SY-1000 - Guitar to MIDI with Multitimbral MIDI Synth Tone Modules

Started by admin, January 12, 2020, 09:33:18 AM

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Aph

Thanks, Elantric and aliensporebomb...
I will try all that.

My GR-55 does better with MIDI out, but still there are a few times when hitting the string hard it will send a note-off right after a note-on while the string is still vibrating. But the SY-1000 seems to do it 10 times more often.

I am not talking about latency or fast attack samples. I know about that and can compensate my playing for that. What is happening is that a note-on message is almost immediately followed by a note-off message while the string is still vibrating using clean picking techniques... and in the case of the SY-1000, it does not always have to be a hard hit on the string. These MIDI messages have been confirmed while monitoring the MIDI out with MidiOx. And this happens with the USB MIDI out also.

And I also get incorrect pitch detection like Bluesbird (I also confirmed with MidiOx)... and that has not happened with the GR-55.

My goal was to use virtual instrument apps on an iPad/iPhone. It does work, and I can live with the latency and sample idiosyncrasies, but the inconsistent note-offs are a show stopper.

Thanks.
SY-1000  v1.08
BTS for SY-1000  v1.02

Maudibe

Hi Gumtown, Admin.

Yes I stand corrected about the Deepmind - the midi functionality was not added to process each string separately. Shame 'cos the synth has the capabilities to do the job.

However, this video shows, that although you can't access the full fat individual string bends and different sounds for each string, you can get amazing analog type of results:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=102&v=2FiHMmGwEuw&feature=emb_logo

Nice... I have one in my rack and only used it with a keyboard... sometime I may have to give it a whirl :)

Aph

SY-1000  v1.08
BTS for SY-1000  v1.02

Matteo Barducci

The Roland D-05 Boutique module has "MIDI Mono Mode" to be driven by guitar synths. It's spec'd in the manual
--

---> Matteo Barducci

Shingles

I have an Emu Proteus 2000 module that I've been using as my main MIDIguitar target for over a decade. It responds fast, has oodles of sounds (especially if upgraded with extra sound ROMs) and, in spite of being a ROMpler, has a really deep synth engine.
With that and an old Korg Wavestation SR I don't find myself listing over any other or newer MIDI synth modules.
Nik
--------------------------------
Tonelab, VG99, Axon AX100, EDP, Repeater
Godin, PRS, Crafter and Roland guitars
Center Point Stereo Spacestation V3

admin

Quote from:  Bluesbird on February 12, 2020, 01:28:25 PM
The D-05 Boutique model has been reported to have high latency. Not sure this module would work well given the already high latency of Roland's pitch-to-midi conversion.

"Now, while I'm talking about things that don't bother me, I can't continue without discussing the hysteria that surrounds the D-05's latency — the length of time between pressing a key or receiving a MIDI instruction and the sound appearing at its output. I remember that, for the D-50, a figure of around 20ms was bandied around, and the forums are now heaving with indignation that the D-05 has a latency of similar duration — I've seen a figure of 15ms quoted. But 15ms is the time that it takes for sound to travel about 15 feet. So, if you were playing in a studio control room and the monitors were 15ft away from you, the latency between playing a note and hearing it would be 15ms even if everything in the audio chain responded instantaneously (which, by the way, it can't). Yet nobody complains about this. As for playing live, you might be a superhuman playing perfectly on the beat, but if your drummer were 15ft away from you, you would already be 15ms late. Does anyone notice? No, of course not. If you have an insatiable urge to line up the start of every note in your DAW, feel free to do so, but please don't claim that it will ruin the music if you don't."

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/roland-d-05

Which raises the issue that its a fact that not all hardware synths respond to MIDI Note On messages received at their MIDI Input jack , and then deliver Audio Output with equal latency times.

Back in 1990's Keyboard Magazine performed a MIDI Latency speed shootout test of several popular Keyboard Workstations   

I recall the Alesis QS6 had the lowest latency

( other references )
https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/s13428-018-1042-7
The Schultz MIDI Benchmarking Toolbox for MIDI interfaces, percussion pads, and sound cards

admin



http://www.users.on.net/~mcdds001/mmmmqac/midi_jitter.html



MLA - MIDI Latency Analyser V2
Download the Windows version
http://www.users.on.net/~mcdds001/mmmmqac/midi_timing_tools/MLA%20-%20MIDI%20Latency%20Analyser%20WINv2.1.1.zip

| Download the Mac version
http://www.users.on.net/~mcdds001/mmmmqac/midi_timing_tools/MLA%20-%20MIDI%20Latency%20Analyser%20MACv2.1.1.zip

| Show your appreciation
http://www.users.on.net/~mcdds001/mmmmqac/index.html#Appreciation

Version-2 of this software is vastly more capable than version-1. It still fulfils its original function of computing the average round-trip latency of synth audio when dubbing a MIDI'd synth to an audio track, but now it can also isolate timing problems to reveal the various causes, whether they be:

* the transmitted MIDI clock or note data,
* slow or jittery synth response, or,
* slave devices bad at synchronising to MIDI clock.


software screenshot

Using the software
Features numbered in the above screen-shot
1. This is the Show Help button. Click on this followed immediately by an on-screen control to bring up the help text for that control.

