VG99 and SonicCell

Started by sheguitarplayer, November 27, 2009, 08:33:13 AM

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sheguitarplayer

Hi
I have been using my VG99 with a GR20, connecting from the midi out VG99 to the midi in GR20.
No problems with latency but I find when I have the string sensitivity just right (ie just below peaking) on the VG99, it is way too hot for the midi out. I can only really use the 'strum' play feel, anything else is just way too sensitive, triggering all sorts of odd notes.
I won a Roland Sonic cell on evil bay and intend to run it from the VG99.
Anyone else with this setup who can give me the heads up on where I need to be aiming the VG99 sensitivity settings to get good results with the Sonic Cell?

sheguitarplayer

Further to this, the sonic cell arrived today and it works very well.
Sounds great too, and the sensitivity settings tally very well with the VG99 so I neednt have worried.
Ive been heving problems with pitch bend tho.
It works great with chromatic1 2 or 3 but not at all well with the chromatic knob turned to 'off' until I toggle between polyt and mono mode, as mentioned elsewhere on the forum. This solves the problem but isnt a practical solution when performing live.
Anyone know of any workarounds?

Jim Williams

you need to set it up with mono...it is a pain to set up one string at a time but thats the only way to pitch bend well. you may need to set the globals in the soniccell as well.
Skype: (upon Request)

Everything from modeling to the real deal, my house looks like a music store.

sheguitarplayer

Gotcha, thanks for that. Works a treat.
Im well impressed with this combination. It tracks fine and sounds superb.

pedwards2932

#4
I have a GR 55 and a GR 30.  I got a Roland Sonic Cell a few years back to try and get more synth sounds.  I am thinking about getting a used VG 99 to integrate with the Sonic Cell as either a backup or replacement for the GR55.  Anyone have experience with using a vg99 with a sonic cell?  How much lag running midi in?  Will it require a midi pedal to control both units?

musicman65

I am designing my next gen rig to replace my VG99 with Proteus 2000 synth with a VG99, SonicCell,  and Kemper Profiling Amp. Everything is working great so far.  I am using an FC300 pedalboard but it isnt necessary for controlling the SonicCell.  The VG99 does that through the GuitarToMIDI settings per patch.  FC300 just changes the VG99 patches and Exp2 changes MIDI volume the way I have it setup.

bd

pedwards2932

From what I remember it wasn't very easy to get my GR20 to play the SonicCell patches you had to make sure you had the GR 20 patch set for a similar instrument like a sax in order to play the sax sound on the SonicCell and have it work right.  I got rid of the GR 20 and replaced it with the GR55.  I am thinking the VG99 would give great guitar sounds and if I could with reasonable ease set up patches on the VG99 that would translate to the SonicCell that would be great.  I also remember the learning curve on the Sonic Cell was a bear and it frustrated me enough to get the GR55.  Thanks for the response at least it sounds like this is feasable.

musicman65

In the VG99's Guitar to MIDI settings, you dial in the MSB an LSB for each string and that's the sound that plays on the Sonic Cell. These are saved per patch so the SC follows as patches are changed. NOTHING had to be changed on the SC to make that work. Knowing the MSB/LSB numbers for each tone you want is key. Search for SonicCell on this forum and you will find a spreadsheet of all the tones with MSB/LSB numbers.

MIDI is an old school design and relates back to computer math. It's not difficult...just different.

MSB is Most Significant Byte. A byte is 8 bits that hold a value ranging from 0 - 127.
LSB is Least Significant Byte and holds a value ranging from 0 - 127 also.

Most synths use the MSB to select the Bank and MSB to select the tone in that bank. The SC is that way. So if you want the High E string to be a Sax, on String 1 dial in Bank 1, tone 66, Thats MSB 1, LSB 66. Simple. Repeat for all 6 strings and save the patch. Btw, MSB 127 LSB 1 yields no sound which is needed on guitar only patches or the SC will keep playing previous patch settings.

