no sharp body corners, the strings high above the board and creates a nice angle for the right hand to the strings...this side view shows some of these aspects plus the side piezo controls and tuner...



The hatch for the output jacks and getting the electronics looks like having 4x phone sockets...



The three knobs are in their rough positions for the pic...but gives an idea of the minimalist look. The volume is close to the playing position but below the string plane, the next one is a blender between piezo and mag sounds and the third a volume for the hex output. Inside the F holes will be a few switches, a series/parallel switch for the HB and perhaps a two position 'tone switch' for a more jazzy tone capability. I may also include a power off switch as I do tend to leave guitars plugged in. Total battery consumption is extremely low.

The Hex system is still a big unknown and awaiting parts, but significantly advanced in the planning stages for the new design. This is likely to be extremely compact, on my guitar include string selection switches that are very intuitive and go to a separate output and preamp and output. Likely on this guitar, it will be supported just forward of the bridge on a kind of 'outrigger' from below.

For the design I am creating, it is a prototype of course, but aiming for something similar in size to a Roland GK pup...probably 10mm wide and 5mm thick and the width of the strings. There is a potential for such devices to be put to a multiple of uses and to be chained together in any number and fit on the widest range of instruments from acoustic guitars to basses perhaps with little if any modification. Obviously hand making anything in miniature is tricky at best and there are a lot of stages required and input of others to get something that not only works but has the widest application. The accent though is on an effective audio signal, not so much to drive a synth but could be wired in numerous ways and put to a range of uses. My application is tricky but mono...it is a good test application though as it needs to work effectively with all six selected as it does with just one or two strings and requires good separation.

This aspect of the project, which has become it's own thing now, may take a bit of time. I received the all important magnets, but other parts are coming from all over the globe it seems...plus, need to have this guitar in hand which is after all the main game for me...the hex is in some ways tinsel...but then, what others might do with it has me excited about the prospects for such a device if successful and this is a great test bed for the whole she-bang...

Oh...and a postcard of tonight's red sunset for those interested in island life...


warmingtone-fgn



First prototype in the making of a completely new type of pickup concept and technology....hmmm

irksomeremnant

This looks to me like some neos haphazardely arranged for a photo op .....got any photos of the finished item? (or how about a soundclip?)

warmingtone-fgn

This looks to me like some neos haphazardely arranged for a photo op .....got any photos of the finished item? (or how about a soundclip?)

Well, one has to wonder why anyone would do that...and even more why one would think that of my attempts...but it is a wide world I guess....hmmm


QuoteThis looks to me like some neos haphazardely arranged for a photo op .....got any photos of the finished item? (or how about a soundclip?)

Yes, there are a central strip of neodymium magnets but as we all know, the magnets are not going to do anything on their own are they. I revisited the 'technology' I was working with in 2004 on sustainer drivers like this one...



in the pick-up's case, it incorporates 12 tiny coil elements to be noise cancelling and a novel magnet structure despite the simplicity of the apparent design. Yes, it may seem 'haphazard' but what would one expect from a one off prototype for my own personal use...chrome plating.

However, while it did make quite a decent low impedance signal, when combined it did not succeed in the separation necessary. In an effort to try and correct this with smaller magnetics or at lest see if that helps the prototype was broken....these things are fragile and set in epoxy...or would you prefer a conspiracy of some sort? When I came here I offered to share some work I was doing for myself Irk and on my first post here and introduced myself as such...I guess we are vastly different in out approach and motivations there. It would hardly be expected that I CNC some shiny object to prove the concept now would it, or would it now?

Yes, while I was able to make a decent pickup and mild separation in this approach, it failed to meet the task assigned, as did hacking tape heads and a few other experiments...that is the nature of such endeavours I hope you understand. Each failure of sorts is a learning curve and the fact that it did work as a new kind of magnetic pickup is in part an achievement and without string pull at that!

Fortunately I have other plans for approaching the problem and will continue the work because I personally would like to have and to own such a device and it is not something that is available at the present time.

Looks can of course be deceiving of course, but the 'idea' that someone would 'hoax' such efforts seems a little bizarre as is joining up to question the efforts...don't you think on reflection?

I am not the only one on this site interested in this kind of capability and I have learned quite a bit about other approaches by a host of different people and products. My aim is to be able to duplicate selected strings to be effected for solo guitar. This means it requires something very compact and with a high degree or separation similar to the hex pick-ups for synth guitars...if the 'format' of a compact pickup is similar, then it should really be of no surprise and for a prototype some 'haphazard' appearance is surely expected...that one would suggest it is a 'mock up' for a 'photo shoot' is slightly offensive and indicative of posts elsewhere and trolling that my name sometimes attracts...I hope this is not more of the same.

