FC300 / VG-99 Stomp Box mode?

Started by philflood, February 04, 2008, 12:34:45 PM

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philflood

Does the VG-99 permit operation in something akin to StompBox mode? If so, where is this documented in the manual? I have an old SGX Nitro that operates this way, allowing individual controls to be turned on and off via the foot pedal. Likewise the Digitech GNX4 has a stompbox mode. Does anything on the VG-99 allow on/off activation of an individual parameter within a patch via the footswitch, be it a FC-300, or an older midi footswitch. For example if in a given patch I have a distortion or delay in my effects chain, is there a way in a live performance mode to turn on or turn off that delay or distortion other than creating a separate patch with the various options. If there is, my old X-15 Ultrafoot controller might see some new use.

Elantric

You must manually Map these to external Momentary CTL Footswitches. The FC-300 has 2 built in CTL Switches, and jacks for adding more.   There is a Jack on the VG-99 for adding momentary CTL Footswitches too.


There is a master Mode switch on the FC-300 to accomodate this too - but nothing is automatic - you must manually map the function of interest to a CTL pedal

philflood

Can you map the controls in the VG-99 Editor?

Elantric

#3
YEs

Or Use the CTL Assign page

Use Control Assign: Page over to Page 7. Click on F1

Adjust the F1 knob until you get to CTL(X) (vertical or horizontal)
Program your effect.

philflood

Thanks, I'll see if I can get somewhere with this.

philflood

OK, COOL! I got the VG-99 to recognize the on/off message sent by the X-15 control pads. It uses CC70 through 79 for the ten pads. As they are labeled by effect, it makes it relatively easy to develop a usable mapping system for the controls. One issue I can't seem to resolve is the ability to access patches over number 128. The documentation available for the X-15 did not get updated when ART added the ability to display patch numbers from 129 through 255. A press release from the time says it uses the MMA/JMSC bank-change protocol for accessing these numbers. But I can't find a reference to exactly what that protocol is. So, if any of you know how I can see what the ART X-15 is sending when it sends patch 129, that would be great. Oh, the VG-99 goes back to patch 1 when the ART displays 129, so it seems to be telling me it is getting no bank change message, but that would seem inconsistent with ART's statement. Anyhow, I'm much further along than I was, and if worse comes to worse I'll just have to be content with only being able to use 128 presets at time. Considering that I can never imagine a show where I would need that many tones, I ought to be OK.

vanceg

In some ways yes, in some ways NO! 
It is correct that you can map any control switch that the FC-300 has, or the control switches that can be connected to the VG-99 directly to control the On/Off status of effects (or amps, or anything). That's great. That gives you up to 4 of them. And, if you want to give up the ability to attach extra external foot pedals, you can attach additional foot switches to the FC-300 instead.

These are decent options, but they each have flaws.
- I cannot give up the ability to attach three additional footpedals to the FC-300, so I can't add more footswitches to the FC-300.
- If I use just the FC-300's built in footswitches, that only gives me two switches. Not very useful for "stompbox" mode. Adding the two that the VG-99 can support gives me 4.  Still, nowhere even close to enough.

What I would like is the ability to turn the switches on the FC-300 into "footswitch" mode while still keeping the FC-300 in SysEx mode. That is to say, I'd like the ability to map the switches marked "0/5, 1/6, 2/7, 3/8, 4/9" as Control Sources in the VG-99 editor.  Right now the ONLY use for these buttons is switching presets. 

Why not enable a mode whereby any or all of these switches could be used as control sources instead of switching presets?  Stompbox mode!

Yes, if I want to I could switch the FC-300 into MIDI CC mode and then run a MIDI cable between the FC-300 and the VG-99 and then use the "0/5, 1/6, 2/7, 3/8, 4/9"  switches as generic MIDI controllers.  But, if I do this, then I loose the use of all of my footpedals which are attached to the FC-300 as well as the two footswitches which are built into the FC-300.  That's less than Ideal.

The UPside of this, is that when I suggested a Stompbox Mode to the nice folks at Roland during NAMM, they responded that this was a good idea and would be considered for the future.