The GR20 had no such settings but complies with the General MIDI mapping for typical sounds so selecting a Sax would send MSB 1, LSB 66 on all 6 channels and, since the SonicCell complies with General MIDI also, it produces a Sax tone. Thats ok but the SC has tons of other tones on non-standard banks too. The GR20 can't access them...but our beloved VG99 can dial up any tone on any string!

In the SC, you can also store 4 tones layered together in a Performance patch and assigned per string to give 6 x 4 = 24 tones total....but thats a discussion for another day.

bd

pedwards2932

Thanks that is exactly what I needed to know.  If I can get the VG99 to dial up the correct synth sounds then I'm in.  I guess I better start checking e-bay.  How about latency from VG 99 to Sonic Cell?  If I set up my GR55 to connect to the Sonic Cell will the latency be similar to what I will see with the VG99 to Sonic Cell?  From what I remember there was some latency with the GR20 to Sonic Cell connection but it didn't seem to be bad enough to be unusable.  The Sonic Cell is pretty versatile for a small unit and you can add upgraded sounds.  I am finding the sax sounds on the GR 55 to be limited but as I remember they weren't much better on the Sonic Cell.

Elantric

VG-99 is about 3 to 5 milliseconds (average) slower than GR-55

pedwards2932

Sounds like testing with the GR55 should be close enough then.  I just want to make sure it will work okay before I pony up the $ for the VG99.  I want to use it as either a backup to the GR55 or if it works out to work better then use it as my main.  I am sure the VG 99 has more in the way of guitar sounds but for the type of music I play I haven't had any real issues with the GR55s guitar sounds and the synth stuff works fine for me.  I am pretty sure that triggering the Sonic Cell will not be as good as the GR55 triggering its internal synth sounds but it is worth a try.  I always have a backup system and I am using a GR30 with a Zoom guitar processor for backup now.  The Zoom weighs a ton and takes up a lot of floor space plus has some finicky stomp buttons so I would really like to upgrade my backup.

musicman65

I doubt the GR55 internal synth will be much faster than an external synth via 5-pin midi. I suspect the internal synth is driven by midi also.

bd

pedwards2932

I have more experience with the gr 30 and the gr20 and they definitely triggered the internal sounds faster than using midi out to the sonic cell but i didn't find it unusable.

Elantric

QuoteI doubt the GR55 internal synth will be much faster than an external synth via 5-pin midi. I suspect the internal synth is driven by midi also.

Actually all Roland Guitar Synths trigger their internal sounds MUCH faster than they trigger all external Tone Generators via MIDI.

pedwards2932

How well does the GI-20 work triggering midi?  Is it any faster than the VG-99?  I saw one on e-bay so I am curious.  Presently I have gotten the VG-99 and I have gotten a US 20 so I can switch between my GR30 and the VG 99.  If I got a GI 20 I could have it trigger the sonic cell and use the US 20 to switch between the 2 just not sure if it is going to be significantly better than using midi out from the VG-99.

shawnb

#15
I have a GR30, a GR55 & a VG99.   The fastest external MIDI triggering is from the GR30.  Don't write that unit off! 

I find that the VG99's triggering is at least 10 ms slower than the GR55 or the GR30 for the EADG strings.  High B & E are much closer.   Boring details here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=870.msg44868#msg44868

I have no experience with a GI-20, but the following link shows some comparitive data:
http://www.joness.com/gr300/MIDI_SPEED.htm

In this guy's measurements, the GR55's external MIDI is actually 1ms better than the internal MIDI! 
His GI-20 measures better than the GR55. 
His GR33B measures slightly better than the GI-20 (impressive for a bass!), and I suspect the GR33B & GR30 would measure similarly.   

I.e., you may already have the best module in your hands with the GR30! 
 
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

pedwards2932

cool thanks for the info.  I always liked the GR 30 I bought it when they first came out and the only thing I had to replace is the power supply.  I like the GR 55 because it essentially is one unit that does everything.  With the GR 30 I was using a zoom g 7.1 ut for guitar processing and it was a really heavy piece of gear that was okay for what it did but the stomp switches have become unreliable.  So it looks like I could just use the GR-30 to trigger the Sonic Cell and it should work fine.  Thanks again.

shawnb

Looking at Jones' raw data, my GR55 measurements & his GR55 measurements are very similar.
However, his GR33B measurements are much, much better than my GR30 measurements.   
And his GI20 measurements are near the top of his list... 