2. This button appears after MIDI bytes have been decoded from the loaded recording. Click on this to save a new wave-file containing blips that highlight the clocks, active-sensing and note data. You can then import the file into your DAW for viewing alongside the source MIDI track that produced it, and any other analysis waves you are interested in. Figures 1, 2 & 3 illustrate an example.


Figure 1 shows how to prepare the MIDI track that will provide the notes for testing your system.


Figure 2 labels the various parts of a blip-wave and includes a legend to explain the meanings of the blips.


Figure 3 details the exact positioning of the blips relative to the recorded signals.

3. Up to four histograms will appear after the loaded recording has been analysed. The Synth's Own Jitter Distribution will appear only if both MIDI note data and synth audio tracks are analysed. The numbers indicate the dividing boundary between the outlier columns and the main columns.

4. Up to four Save As Wave buttons will appear after the loaded recording has been analysed, one for each Jitter Distribution histogram and its associated milli-seconds RMS text-box. The waves reveal whether the latency variation that resulted in the RMS value and the histogram shape was a high-frequency random jitter or whether it was a cyclic drifting of tempo. When the wave is above centre the notes or clocks are rushing earlier than average, and when the wave is below centre they are dragging later than average.

5. You can choose the horizontal scale of the histograms from this pull-down menu. It has no effect on the amplitude of the jitter waves produced when the buttons labelled "4" are clicked. When set to "Normalised individually" as shown in the screenshot, the outlier boundary numbers on the histogram scales reveal the size of the worst errors.

6. When you do a round-trip analysis to determine the number of samples offset to enter into your DAW's latency compensation setting, you should record synth attacks to a mono wave-file at the same sample-rate as your music session.

7. This is the status bar, and it will occasionally show information about what the software is currently doing.

Capturing the MIDI signal
If all you want is to compensate for Synth Round-trip Latency, or to measure tempo, then you do not need to capture the MIDI signal. (You can simply record mono files of synth attacks just as you did with version-1, but now at any tempo.) However, in order to analyse extra information besides tempo and Synth Round-trip Latency, it will be necessary to record the MIDI signal's waveform as audio. A special adaptor is required to do this. Here is the schematic so that you may build the adapter.

http://www.users.on.net/~mcdds001/mmmmqac/build_the_adaptor.html


Getting started
First, it is important to understand where the MLA software fits within the scheme of things. To help illustrate this, here is a concept diagram, which essentially is a map. Your studio may not have all the physical and abstract things illustrated in the diagram, but don't worry: just as a road-map shows you places that you could visit if you chose to, this concept diagram reveals what options are available to you as you plan your "analysis journey."
http://www.users.on.net/~mcdds001/mmmmqac/mla_concept_diagrams.html


It is recommended that you record synth audio and MIDI signals at a peak level of between -1 dBFS and -5 dBFS. The best synth sound is a single oscillator high frequency square wave with fully open filter and instant attacks on filter and amplitude envelopes.

Any time that the MIDI waveform is recorded, it is vital that the recording be done at 96,000 samples per second.

The cause of latency and jitter
A computer has to share its time among many tasks such as processing its mouse and keyboard data, updating the screen, performing DSP, sending MIDI, writing audio to its hard-drive, etc. Synths and samplers also have computer processes being executed inside them. Moving between the various software processes takes a tiny bit of time, so sometimes the MIDI ports are left waiting to be emptied and filled.

Two main sources of latency

Referring to the illustration above, we cannot do much about processes at B. Unless a synth manufacturer provides a firmware update for your instrument that changes how its internal computer talks to its MIDI ports, you are stuck with whatever latency and jitter it has. The news is better concerning software processes at A, though. You can try different drivers, different interfaces, and you can disable unnecessary software that could be running in the background.

admin

Tip for achieving the lowest Latency Guitar to MIDI on Sy-1000


The SY-1000 Guitar to MIDI performance improves if all other functions ( INT BLOCKS, FX BLOCKS, Reverb, Delay, etc ) are turned off!



Alan Carl  wrote >
QuoteGuitar Midi seems to improve w EVERYTHING else turned off. ( (
Just like my GR-50!


I will take some measurements when I get a chance.

Al


BROCKSTAR

Quote from: admin on February 22, 2020, 01:13:13 PM
Tip for achieving the lowest Latency Guitar to MIDI on Sy-1000


The SY-1000 Guitar to MIDI performance improves if all other functions ( INT BLOCKS, FX BLOCKS, Reverb, Delay, etc ) are turned off!



