Anybody got a good drum machine recommendation?

Started by Threeleggedyoyo, September 08, 2012, 01:48:00 AM

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Threeleggedyoyo

I've got an Alesis SR-16. It synchs up with the Loopstation well and sounds great. But it is a PAIN to program. There's no good visual feedback for programming the drum tracks.

Are there any similar drum machines that can hook up to a computer and let me edit drum loops/songs on there with a better interface?

Heck I'd settle for a software program that can synch up midi drum tracks. If it's out there, I can't figure out which one it is... so lost... Reaper? Ableton? Something...

Zummooz

Yep ..... NI Maschine   ;D  .... you can thank me later   ;)

What's the difference between a drum machine and a drummer ?

You only have to punch in the information once   :P
The  Fact  Is......"We  are  all  tactile  creatures  &  physical  interaction  has  always  been  a  big  part  of  making  music"

billbax

#2
Hi Zummooz,

If you can get hold of a Roland R8 MKII you will be a happy man.  I've used every Roland Drum after the MKII, and they're all beat boxes.  You know, just very good samples that don't sound anything like a real drummer.

The R8 MKII has something called a 'feel-patch', so you can program a template to fit over a straight pattern.  You can add 'random' and 'probability' and this makes sure the pattern feel is different every bar. 

Roland's DR-880 sounds pretty good, but as I've already said, it's just a beat box, unlike the R8MKII rhythm composer.

Check out a few of my demos with the R8 MKII.





Regards,

Bill

www.separate-strings.co.uk

Hopkins

I'll post back later when I have more time, but I have been very happy so far with Roland's DR-880.

aliensporebomb

#4
The best thing about the Roland R series rhythm composer units is that there were quite a few seemingly undocumented features in the units so I had my R-5 doing bass parts, synth parts, etc.

This song "Crusades" I wrote back in 1995 or so and it's all Roland R-5 except for the guitars - the bass is the R-5:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=243889&songID=1746631

Then the song "aliensporebomb" I wrote in 1997 (titled after my alias) is all Roland R-5 doing all the drums, synth bass, and sequencer lines except for 12 tracks of harmony guitar:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=243889&songID=1746572

And here's one I wrote I think in 1993 or 1994 that's just R-5 - the R-5 doing the drums, the bass line and I set up a series of MIDI note-on commands to drive the cheesy Casio MT-240 I had
at the time.   So it's basically just a drum machine doing it all:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=243889&songID=1746806

I wish I knew where my R-5 is since I think it's downstairs in the remains of my old studio or something but that box is amazing.  I found the box and manual the other day though so it's near
and I still have the midi cables I use to connect it to my studio upstairs now so all I need to do is find it and re-add it to the system.
My music projects online at http://www.aliensporebomb.com/

GK Devices:  Roland VG-99, Boss GP-10, Boss SY-1000.

LPHovercraft

I use Arturia's Spark drum machine - which puts the 'lift' (i.e. processing) on the laptop CPU like Machine. So that may take it out of the running for you if you're looking for a drum machine with processing on-board the controller.

I like that it uses a variety of methods (not just sample playback) to re-create sounds and shape them in real time - even physical modeling in some cases. It also has a lot of great performance functions for mangling the sounds/patterns in real time. (stutter, resonant filters, rolls, etc.)

The thing that I like most about it is that it 'can' take on the role of a stand-alone drum machine with its song mode and the related controls. And Arturia did a great job of emulating some of the cool functions of vintage drum machines (like the ability to automate parameter moves continuously through a pattern for extra expression)

If this is something that interests you, check out Glen Darcy's YouTube videos demo'ing Spark.

Check out this video on YouTube:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdUA5Dg8Ks8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Houston Haynes - LPHovercraft

billbax

#6
Hi LPHovercraft,

Had a look at the demo of Arturia's Spark drum machine, and it seems the functions are a beat-box, unlike the advanced Roland R8-MKII.  Perhaps it has some hidden features that will allow you to sound half-way towards a real drummer (Jeff Porcaro, Steve Upton, Simon Phillips, Jon Hiseman etc).