I will of course, continue my work regardless of any cynicism for the only reason that matters, that I want this capability for my own musical endeavours and the guitar I am working on in particular...any kind of hoax then would be completely pointless. I do so publicly in the hope of assistance and helpful input from people with constructive input to offer and this forum. A forum with a particular interest in such things as hex pickups or indeed multi-tuning systems and other features of my current 'concept' guitar to incorporate these features, who have been helpful and in sharing these things and progress is giving back to the community and conveners of the forum.

If you have something constructive to contribute i am sure many would be interested here for you "2nd post" but if now, well....

Zummooz-fgn

Hey warmingtone ..... well said  ;D  ;D  ;D
I'm shocked by that persons 1st post.
I would ignore that completely  ;)

Obviously they haven't been reading your posts on your achievements that you have done thus far.
Lets just see what they have ........ or can offer !!

I've been following this very intensely, but I can't input much, as it's way over my head.

I say (as would others) ... keep up the great work, it's very interesting to me & many others here too.
Cheers Zum

P.S ... see how many have viewed  ;D
Q... What kind of advice can you give me ?   Tommy Emmanuel's reply ....

You move your hand Up and Down that long bit and the music comes out of that Big Black Box behind you !!

warmingtone-fgn

Thanks Zum, I seem to attract that kind of thing...

nevertheless...

The hex thing is only a part of a bigger project and not essential to it. The guitar is coming along and I was able to hear it electrically after playing it acoustically for some time now. There is still a bit of work in the electronics/wiring side of things. Buffers are made but getting parts out here has occasionally been a problem. Basically though, there is the PAF neck Mag pickup (with series/parallel and 'dark' tone switch hidden in the F hole) and a 4 band EQ with tuner piezo and they are working well and in combination. The idea is a master volume and 'blend/pan control' on the top and two outputs. One a mono blend of mag and piezo, the other a piezo only and the mag from the other with the piezo blended out. I'd like it to do more but that might be a good start. The hex would be an added system with it's own volume control to it's own output.

The integration of the 'trilogy' onto an acoustic guitar, most likely the first attempt at this on an acoustic guitar other than a drobo has improved enormously. I had to add struts inside the guitar under the bridge to the top to stop the top and so bridge flexing so much under the altered string tension so that taking the tension of some strings would not effect (usually sharpen) the unaltered strings. The result with my set up is to be able to drop the tuning of each string in three pre-set half steps. So standard, standard Eb and standard D but this also allows of course for dropped D, open G, DADGAD and a host of other tunings very quickly by manipulating various levers on the tail piece.

The 'Hex' or divided pickup is intended to add to this guitars capability and this genre of music to say, select the lower two strings and pitch shift them an octave below or the middle strings and generate a pseudo string pad like effect, delay on selected strings only, etc  and to do so by not compromising the guitar or be intrusive. It needs a decent audio signal and tone and separation and to be done in a small surface mounted like space by preference.

This kind of thing is not easy to achieve and while one could 'hack' something like a GK pickup and on this site learned there are quite a few people with 'hex' pickups of various kinds, I am looking for something slightly different and for a specific purpose. If it were easy, well perhaps everyone would have one by now instead of using the old HB and SC formats that have been around since the beginnings of the electric guitar itself.

Someone quoted to be 'thomas edison' and his work on the incandescent light bulb where he spent something like 14 months trying to find a viable filament for the device and many, many different materials. One very promising filament material was bamboo pressed to carbon...too haphazard? But then, when looking into this and the story behind it, as is often the case, the concept of the bulb pre-existed (like the 'hex pickup' dare I say) and yes he did just plug away at it trying everything he could think of...but what is not so often appreciated is that his solution was not only as the result of 14 months of work...but a team of 40 qualified and paid engineers and scientists over 14 months. His results despite his wealth and notoriety would no doubt have "looked haphazard" but the result of persevering with it and throwing the money at it was to change the world.

Now, this is hardly the same potential of bringing light into the dark of night that we largely take for granted till the power goes out these days, and Edison I find to be quite a controversial figure...but seriously, they had 40 paid highly qualified workers working exceptionally long hours to get a result on a pre-existing concept and thousands of failures along the way.

...

I have also had interest of late on my previous work on the sustainer and have a new design for that that many are encouraging me to explore. Again, in that process there was a lot of 'trial and error' to come up with the 'thin coil' approach, what alternate approach has been offered from the commercial other than that? Well, I've not seen much, but I would certainly welcome anyone that has a decent idea in that or any area of exploration and would not criticize on aesthetics of a prototype! People like "irk" who appears to have tracked me down from a recent thread on that topic elsewhere, have also made claims that these things are a hoax despite numerous sound clips and examples of the device and being replicated successfully by dozens of people since 2004. They offer nothing, not even encouragement.

