Causes of (and Solutions to) SY-1000 Poor Pitch to Midi Performance

Started by Bluesbird, October 22, 2021, 08:13:10 AM

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gumtown

Problem with gating the midi data is it cuts into your playing dynamic range,
which is OK for using midi instruments which only require note on/note off.

I think best results are to address the problem at the origin (on the guitar) before any guitar to midi conversion takes place.

In the case of the SY-1000, I have found the relationship of the ideal GK setup settings for "modelled instruments vs guitar to midi"
does not match, and for "guitar to midi" the GK setup input sensitivity needs to be a lot lower.

You need a different GK SET profile for each job, which is a curse when you want optimal satisfaction both modeled instruments/guitar playing, and guitar to midi at the same time.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

CodeSmart

Quote from: gumtown on December 13, 2021, 01:25:30 PM
In the case of the SY-1000, I have found the relationship of the ideal GK setup settings for "modelled instruments vs guitar to midi"
does not match, and for "guitar to midi" the GK setup input sensitivity needs to be a lot lower.

You need a different GK SET profile for each job, which is a curse when you want optimal satisfaction both modeled instruments/guitar playing, and guitar to midi at the same time.

This is exactly my findings also on the GR-55 some years ago.

Quote from: admin on December 13, 2021, 12:48:38 AM
My SY-1000 Guitar to MIDI is the same as the GR-55 Guitar to MIDI.

Yes most likely.
But I got more gear than I need...and I like it!

Nobulusprime

Quote from:  Bluesbird on December 13, 2021, 06:21:49 PM
.What I found was that in chromatic mode once I hit a note on the low E string and stopped that note, a velocity event was being put out at a level of 10. It is always the same velocity value. No matter how hard you hit the note the incorrect note-on event that is produced has a velocity value of 10 as verified by MidiOx. Many times the incorrect note-on is a half-step below the struck note. It happens on all strings but more so on D, A, and E. I created another custom filter in Ableton to filter any velocity settings below 16 and low and behold the pitch to midi at normal sensitivity settings is perfection. Attached is a template of the custom midi settings that I hope remedies the glitching. If anybody tries these custom midi input settings in Ableton, make sure you are not getting any input other than from these 6 tracks. Also, the velocity value you get may differ depending on your sensitivity settings. Check each string (hit a note, then stop it) and check for low velocity values on each string. You may have to hit the note several time to identify the low velocity note-on event.   

This was the same experience I had in my video that compared the pitch to midi comparison between of my ancient GR30, an adapted FTP connect and the SY1000 all driven by the same GK pick up and guitar. It's great that you've managed this in Ableton but this should be a function of the SY1000 internal set up. Quite why this is not being acknowledged by Boss is quite beyond me ???, maybe they're working on it right now...let's hope so :)

Nobulusprime

Quote from: gumtown on December 13, 2021, 01:25:30 PM

In the case of the SY-1000, I have found the relationship of the ideal GK setup settings for "modelled instruments vs guitar to midi"
does not match, and for "guitar to midi" the GK setup input sensitivity needs to be a lot lower.

You need a different GK SET profile for each job, which is a curse when you want optimal satisfaction both modeled instruments/guitar playing, and guitar to midi at the same time.

This is so true... Surely this is a relatively simple gain modification issue in the SY1000? The same is true with the Dynamic Synth/GR300 - they work better with with higher outputs on the GK but the OSC performs better with lower sensitivities like P2M. This means combining sounds is fraught with problems of either the Dynamic synth having poor sustain or the OSC synth glitching all the time.

Stability is so important and more important than speed. Unfortunately the SY1000 isn't that fast either.

Chumly

I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. - Richard P. Feynman

kimyo

Quote from:  Bluesbird on December 13, 2021, 03:04:03 PMThe only midi data that is being gated is the six open string notes—that doesn't compromise playing dynamics much, if at all.

for those users without ableton i wonder if a similar result could be achieved by using a capo on the first fret.  if so, most guitars could be tuned down a half step without too much bother. 

i'll try this when i get the sy hooked up again and switch my guitar back to eadgbe.  the all b-string option is working acceptably with the gr-55, but is pretty horrendous on the sy. 

Brak(E)man

Quote from:  Bluesbird on December 12, 2021, 09:34:34 AMMost of the glitching on the SY-1000 is caused by open strings.
If this isn't caused by the length or the tension of the open strings , then guitars with a zero fret would not have much glitches. The same I'm guessing with the fretless guitars I have that have a bridge made from the same material as the "fret"board.

I have to try it over the weekend.
I haven't used much of the SYs GTM but I've have great results with GP-10.
swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch

fokof


fokof

False alarm : you can't setup a minimum velocity.  :-\


But I found that limiting the Off velocity to 1 helps on some presets.

The GX2 pedal from Codesmart helps a lot with  "noise gate" preset.

Latency is still too much for bass , not fun to play with.

admin

Quote from:  Bluesbird on December 16, 2021, 06:48:16 PM
I shared my results of the SY-1000's guitar to midi performance with Roland Backstage Support and this was their response:

"While we value and appreciate feedback from users, in order to protect both you and Roland we cannot solicit ideas or agree to receive any confidential ideas or technical proposals from persons outside Roland." 