For now in the drum machine 'feel' world, the Roland R8-MKII is king. Shame the Roland R8 MKII samples aren't stereo though.

Tried loads of software PC drum machines, BFD, Drums Superior, EzDrummer etc. In a classic-rock track, a PC/MAC beat-box drum machines still sounds like an auditioning drummer...not knowing where to accent, feel and push the guitar parts - even with heavy programming.

In terms of programmability, the Roland R8 MKII with its 'feel-patches', 'time-stretch' and 'micro-timing' is still king. Come on guys, give me a drum score to challenge...'Moby Dick' perhaps..yikes!!!

Back to Threeleggedyoyo's original message, if heavy duty programming is not for you, then I'd happily go for the Roland DR-880.

Bill

www.separate-strings.co.uk


Hopkins

billbax, those features you talk about sound interesting.  I remember wishing that they existed in Cubase 3 in about 1998 when I was using it to control an Alesis DM5.  The samples on that thing were great at the time, but Cubase just didn't offer any features to help make the drumming sound natural.

Before this year I had a decade of doing no music, and so this last 8 months has been a frenzy of gear buying and excitement.  I ended up with the DR-880 quite randomly and thought I would "give it a go".  I have not had a chance to examine all the features, but I do like the touch sensitive pads and the facility to use them to record passages in real time.  This helps to create a more natural feel, although you can choose to apply quantisation if you want absolute precision.  I was pleased to note details like closing the hi-hat interrupts an open high hat sample, and that the kits have two similar but not identical snare and bass drum samples so that rolls and double kick-drum sections sound more natural.

There are other things that I have not properly tried, for example nudging the samples slightly on and off the beat to give a different feel, or to emphasise certain notes.

It also offers bass guitar samples, and you have the facility to play these via the pads too.

So, overall, I am very pleased, but I am still quite the novice when it comes to using it!  I hope that this will change over time!

Threeleggedyoyo

Thanks guys.

So with the DR-880... can it receive/save MIDI song patterns from the computer via USB? That'd do it.

Kind of annoyed I can't do this with the SR-16. I have managed to get it to send MIDI patterns through my MIDI ---> USB adapter, but getting it to receive any is impossible to figure out, if it can even be done.

LPHovercraft

Agreed on the suited-to-purpose nature of your goals. The bias of Spark is toward electronic instruments, but their acoustic kit is pretty killer. If you're getting into serious acoustic kit work, I'd look at the sampled kits (and their patterns) in Kontakt, Studio and Abbey Road. I would build realistic parts from that and forget the drum machine and just stem out loops to play back in an Ableton Live type app. That's precisely what I'm doing with string and other parts (including some drums) in OpenLabs' MusicOS. In some cases I plan to record an actual drummer and build parts from his performance, and then mute it when the scale of the gig (and his availability) allow for live play. Lots of different ways to slice it depending on what tou're trying to do and how much you care about the quality of the part.
Houston Haynes - LPHovercraft

germanicus

If you are looking for realism, Superior drummer is hard to beat. Its completely software, so im not sure if you want something 'virtual' or not, but it can certainly be used live within a DAW loaded with midi tracks for your songs/performances.

If you become proficient with its extensive midi library (as well as its 3rd party add ons), the line between it and a real drummer becomes very blurred. The more recent generations of sample libraries have become increasingly difficult to tell apart from 'live' players (mostly because you are in fact just triggering what were live performance). String libraries over the past few years have really jumped forward (particularly in regards to more complex articulations), and drum samplers/libraries have had success imitating a human feel by varying velocities on the fly and pulling from larger pools of velocity switched samples. Rolls dont need to sound like a machine gun. It comes down to programmed properly with velocity dynamics.

Superior Drummers sample set is very nice. You get multiple mic sets, its own mixing interface with filters gates and compressors, and you can go so far as controlling how much bleed you get between mics for each drum. You can get everything from room on fire rock drums, to spacious jazz kits, to tight polished pop sounds and metal kits. Its not cheap, but worth it.

