Steinberg UR22C/44C latency/stability

Started by marko_m, January 08, 2020, 10:26:35 AM

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marko_m

Hi all,

I was wondering if any of you v-gearheads out there have bought one of these new USB-C interfaces from Steinberg and would care to comment on the stability at the low-latency settings?  In particular, I'm interested in finding out if there are any discernable differences between running the driver in the "SuperSpeed" (USB 3.1) vs "High Speed" (USB 2.0) mode?

The conventional wisdom has long held that, due to the polling (not interrupt-driven) nature of USB (both 2.0 and 3.0/1), there really wouldn't be ANY difference between the two protocols - except that the USB 3.0/1 would provide a lot more bandwidth which for most audio applications wouldn't be much of a benefit considering that bandwidth of USB 2.0 provides plenty of throughput for anything that a home (or studio) user might throw at it.  And (of course) I fully accept that logic since, well, all of the data out there suggests that both 2 and 3 standards work with the identical 1ms polling intervals.

However...  This was always just theoretical (a theory that was sound and made sense but, still, just a theory) as there was no way to directly compare the real-world performance between the two.  I mean, sure, there were USB 3.0 native interfaces before now (not many but some like Zoom UAC-2 - though I thing they never had Windows support?) but there was no easy way to compare the actual protocol (USB 2 vs 3) performance - since comparing it to another (USB 2.0) interface would mean comparing different hardware, different driver implementations, etc.

Steinberg's new UR-C interfaces seem to support both USB 2.0 and 3.1 protocols from the same physical USB-C port and have a driver level switch to flip between USB 2.0 ("High-Speed") and USB 3.1 ("SuperSpeed") mode - so, it seems that, for the first time, one could actually easily check whether there IS any discernible performance difference between the two.

So - has anyone taken a plunge with UR-C interfaces and tested this yet?

I'm not really interested in the actual round-trip latency figures between the two (because I am 100% certain that those WOULD be identical at the same sampling rates and buffer sizes).  I am more curious whether there is any difference in your setup's propensity to "snap, crackle and pop" at low-ish (<128) buffer sizes between USB 2.0 and 3.1?

Although, I guess, technically this still wouldn't be comparing the actual performance of the PROTOCOL since, I imagine, if you have an SSD on the same USB 3.1 device-tree and nothing on the USB 2.0 device-tree - it's possible (likely?) that USB 2.0 might actually perform better...

Just looking to hear about your experiences if there are any existing users out there...

Cheers,

Marko

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#1
Quote from: marko_m on January 08, 2020, 10:26:35 AM
Hi all,

I was wondering if any of you v-gearheads out there have bought one of these new USB-C interfaces from Steinberg and would care to comment on the stability at the low-latency settings?  In particular, I'm interested in finding out if there are any discernable differences between running the driver in the "SuperSpeed" (USB 3.1) vs "High Speed" (USB 2.0) mode?

The conventional wisdom has long held that, due to the polling (not interrupt-driven) nature of USB (both 2.0 and 3.0/1), there really wouldn't be ANY difference between the two protocols - except that the USB 3.0/1 would provide a lot more bandwidth which for most audio applications wouldn't be much of a benefit considering that bandwidth of USB 2.0 provides plenty of throughput for anything that a home (or studio) user might throw at it.  And (of course) I fully accept that logic since, well, all of the data out there suggests that both 2 and 3 standards work with the identical 1ms polling intervals.

However...  This was always just theoretical (a theory that was sound and made sense but, still, just a theory) as there was no way to directly compare the real-world performance between the two.  I mean, sure, there were USB 3.0 native interfaces before now (not many but some like Zoom UAC-2 - though I thing they never had Windows support?) but there was no easy way to compare the actual protocol (USB 2 vs 3) performance - since comparing it to another (USB 2.0) interface would mean comparing different hardware, different driver implementations, etc.