Bottom line is the GI20 may be even better than the GR30, but no side-by-side data exists. 

I'd only go to the GI20 if you find the GR30 in-hand doesn't meet your needs!   
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp

pedwards2932

Mainly I was asking about the GI-20 because there was one on e-bay at about $150.00 not sure what it will go for in the end but if it stays in that range it may be worth picking up.  I have only triggered the Sonic Cell using a GR 20 that I owned and I didn't find the delay to be annoying but I didn't like the gr 20 at all so I sold it.  I am sure the GR 30 would do as well as the GR-20 did.  When I got the Sonic Cell the promotional stuff on it usually showed using a GI 20 with it. 

bwanagary

I've used the VG-99 and Sonic Cell together for a while. It was a bear to figure it all out so I created two spreadsheets to help. I'll attach them to this post for you.  I recommend installing OpenOffice/LibreOffice spreadsheet software (it's free at http://www.libreoffice.org ) because I have some macros in the spreadsheet that simplify things for you.  If not, just use Microsoft Excel to read the spreadsheets.  One document describes exactly what steps to take in sequence to connect a particular VG-99 patch to a Sonic Cell patch. Simply selecting the VG-99 patch will switch the SonicCell to the assigned patch also.  The other document (there are two worksheets in the spreadsheet) will lookup the MSB,LSB and PC values for you by patch name from a drop-down selection list for LibreOffice or as a lookup table.  I found this spreadsheet took all the pain out of getting the VG-99 and SonicCell to play nice together.

I don't use it that much in tandem because I'm not satisfied with the guitar-to-midi tracking speed.
Hope you find this useful.
Gary

drjoness2001

Quote from:  shawnb on September 04, 2012, 08:29:55 AM
I have a GR30, a GR55 & a VG99.   The fastest external MIDI triggering is from the GR30.  Don't write that unit off! 

I find that the VG99's triggering is at least 10 ms slower than the GR55 or the GR30 for the EADG strings.  High B & E are much closer.   Boring details here:
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=870.msg44868#msg44868

I have no experience with a GI-20, but the following link shows some comparitive data:
http://www.joness.com/gr300/MIDI_SPEED.htm

In this guy's measurements, the GR55's external MIDI is actually 1ms better than the internal MIDI! 
His GI-20 measures better than the GR55. 
His GR33B measures slightly better than the GI-20 (impressive for a bass!), and I suspect the GR33B & GR30 would measure similarly.   

I.e., you may already have the best module in your hands with the GR30! 


Regarding the GR-33B, keep in mind that it is an all analog system, without any "tracking" in the traditional MIDI sense. The GR-33B is the bass version of the (3 ms!) GR-300. I don't think a GR-30 would ever be in the same ball park as the GR-33B, comparing an analog system (with nearly an instant response) with a pitch-to-MIDI rig.

Elantric

#21
Upon first listen, the GR-55 appears to track synths very fast, but upon deeper investigation, it turns out GR-55 patches with a mix of COSM guitar modeling "enabled" were the reason for the false belief that the GR-55 tracks fast.   

I can report my GR-30 does Guitar to MIDI a tad faster than the GR-55.



shawnb

Quote from:  Elantric on December 05, 2012, 04:07:27 PM
I can report my GR-30 does Guitar to MIDI a tad faster than the GR-55.

Further, the GR-30 doesn't double-notes (chromatic on) or introduce spurious pitch bend events (chromatic off) like the GR-55 does.  In every way, it's MIDI performance is markedly better than the GR-55.
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6919.msg48219#msg48219

My - deeply cynical - theory is that they developed the new guitar synth technology, & post development, realized they blew the pitch to midi conversion.  What to do?   Put it in an "all-in-one" box in an effort to recoup the R&D. 

The GR-55 is a very cool, fun device.  But its MIDI/PCM implementation has some issues.   
Address the process rather than the outcome.  Then, the outcome becomes more likely.   - Fripp