Ive used superior to store an entire set list of drum tracks in my Jamman looper for smaller duet gigs with my bassist.
My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

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Threeleggedyoyo

That's a cool recommendation I'll check out for my recordings, but I'm looking for something with a specific set of features for live use. Let me be more specific...

1) I want it to be HARDWARE. I do not like to use laptops in a live setting unless it's totally necessary.
2) It must be able to be a MIDI slave to another device (in this case a Boss Looper pedal)
3) It must be able to receive and save pattern/song info from a computer for later use independent of that computer. This would be beats programmed in a software program with MIDI.

Now, technically, it does not need to be a drum machine. It could be a sampler that can slave a WAV file of the drum track with MIDI BPM information. Just as long as the darn thing starts when I start the pedal, and stays synched to it.

Further research shows the the Boss DR-880 DOES in fact have this capability. However, it also appears to have kind of lousy and non-expandable onboard memory. But it is very very close...


Quote from: germanicus on September 08, 2012, 10:37:24 PM
If you are looking for realism, Superior drummer is hard to beat. Its completely software, so im not sure if you want something 'virtual' or not, but it can certainly be used live within a DAW loaded with midi tracks for your songs/performances.

If you become proficient with its extensive midi library (as well as its 3rd party add ons), the line between it and a real drummer becomes very blurred. The more recent generations of sample libraries have become increasingly difficult to tell apart from 'live' players (mostly because you are in fact just triggering what were live performance). String libraries over the past few years have really jumped forward (particularly in regards to more complex articulations), and drum samplers/libraries have had success imitating a human feel by varying velocities on the fly and pulling from larger pools of velocity switched samples. Rolls dont need to sound like a machine gun. It comes down to programmed properly with velocity dynamics.

Superior Drummers sample set is very nice. You get multiple mic sets, its own mixing interface with filters gates and compressors, and you can go so far as controlling how much bleed you get between mics for each drum. You can get everything from room on fire rock drums, to spacious jazz kits, to tight polished pop sounds and metal kits. Its not cheap, but worth it.

Ive used superior to store an entire set list of drum tracks in my Jamman looper for smaller duet gigs with my bassist.

mbenigni

Quote from: Threeleggedyoyo on September 08, 2012, 10:50:30 PM
Now, technically, it does not need to be a drum machine. It could be a sampler that can slave a WAV file of the drum track with MIDI BPM information. Just as long as the darn thing starts when I start the pedal, and stays synched to it.
I'm probably missing something here, but it sounds like your best bet might be to simply upgrade your looper.  What are you using now?  Would it meet your needs to upgrade to, say, an RC300 or similar, with more simultaneous loops, and then transfer and store whatever drum patterns/beats you need for a given set as time-stretchable loops?  This is pretty much the solution I'm planning on, if I ever do find the right h/w looper for my needs.

datsunrobbie

Quote from: Threeleggedyoyo on September 08, 2012, 04:36:47 PM
Thanks guys.

So with the DR-880... can it receive/save MIDI song patterns from the computer via USB? That'd do it.

Kind of annoyed I can't do this with the SR-16. I have managed to get it to send MIDI patterns through my MIDI ---> USB adapter, but getting it to receive any is impossible to figure out, if it can even be done.

I just pulled my SR-16 out yesterday and hooked it back up. I don't remember exactly how it was done, but I have a couple dozen complete songs that were recorded into the SR-16 using an electronic drum kit to trigger the sounds in the SR-16. I'd have to believe it can take a midi file from a PC if it can take midi in from a  drum kit.

mbenigni

Totally different angle:  I've got a Zoom Rhythmtrack 123, new in box, that I've been trying to sell for ages.  If it would be any improvement over your SR16 in terms of ease of programming, I'd sell it to you for a song (ba-dum, crash) - basically, cost of shipping and whatever you think is fair.  A quick google search tells me it can act as MIDI slave, but does not respond to Song Position Pointer.