Steinberg's new UR-C interfaces seem to support both USB 2.0 and 3.1 protocols from the same physical USB-C port and have a driver level switch to flip between USB 2.0 ("High-Speed") and USB 3.1 ("SuperSpeed") mode - so, it seems that, for the first time, one could actually easily check whether there IS any discernible performance difference between the two.

So - has anyone taken a plunge with UR-C interfaces and tested this yet?

I'm not really interested in the actual round-trip latency figures between the two (because I am 100% certain that those WOULD be identical at the same sampling rates and buffer sizes).  I am more curious whether there is any difference in your setup's propensity to "snap, crackle and pop" at low-ish (<128) buffer sizes between USB 2.0 and 3.1?

Although, I guess, technically this still wouldn't be comparing the actual performance of the PROTOCOL since, I imagine, if you have an SSD on the same USB 3.1 device-tree and nothing on the USB 2.0 device-tree - it's possible (likely?) that USB 2.0 might actually perform better...

Just looking to hear about your experiences if there are any existing users out there...

Cheers,

Marko

I only have a bad experience with the prior generation UR-44
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15805.msg114483#msg114483

So far its been a royal pain in the butt - For some reason Steinberg requires an "e-Licencer" just to run its UR44 DSP Mixer with the Guitar amp sims - and the "e-Licencer" installer is a nightmare on OSX - completely prompts me to insert a Nuendo / Cubase USB "E-Licenser key stick - which is NOT supplied with the UR-44. ( and I have zero interest to Buy a E-Licenser Stick and install Cubase)

I did get the OSX USB Audio Driver to install on my mac, and audio worked  -  but OSX shows no MIDI I/O available from the UR44 on OSX - so it has issues.

On Windows 8.1, its a separate can of worms - i finally got the "Soft-E-Lincenser  to install and work - but i can not get the UR44 USB Audio driver for Windows 8.1  to install correctly. it just sits there for 35 minutes then gets hung, while i see lots of internet traffic during a simple USB driver install.

I was supposed to start using the UR44 for ipad  - but fresh out of the box, mine has old stale firmware that must be updated prior to  working with the Steinberg / Yamaha IOS DSPMixer app  -  but the UR44 firmware must be updated to latest version first - using either a Windows PC or OSX Mac   - But the UR44 Firmware update app refuses to run on OSX,
and  Windows  without the UR44 USB driver, the Firmware Update app cant find the UR-44

its time to break out the lyrics to "there's a hole in my bucket dear georgie, dear georgie"

Steinberg User forum is useless  i did find a Steinberg Forum post in portuguese from another UR44 owner complaining about my identical situation  - and the UR44 docs are not accurate  - just a giant 8 language wall poster with warnings about FCC, and links to " go read the Website.

Steinberg customer support are completely absent - no replies to my emails after waiting weeks -(Maybe they are all on Extended Holiday in Europe?)  its a new low for the worst customer support experience I have ever witnessed from any Pro Audio company -   worst documentation - 3 unique download UR44 PDF docs,  all with the same identical name "RELEASE NOTES.PDF, yet each covers separate topics: USB Driver, License manager, Basic FX Suite - ugh!

Steinberg was purchased by  Yamaha a few years back, who apparently  cut the staff ( most now work for Presonus on Studio One DAW)
We know Yamaha also recently purchased Line-6. hopefully this is not a sign of things to come, but I'm not holding my breath - I advise  download any Line-6 apps USB Drivers  for Line-6 gear now while you still can before the Yamaha bean counters do to Line -6 as they have already have done to Steinberg.

I have seen better Owners Manuals and had better customer support from a Chinese Guitar dealer on Ali-Express.com  even Native Instruments or Mark of the Unicorn have much better Customer support.

OK - I finally have the UR44 working.

I suppose if you are a genuine geek, enjoy browsing the net for solutions, have a flawless high speed internet connection ( required for loading the UR44 USB Driver) and lots of patience  - this interface is for you.