While this forum is small and very specialized, it contains members that are friendly and enthusiastic and help where they can, but as much as anything practical that any one member might be able to technically offer, the encouragement that most good people offer is greatly appreciated and valuable beyond words.

As I say, this is a one off guitar for my own personal use, just as my sustainer was. If as a result something comes of it that could be of benefit to others should I succeed in that to bending it beyond what I am seeking from it. all the better and Id love to see what others might do or conceive. It certainly looks to me that the difficulty in getting separate string outputs effectively is a key to many potentially great ideas from many people as is clear in this forum. But, as I say, what possible motivation might there be to make a 'photo-op mock-up hoax' in that context? Well, only someone like "Irk" would know...but then, what have such people ever offered to anyone, not even encouragement nor the work required, nor to compensate that most people do not work with 40 other paid full time 'assistants' to make something happen in a required time or that the aesthetics of a prototype has any bearing on function or what such a device might could look like...just the myth that such things happen in a vacuum by some single genius (of whom I am clearly not) and that for such things to come into being and refined, like Edison, stands on the shoulders of giants to get there. If I don't succeed, my attempts and yes, even failures, may well encourage others and if enough people try enough things, perhaps out of 40 dedicated to the task, something of value will emerge. DO nothing and offer only cynicism and the results are obvious...Irk!

Another example along the lines of the Edison thing has received some more 'myth building' with the death of Steve Job's recently from Apple. Sure, a visionary in many was, but this is not a one man 'genius' much of the appeal of apple is in the design and ergonomics that made things like the iPod ubiquitous and such a standard. They always had a team of people working in that field but the more recent from 1997 has been Christopher Ives from England...and a highly resourced specialized team...just like in the Edison model and Myth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Ive  http://www.ipexl.com/share/5881c98bf2bdac34d1badc79b175304a

In the more 'novice' category, things often develop in a more 'open source' model and from lots of people approaching and sharing ways and even ideas for things and so new things develop from those. And in the end, the purpose of all this is to provide tools for creative expression, sometimes the expression can not even be explored until such time that something is reasonably available to as many people as possible so that from them, one perhaps will show the way in which to create with such things. The sustainer is a decent example of this kind of thing in the guitar word, it has existed for decades and patents exist as far back as the 1890's I found. Still, you don't see everyone using a sustainer like you see violinists using bows on their instruments. Perhaps, that will never be a widely used device, but until it is available in a format and cost and installation that does not compromise the basic instrument...it is very unlikely to find that particular creative and visionary soul. Synth guitar, most of the kinds of things that are discussed on this forum are of a similar ilk. Irk though, well not of this 'world' LOL...

irksomeremnant

While persuing the global resource that we have at out fingertips for related hex pickup info, I stumbled upon another related thread....

http://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=5970&page=9

which seems to have more updates - is it best to follow that thread for the latest?

gumbo-fgn

Quote from:  irksomeremnant on December 12, 2011, 04:07:40 AM
While persuing the global resource that we have at out fingertips for related hex pickup info, I stumbled upon another related thread....

http://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=5970&page=9

which seems to have more updates - is it best to follow that thread for the latest?


...yep...

...that's probably a good thing to do....


....quietly!!    :-X

irksomeremnant

....seems like a lot of related forum assistance over there, so it'll probably be of lurksome interest to those on this forum too.

warmingtone-fgn

Right...

QuoteYou can find a gallery thread over at guitarnuts under my name 4real http://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=music&action=display&thread=5318 and at project guitar http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=37370&st=0&p=388703&hl=blueteleful&fromsearch=1&#entry388703, the forum that used to host a lot of the work on this technology under the username psw. There should be a soundclip there of this guitar and the sustainer from years back.

from my second post here and this thread...what a 'researcher'...

Thanks for the support, but this is typical ain't it  :-\ ..hmmm

photonutalan1-fgn

#38
Warmingtone, Zummooz, Gumbo: I agree with your comments completely, and fully support Warmingtone's experiments and willingness to share. I've found your research and reports etxremely informative, Warmingtone, and hope you'll continue! I especially appreciate your sharing your thinking and methodology!Besides, when doing fundamental research it's usually necessary to work one's way through what doesn't work, to discover what does (Edison a case in point).

Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!