This is one of my primary beefs with the FC-300..... so I sure would like to get it changed!

philflood

Not that this really solves the issues for you, if it is even possible, but can you connect a midi controller in addition to the FC-300? Then you could use the midi assigns and have all kinds of control.

vanceg

Quote from: philflood on February 04, 2008, 06:56:04 PM
Not that this really solves the issues for you, if it is even possible, but can you connect a midi controller in addition to the FC-300? Then you could use the midi assigns and have all kinds of control.

Yes, I could.  But I already carry 6 footpedals, 2 foot switches, the FC300 and the VG-99 and that's a lot.

If I were to get another footpedal, why not just dump the FC-300?  That is, if I found another footpedal board I liked more.  I actually am considering swapping out for the Behringer, but personally I feel like I need the FC-300 Control Assignments AND the generic Control Assignments just to have enough Control Assignment slots to do what I want to do.  The 16 (x2) generic control assignments get used up pretty quickly when you want to assign things like:
Tap tempo
FX on/off for 6 different effects on two separate effect chains (Thats up to 12 controllers used up right there)
12 string on/off
harmonizer on/off
Amp gain lo/hi
Swap between two alternate tuning settings
Assign WavePedals to 5 or 6 effect parameters for modulation
etc. 

The point is that the Control Assignments get used up pretty quickly.

Roland was insisting that the 16 (x2) Controller assignments were "overkill" and that they even considered backing off on the number, but that's bizarre to me.  What I would like is the ability to control settings like I do with normal stomp boxes and amps - with a physical controller (knob, switch etc) for every one of the parameters I might control during performance.

Elantric

#9
I'm going to punch holes in my FC-300 to add 6 momentary footswitches along the top

Try a FCB-1010 with latest UNO software:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=32.0

Or the Gordius Big Little Giant
http://www.gordius.be/midi-footcontroller-lgx.php


Or Yamaha MFC-10
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Yamaha-MFC10-MIDI-Footcontroller?sku=700759&src=3SOSWXXA
it supports 4 external expression pedals = 5 pedals

Yamaha MFC-10 Manual
http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pdf/man/m_700759.pdf




vanceg

Yeah, I saw that post about the UNO software. Nice!  I'm scared of the build quality on Behringer gear.
The Gordius is great - thanks for the tip. Too bad it's about $1000 and only has 4 controller inputs.  My old Rolls MIDI Wizard had 8 and was only $99. But, build quality was low and it ONLY sent MIDI PGM change messages which meant I had to use it with my laptop...which is no problem sometimes, but I'd like to be able to run  in just "guitar" mode with the VG-99 and a controller and some footpedals.  Maybe Gordius will make me one with 12 footpedal inputs ;-)

Then my problem is (unfortunately) running out of controller assignments on the VG-99....that's why it's nice to keep the FC-300 - that way I can use the FC-300 Controller assignments for stuff I'm doing directly off the FC-300 (like foot pedals) and leave the generic Controller Assigns for use with controllers like the Wave Pedal or external MIDI.

Vance


Quote from: sustainiac on February 05, 2008, 12:42:48 PM
I'm going to punch holes in my FC-300 to add 6 momentary footswitches along the top

Try a FCB-1010 with latest UNO software:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=32.0

Or the Gordius Big Little Giant
http://www.gordius.be/midi-footcontroller-lgx.php


Or Yamaha MFC-10
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Yamaha-MFC10-MIDI-Footcontroller?sku=700759&src=3SOSWXXA
Yamaha MFC-10 Manual
http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pdf/man/m_700759.pdf





Elantric

#11
>Yeah, I saw that post about the UNO software. Nice!  I'm scared of the build quality on Behringer gear.

I buy em used on ebay for $75 - and rebuild them.

Steve Vai uses one for rehearsals

There is a Eureka ROM for FCB-1010 that support VG-99
http://www.eurekasound.com/eurekaprom

vanceg

Quote from: sustainiac on February 05, 2008, 01:09:38 PM
>Yeah, I saw that post about the UNO software. Nice!  I'm scared of the build quality on Behringer gear.

I buy em used on ebay for $75 - and rebuild them.

Steve Vai uses one for rehearsals

I was thinking that they had 8 inputs for expression pedals on the back but they don't. Oh well.  I'll just stick with the FC-300 I suppose. It's nice....I just wish it had stompbox mode and Roland said they were considering that.