But its finally up and running - finally got the Win 8.1 USB driver loaded, Firmware updated, and Basic FX Suite and E-Licenser all working on Windows - ( It still refuses to work on Mac )   and UR44  sounds rather quiet - although I detect bit more hiss in the UR44 headphone amp, compared to the lower noise Scarlet 2i4)

Side note  - for a recent project I resorted to using my Gretsch 6120+ Kemper feeding the Scarlet 2i4 in Sony Vegas , and that worked very well with the Scarlet 2i4's  "point & shoot" hardware controls for "panning" between  Direct in and DAW Out and mono / stereo switch  monitoring -  right on the front of the Scarlet 2i4 (for what it is worth the Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 is on sale next at Guitar Center for $150)

By contrast, the Steinberg UR44 requires  navigating to its own little mixer app that sits in the background for configuring many of its features - like Direct Monitoring.

On Windows , the UR44's  Guitar Amp and FX are only available as VSTi FX in a DAW to Host the UR44's VSTi FX. Too bad the included UR 44 "dsp Mix" app does not directly support hosting VSTi FX - and there is no MIDI automation for these UR44 amps or FX.

Next stop - using the UR44 on iPad - which after I finally got the UR44 firmware update installed ,   I can go test what i was after all along - UR44 on IOS with its DSP Guitar amp sims

Ultimately I found the internal self generated Noise ( perhaps from the internal DSP Mixer ) to be too high , and made this unit impossible to use when working on headphones. Not professional performance by a long shot   

marko_m

Ouch....  ;D Sorry for your terrible owner experience with the UR44!  I actually also owned (in fact, I think I still do - in one of my boxes of forgotten gear  ;D) the UR44 interface and, although I wouldn't give it a stellar review or recommend it to anyone, I didn't seem to have QUITE as awful of a user experience as you did.  I found it to be a half-decent, utilitarian interface which did "ok" for a little bit of actual recording that I may, on occasion, do...  I find Yamaha-Steinberg driver a horrible aberration and I fully echo your sentiments on their MixDSP (or whatever it is called) mixer software which is woeful to put it kindly and rendered completely useless on any of the more modern high resolution display by its fixed (tiny) resolution (as if it wasn't bad enough already).  Luckily (for any new UR-C owners), screenshots seem to indicate they updated it - so maybe it's better now.  I think I MAY have gotten the "guitar amps" (DSP) to work once (after a lot of fiddling with their eLicenser garbage and thought "meh" and never looked at it again.  Actually, I did try to look at it one more time but by that time (after a Windows update or a restart or whatever) eLicenser didn't work any longer and (remembering what the "DSP amps" actually sounded like) I didn't find the necessary motivation to go through the hell of trying to get the eLicenser sorted out again.  But the DSP features weren't really important to me...  For capturing a few ideas once in a while and auditioning some VST effects and amps - it did "ok"...

Anyhow... You misunderstood my intent - I am not actually considering buying UR22-C or UR44-C!  As I said, I wasn't TOO disappointed with what I got from UR44 (especially considering I got it second hand for a reasonable price), but I wasn't in any way impressed sufficiently to think about getting the updated version. I've been at this long enough now and enjoy the tinkering sufficiently to know that I can afford better (even if I technically don't NEED better for the kind of putzing around with a guitar that I do  ;D).

I was just wondering if anyone had taken the plunge on one of these already and, if so, whether they may be able to comment on any differences in stability/performance between USB 2.0 operation and USB 3.1 operation.  Seeing as these UR-C interfaces seem to be the first ones out there (that I've seen) that support USB 2.0 and 3.1 AND have some sort of a driver-level switch between the two ("SuperSpeed" and "High-Speed" LOL) - just seems like a question to ask.  IS there really a discernible difference (in audio stability) between the two modes?

Over the years, we've come to accept the going explanation from the audio equipment manufacturers that they don't use USB 3.x because it adds cost and provides no benefit (while reducing the size of the target market since not everyone has USB 3.x on their computer).  And I get (and accept) their logic.  But, now that there are some actual devices using USB 3.1 I am just curious whether any difference can be seen in the real-world use (accepting, of course, that any such report would be anecdotal - since, after all, it would be just one manufacturer's implementation used on one person's computer).

Marko