Threeleggedyoyo

#15
Quote from: mbenigni on September 10, 2012, 07:31:09 AM
I'm probably missing something here, but it sounds like your best bet might be to simply upgrade your looper.  What are you using now?  Would it meet your needs to upgrade to, say, an RC300 or similar, with more simultaneous loops, and then transfer and store whatever drum patterns/beats you need for a given set as time-stretchable loops?  This is pretty much the solution I'm planning on, if I ever do find the right h/w looper for my needs.

I'm using an RC-50. While I'd like to upgrade to the RC300, neither would solve this issue.

I guess I could pre-record drum tracks onto the phrases, but since most of my loops are short that sends me back to the original issue. Moreover I prefer single mode, so simultaneous loops aren't helpful anyway.

The reason for the drum machine is that is synchs up and be programmed with more interesting patterns.

Although if I were to upgrade to an RC-300, I guess I could slave the RC-50 with pre-recorded material. Seems like overkill, though, and I'd still have to find a way to make sure the original drum track WAV was perfectly synched, which is more difficult than you might think. It's not the preferred solution since it depends on me getting the original BPM to match perfectly between independent devices.

In short, I'm still open to syncing a WAV file through another sampler with MIDI in, but haven't seen a good way to do so, and I still think it would be better to have a device with a full set of midi commands instead of just starting a WAV and hoping it stays synced.

Quote from: datsunrobbie on September 10, 2012, 08:32:26 AM
I just pulled my SR-16 out yesterday and hooked it back up. I don't remember exactly how it was done, but I have a couple dozen complete songs that were recorded into the SR-16 using an electronic drum kit to trigger the sounds in the SR-16. I'd have to believe it can take a midi file from a PC if it can take midi in from a  drum kit.

One would think so, but as of yet I haven't got this to work. It's as funny piece of equipment this way...

I've gotten it to receive instrument commands (whole patterns, etc) and it plays them back. But for some reason it refuses to save them once you send it into compose/record mode. If you know something I don't, I'd be elated to hear, but so far every program I can get to play through it yields the same result.

Quote from: mbenigni on September 10, 2012, 10:50:05 AM
Totally different angle:  I've got a Zoom Rhythmtrack 123, new in box, that I've been trying to sell for ages.  If it would be any improvement over your SR16 in terms of ease of programming, I'd sell it to you for a song (ba-dum, crash) - basically, cost of shipping and whatever you think is fair.  A quick google search tells me it can act as MIDI slave, but does not respond to Song Position Pointer.

That's a nice offer but reviewing the manual indicates that it won't address my issues any better than the SR-16. Thanks though.

-----

Part of me wonders if I should pick up something like an old Yamaha QX21 and just run drum commands to the SR-16 off of that. But I don't know if it can save midi commands in the manner I want to any better...

Or maybe one of these...

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=21913267&cat=&lpid=&search=midi%20sequencer

Still seems like overkill.

Threeleggedyoyo

In other news...

It would appear that a Yamaha RY9 can recieve a MIDI dump from any device capable of sending them, and I'm sure software to do this exists. So that may be another option.

Threeleggedyoyo

GOOD NEWS!  8) 8)

The SR-16 is capable of receiving not only sync, but also midi data from Reaper when the unit is in compose/record mode. That means I've found a way to get Midi files from a DAW into the SR-16... just like I wanted!

Only down side is that it has to be done one pattern at a time, but that's no big deal.

I am kind of puzzled as to why so many of the programs I tried were capable of sending instrument commands to be played by the SR-16, but it could not record them in compose mode. Go figure.

The important thing is that I have an answer!

Hopkins


datsunrobbie

Glad you found the answer. I knew it was in there somewhere  :) Don't forget to make notes for tracks you put in there. When I pulled mine out there were several that I had a tough time remembering how they started off, or even which song they were, because my cue sheet (from 15 years ago) just had song/track/tempo/title, where title was often a single word. Those titles were obvious years ago when using the SR-16 3 nights a week, not so much a few years later.