One way that we could perhaps get a psudo-stompbox mode is if we could assign the 1/6, 2/7, 3/8, 4/9. 5/10 switches to be "assignable/patch" Controller Sources in the FC-300 section of the System/System Control Assign page of the editor.  That would be fine by me! 
This would basically take any number of these switches out of the pool of switches that could be used for patch selection....and that would be fine with me.

Elantric

#13
I'm drilling holes in the FC-300 and mount 6 carling momentary foot switches in between the "^" , "v", "1", "2"

and run them to the 1/4" jacks marked "CTL3/4, CTL5/6, CTL7/8

I'll still have the option of running two external EV-5 expression pedals off CTL3/4, CTL5/6  TRS jacks. Just cant use all optons at the same time.


Elantric

MIDI-OX,

Since we still lack a real MIDI Implementation chart, One day I'll run MIDI-OX and the VG-99 Editor at the same time, and map the VG-99 NRPN MIDI controller assignments for all controls.

vanceg

Why not just connect external momentary switches to the 1/4 jacks on the FC300????

Quote from: sustainiac on February 05, 2008, 01:37:12 PM
I'm drilling holes in the FC-300 and mount 6 carling momentary foot switches in between the "^" , "v", "1", "2"

and run them to the 1/4" jacks marked "CTL3/4, CTL5/6, CTL7/8

I'll still have the option of running two external EV-5 expression pedals off CTL3/4, CTL5/6  TRS jacks. Just cant use all optons at the same time.



Elantric

I hate luggin three additional dual momentaries.




dead_lizard

#17
Quote from: vanceg on February 04, 2008, 05:11:03 PM
The UPside of this, is that when I suggested a Stompbox Mode to the nice folks at Roland during NAMM, they responded that this was a good idea and would be considered for the future.

This is one of my primary beefs with the FC-300..... so I sure would like to get it changed!

This is a really important and easy fix for V2.0 (along with Gretch Pups and the infamous hollowbody parameter)!!!

Pity it wasn't in the pdf?

philflood

vanceg - Is there anywhere I can listen to your stuff? It sounds like it would be very interesting.

vanceg

Quote from: philflood on February 05, 2008, 08:29:05 PM
vanceg - Is there anywhere I can listen to your stuff? It sounds like it would be very interesting.

I wish I'd get off my ass and post something somewhere, but right now, no, not really.

vanceg

Quote from: vanceg on February 06, 2008, 12:22:15 PM
I wish I'd get off my ass and post something somewhere, but right now, no, not really.

And thanks for asking!!!!

vanceg

Quote from: dead_lizard on February 05, 2008, 05:16:08 PM
This is a really important and easy fix for V2.0 (along with Gretch Pups and the infamous hollowbody parameter)!!!

Pity it wasn't in the pdf?

By "in the pdf" do you mean in the suggestions we handed to Roland?  If so, Stompbox mode WAS in that PDF.  It was listed as "Enable a mode on the VG-99/FC-300 whereby the footpdeals 1/6, 2/7, 3/8,4/9, 5/10 can be used as control sources (This would basically enable these pedals to be used like the CTL Pedal 1 and 2). In this mode, these pedals would not be used to change from one VG-99 preset to another, but instead would be used as control sources."

Peter at Roland said they would surely consider this one for a future release. (no promises)

Elantric

>- I cannot give up the ability to attach three additional footpedals to the FC-300, so I can't add more footswitches to the FC-300.


FWIW  - FC-300 only allows 2 additional Expression pedals as the rear Jack marked "CTL7/CTL8"  does not support expression pedal - only momentary switches.


vanceg

Actually, that is incorrect: The FC-300 supports using all three of those ports as Expression Pedal ports.  I have had three expression pedals connected since "day one".  Note in the VG-99 editor, in the ControlAssign/FC-300 page that you can set the control target for Exp 5 Pedal/Ctl 7 Foot Switch. This is the expression pedal that can be connected to the CTL7/8 connector. 

Works like a charm. I promise.  I am running with a total of 6 expression pedals:  Two on the FC-300, Three connected to the FC-300 using the EXP Pedal ports on the back and one connected to the Exp Pedal port on the VG-99.

It's a bonus!

Vance

Elantric

Thanks!  I stand corrected!