MCK-fgn

Quote from:  photonutalan1 on December 12, 2011, 01:23:15 PM
Warmingtone, Zummooz, Gumbo: I agree with your comments completely, and fully support Warmingtone's experiments and willingness to share. I've found your research and reports etxremely informative, Warmingtone, and hope you'll continue! I especially appreciate your sharing your thinking and methodology!Besides, when doing fundamental research it's usually necessary to work one's way through what doesn't work, to discover what does (Edison a case in point).

Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!


Well said. I completely agree. Thanks for your open sharing!
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Caig DeOxit - Buy now before you need it !!!
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warmingtone-fgn

Thanks again to all...it only takes one, and there is always one out there...

Not that I am against criticism of course, that can be enormously constructive...anyway

as far as the 'hex' thing...well I want one...so...

It needs to be small and inexpensive and within my abilities. It needs to be small obviously because it needs to sense one string and not another only 10mm next to it. In a conventional coil say, a 5mm round 'core' under each string alone halves that distance. With magnets, weather there is an attraction or repulsion from each other, an alteration in one will be transferred to the other. A piezo too will interact if the bridge or top 'vibrate'...my guitar already has a piezo bridge, so that is not really an option. Most things will have some 'interaction' but one could filter out the lower frequencies or isolate the dominant frequency for say a synth input where you want to 'read' a pitch and velocity of a note to trigger a sound. I am hoping for something of a decent audio not just a trigger tone from them.

Small size essential then, magnetic sensor a virtual given (not likely to do something 'optically') but there are many ways to arrange such things. The device last tried worked but there was too much interaction between close sensors. It was damaged when those central magnets were attempted to be removed. They might appear a little 'haphazard' but it was a first prototype and proof of concept after an initial test of a single 'sensor' showed that it produced a decent signal. I left the central magnets exposed in anticipation that they might need to be replaced with something smaller. However, all the magnets are arranged to be repelling and very strong (rail gun anyone?) and so were firmly glued in with super glue. Having fragile components meant that in that attempt, it broke.

I have an alternate plan though that holds hope that things might be smaller and require less magnetism and so am awaiting parts from china again...with the season and all and the way that freight goes, my own time and other projects...well, it might take a few weeks till I can enact that...

It is all a matter of exploring. One could replicate something more conventional and attempt as in the GK to physically wind 12 tiny home made coils, etc and all the work that that entails. Now, your costs and skills sky-rocket. My attempts here are to try and use means and ideas that avoid such things as coil winding all together and explore ideas that might have a hope of being small and sensitive enough for this application and replicable. In fact, this particular guitar is an arch top with no magnetics near the bridge and little metal in the bridge other than non-magnetic aluminium...and over 20mm from the top to the strings. I have more room than most guitars to work with should I choose though not between the strings themselves. There are people who wind more conventional things as I have found from this forum in fact. But, conventional coils, even miniaturized as in a GK, is not the only means of sensing disturbances in a magnetic field and I think it is worthwhile at least giving some of these techniques a go before throwing in the towel on the concept...just might take a while is all.

On the other hand, it is not an essential part of the overall guitar and that is coming along well enough so far and a fun practical guitar to play and and respectable enough in 'appearance' for a prototype instrument...



Could it be done 'better', of course, but this is a unique prototype and has required all kinds of modifications along the way to make it work but along the way discovered all kinds of neat things that it is capable of that might be exploited even more in a more refined version one day perhaps. The 'de-flexing' of the top helped considerably for the tuning system but still allows it to work acoustically in a quiet fashion. The long string length past the bridge allows for 'b-bender' like manipulation of strings within chords or to bend open string harmonics as a nice 'easter egg' for instance. There is a lot of 'electronics' in it but it still has a 'no-fuss' functional appearance.

If I can devise something small that can sit in front of the bridge and strings selected from tiny DIL switches on either side intuitively, send say the low strings through a pitch shift an octave below, of the middle strings and octave above (for a 12 string like sound on those strings) or any of the other possibilities that would extend the range and texture of the 'solo' guitar....well that would be cool. If I were to be able to make such a device small enough that it could fit on a more conventional guitar in the genre...say a flat top acoustic) and see what another player might do with such capabilities...well, who knows what a creative mind might be able to do with such capabilities while still maintaining the original sound of the guitar itself. At various times people have made instruments like 'harp guitars' and the like to get only a small portion of such capabilities...I'd like to be able to do it without some kind of crazy specialist instrument and to use the sound of the instrument itself to generate such things (albeit with electronic manipulation) rather than synthesis, and to do it in a cheaper and less invasive way than a full on synth.

Is this the 'future of guitar', well possibly not, for me it is a one of specialist project and a challenge to meet such goals. If I don't attempt it, haphazard as things might appear, well then...who else?

Again, thanks for the support and encouragement and who knows, a few weeks perhaps I will get some more parts and try and learn some more towards the goal...