Incredible. 

Roland!!!!!!!

Its a legal issue, they fear you may sue them for intellectual property should they implement your suggestions - big part of the "Not Invented here" syndrome common at big companies, where they shun listening to any design ideas from  anyone outside their R&D lab and not already on payroll 

Same reason many top artists I know on Facebook will not accept unsolicited demos for legal reasons - they worry about people sending them demos, and then later suing them, claiming their songs have been stolen.

kimyo

Quote from: admin on December 16, 2021, 07:00:50 PM
Its a legal issue, they fear you may sue them for intellectual property should they implement your suggestions - big part of the "Not Invented here" syndrome common at big companies,

i don't see how informing roland of a product defect can possibly fall under the heading of 'intellectual property rights'. 

does anyone know if 1.07 is the final update?  the reply to bluesbird could also be interpreted as '1.07 is all there is, live with it'. 

we wouldn't have to guess if roland chose to communicate instead of giving us this kind of bogus boilerplate reply. 

admin

Quote from: kimyo on December 16, 2021, 08:10:29 PM
i don't see how informing roland of a product defect can possibly fall under the heading of 'intellectual property rights'. 


My response was based on Roland reading ALL BluesBirds suggestions in this whole thread  - with offering Boss new ideas like muting open Strings to improve Guitar to MIDI  performance go beyond simply informing of a product defect -  I find the SY-1000  superior to my old Casio Guitar to MIDI, but still not as good as Tripleplay guitar to MIDi

and with the chip shortage and forced PCB respins on several other key products (GT-1000) , Roland/ Boss has higher priorities to stay in business vs catering to our fringe group of sonic innovators   

I predict more firmware updates for SY-1000 but not until summer 2022

No problem for many here  - the SY-1000 "as is" remains a very unique tool unmatched by prior GK Processors   

 

stub

The SY-1000 has increased the number of pitch-to-MIDI options that I have from zero to one. I didn't buy it for the P2M, and I probably won't use it much, if ever. But it is nice to know it is there. If I ever have a mission-critical need for MIDI, I'll either use a keyboard, or research a better option.

admin

Problem is clueless newbies stumble in here. Read SY-1000 has massive guitar to MIDI  problems. Assuming  its the whole point of the entire box, because they still assume the GK-3 is a MIDI PICKUP, because that's what their local experienced Guitar Center Sales Manager told them , and instantly write off the entire SY-1000.

I doubt I'll ever use the SY-1000's separate Guitar to MIDI Function, I'll use other tools for that.


What killed the Roland/Boss Vguitar Systems in marketplace
https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=14088.0

admin

Quote from:  Bluesbird on December 17, 2021, 10:16:19 AM
Even more reason for Boss R&D to fix the midi problems now—not next week, and not in June of 2022.  I alerted Fishman Tripleplay to a bug and they fixed it quickly. There is no reason Boss should not address this immediately. If they are unable to fix it, they should bring in someone that can. The algorithm is defective—there is no denying that.

If your career is in hold awaiting for a perfect guitar to MIDI System from Boss SY-1000 as firmware update soon,  sell it asap and seek other options

Tripleplay on my 2011 iMac Pro is vastly superior

I find the right tool for the job

Between the two, I prefer the vastly supervisor dynamic range. And instant response to all my playing styles of the stock SY-1000

All guitar to MIDI Systems leave me cold , and I have no need for them at live gigs

Live gig i use the faster GR-33 if I need pianos and saxophones

stub

IMHO, complaining about the P2M of the SY-1000 is like complaining about the quality of the spare tire of a luxury automobile. You'd only want to use it for emergencies, but you wouldn't want the manufacturer to leave it out entirely.

fokof

Agree , but the problem is that Roland makes a big thing of the PTM possibilities of the SY1000.


The right example would be a automotive producer who call their vehicles " 4 Wheels utility sport" and each time you go in a trail , you get stuck.   :)

stub

Quote from: fokof on December 17, 2021, 11:31:22 AM
Agree , but the problem is that Roland makes a big thing of the PTM possibilities of the SY1000.

Do they? I drooled over the feature set of the SY-1000 for months, and P2M never made an impression. It is mentioned in this list, but it is hardly "making a big thing of the possibilities".

* BOSS's most powerful guitar/bass synth and modeling processor ever
* Next-generation synth engine with custom DSP and 48 kHz/32-bit processing throughout
* Unprecedented sound and expression with three simultaneous instrument types and advanced real-time signal processing
* Each instrument provides pitch, level, and panning of each string for instant alternate tunings and wide, layered voicings
* New Dynamic Synth perfectly follows the guitar's natural envelope for uncompromised tone shaping
* New sound engine and GK 13-pin interface deliver clear, dynamic sound and precision tracking with zero latency
* Dynamic Synth includes two 16-part step sequencers for evolving control of pitch, filter, and amplitude
* Newly refreshed versions of historic BOSS/Roland guitar synth and modeling technologies: OSC Synth, GR-300, E.Guitar, E.Bass, Acoustic, VIO Guitar, and Poly FX
* Normal ¼-inch guitar/bass input for blending and Dynamic Synth processing
* Premium effects and amps derived from the flagship GT-1000
* Large LCD and intuitive editing interface for free-flowing sound creation
* Eight freely assignable footswitches, external control support, effects loop, and configurable Main/Sub outputs
* USB Audio/MIDI and MIDI I/O, plus Guitar-to-MIDI/Bass-to-MIDI function  [bold type added by stub]
* Dedicated Guitar and Bass modes
* Customize sounds with the BOSS Tone Studio editor and download pro patches at BOSS Tone Central
* Roland GK-compatible pickup and 13-pin cable required for full access to all synth and modeling features

admin

Quote from:  Bluesbird on December 17, 2021, 12:36:31 PM
and this

"Record Tracks and Play MIDI Instruments via USB

The SY-1000's USB audio/MIDI interface opens a world of creative options with your favorite DAW. With the GK input, you're able to record each of your instrument's strings to separate audio tracks, either processed live or captured dry for later "re-synth" processing through the SY-1000. And with the Guitar-to-MIDI/Bass-to-MIDI function, you can use your axe to play soft synths, record MIDI sequences, input notation data, and more."

Bold type added by Bluesbird.

Describe your Guitar to MIDI setup ?

I find Boss units work best with USB cable to a Mac triggering mac hosted AU/VSTI soft synths

Same soft synth hosted on Windows were much higher latency

kimyo

Quote from: admin on December 17, 2021, 10:41:41 AM
If your career is in hold awaiting for a perfect guitar to MIDI System from Boss SY-1000 as firmware update soon,  sell it asap and seek other options

bluesbird invested a ton of time trying to make things better.

it would be kinder to support this effort rather than to mock it.

Quote from: admin on December 17, 2021, 10:06:53 AM
Problem is clueless newbies stumble in here. Read SY-1000 has massive guitar to MIDI  problems.
if gtm was the only issue that would be one thing.  there are other significant problems, as anyone spending more than 5 minutes reading here will discover.

chrish

Quote from: kimyo on December 17, 2021, 12:42:52 PM
bluesbird invested a ton of time trying to make things better.

it would be kinder to support this effort rather than to mock it.
if gtm was the only issue that would be one thing.  there are other significant problems, as anyone spending more than 5 minutes reading here will discover.
more like, use the tools that work for you and quit wasting time with the ones that don't.

pasha811

Quote from: chrish on December 17, 2021, 07:50:10 PM
more like, use the tools that work for you and quit wasting time with the ones that don't.

This should be called the guitarist Zen. Making music and enjoying the process should be our aim. If something gets in between you and your music should be removed from your workflow. I do not own one but I think that SY1000 is a great machine for how it processes hex guitar to a world of sounds in the box despite the P2M flaws. It's a pity because it could have been the holy grail of the hex guitar.
Listen to my music at :  http://alonetone.com/pasha/

admin

Quote from:  Bluesbird on December 17, 2021, 08:52:11 PM
It is a great unit and the only reason I dove into troubleshooting the wonky pitch to midi was to try to salvage it and to have it perform as well as other aspects of the SY-1000. As it turns out the workarounds of using chromatic 2 mode and a low velocity midi filter are very effective. I won't be selling my SY-1000. I hope if someone has poor results with the pitch to midi, they come to this forum and find this information useful.

Agreed, and thanks for all your time and revealing workarounds to tame the glitch notes of SY-1000 Guitar to MIDI.

After 13 years , we know Roland /Boss R&D monitors our forum, so your ideas are getting to the right people,   despite the apparent lack activity here-its common for corporations to place a "gag order" on all employees,  as they do not want engineering intellectual property to be discussed openly on public forums. 
Some companies encourage the direct dialog we achieve here  (Fishman, Primovasound, and for a time Antares, and Tronical all have/had employees assigned to after the sale customer support right here in our forum.

But most  M. I.  Company's  DSP developers never reveal their code secrets on public forums, - it destroys their brand as the competing companies are monitoring our discussions as well -or they fear a lawsuit, if they implement an idea 1st time/date stamped occurred here in public , they may get cold feet to implement it -its a "catch 22"

The value of VGUITARFORUMS  is the open discussions of strategies to get the most from our tools -often coaxing magic from gear deemed to be crippled, and too  flawed for professional use.

So I apologize if my "sell it and move on" comment earlier in this thread appeared as a personal insult for your excellent  efforts - we all value you sharing your experience and incite


fokof


Strange thing I found for PTM for bass with my setup :
Using a specific GK set  , but the basses I use these days are Ghost equipped , but it works better when that GK is @ "GK-3B" instead of "Piezo G"


It is also my conclusion that the PTM on my VB99 is superior.

Nobulusprime

The main issues for me is the decline in performance for PTM from previous units. And an acknowledgement that this is an issue. Roland virtually wrote the rule book on this technology but have given it much attention in recent years. Maybe they just accept that Midi Guitar and FTP are better and have given up trying....

I love the SY1000 and I'm not getting rid of it anytime soon, but the OSC synth and PTM (I don't use that with the SY1000) needs some serious attention.