Alan Carl  wrote >

That is cool if you just want GTM but sucks for those who wants GTM along with their patches inside sy-1000. If we have to turn everything off to get better control of the GTM then blah lol.

germanicus

Quote from: admin on February 22, 2020, 01:13:13 PM
Tip for achieving the lowest Latency Guitar to MIDI on Sy-1000


The SY-1000 Guitar to MIDI performance improves if all other functions ( INT BLOCKS, FX BLOCKS, Reverb, Delay, etc ) are turned off!



Alan Carl  wrote >

I tested this just now, with only my Godin seymour duncans going through the 13pin and unprocessed in the signal chain. Nothing turned on otherwise (besides the PTM), and it was extremely unreliable. The best Low E string trigger I got was 32msec. Some were as high as 70. Most in the 40's.

High E was 17msec.

My albums done with modeling/guitar synth at http://music.steamtheory.com

JTV69/59P/Godin LGXT/Multiac ACS/Variax 700 AC
Helix/FTP/GP10/VG99/SY1000
Traynor k4

admin

Change the Master patch setting to "Normal Input"

And use the macOS Boss SY-1000 USB 64 bit MIDI driver
2nd best use the Boss Win10 USB MIDI driver

Imerkat wrote>
Wow, I also just discovered this! I'm making a (SY-1000) patch called "TriplePlay MIDI" it also helps if the Patch Type is switch to Normal. There is also a great VST called HTM1 which blocks Pitch Bend; works like a second layer of defends.

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/30056071/


-----

And an important part of the Guitar to MIDI equation is your Computer and Audio Interface.  The Boss SY-1000 is not necessarily the fastest  /  lowest latency USB Audio interface in 2020 - so consider using a separate higher performance Audio interface.   This GearSlutz thread linked below has become a bible for low latency audio interface stats:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/1287579-lowest-latency-vsti-host-daw-app-live-soft-synth-usage.html


brk303 wrote>

16th November 2019

As has been said, VST Synth and VST Host app doesn't matter for latency. Anything using ASIO will have same latency.
What matters is the Audio interface and CPU. These days almost any CPU can handle most VSTi at typical 128 sample buffer.
If you really want lowest possible latency you need a good interface

(see Audio Interface - Low Latency Performance Data Base
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/618474-audio-interface-low-latency-performance-data-base.html


Pair one of those with good CPU and you'll be able to run 64 or even 32 samples.

Also if CPU is top notch (9700k or 9900k) you may be able to run at 88/96k or even 192k, which will reduce the AD/DA times further.

Absolutely lowest latency would be 192k at 32 samples, which I am not sure is realistically possible. It would result in sub 1ms latency

(MOTU M2 on USB-C is supposed to rule in Feb 2020)

But, even people highly sensitive to latency wouldn't have problem with 48k/64 samples, which is easily achievable and produces latency of roughly 4ms, depending on audio interface.

And, BTW, the latency figures I mention are round trip latency, from input to output, with VSTi there is no input (other than MIDI) so latency is roughly half.

EDIT:
Here are measured RTL numbers I have with my setup with RME UCX.


https://www.rme-audio.de/fireface-ucx.html
192k/192 samples = 2.975 ms (lowest possible with UCX)
96k/96 samples = 3.126 ms
48k/48 samples = 3.435 ms
48k/64 samples = 4.102 ms
48k/96 samples = 5.436 ms
48k/128 samples = 6.768 ms

Again, these are round trip, so VSTi would have roughly half.
Last edited by brk303; 16th November 2019 at 06:04 PM..

===
Optimization for lowest Audio Latency

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=12835.0

gvidelock

My live gig needs are simple, and the GR-55 is filling the slot nicely. But I did want some improvement in the Acoustic guitar department and decided to go ahead and purchase the SY-1000.

I had a Boss Dr Synth DS-330 device around that I used with my VG-88 many years ago (the VG-88 is gone but I'm glad I held onto the DS-330).

After playing with the presets I initialized most of the user space and started to put together the GR-55 sounds I use and figure out how to work in the DS-330 sounds (I had tried to program the GP-10 for sax and flute and some other synth sounds, but I went back to the GR-55 for live work). Nobody (sober) at our gigs is fooled by the GR-55 sax and I expect the same from the DS-330.

I'm not keen on adding a small mixer, so I'm feeding the DS-330 back into the Return of the SY-1000.

As far as latency goes...I'm not sure, I haven't played the rig with the band yet, but since I've been accused of playing ahead of the beat, maybe I'll be on time now  :-\

I've included some pictures at the end of the SY-1000 setups and also a Liveset file of four of the first simple patches. Two of the patches use the Normal guitar and two of them use one of the Instrument channels as an Acoustic sim (and I think I may have played with the GK Vol as a mixer for the DS-330 sound and the acoustic).

I'm not sure how this will all play out on a pedal board, but here's my experimental rig:





Here is the main patch page for one of the external sounds. CTL1 pedal switches between the Return input and the Normal pickup (in this picture the Normal pickup is off, the Send/Return symbol is lit up as green):



This picture shows the setting in "Patch MIDI" that gets sent when switching to the patch so the DS-330 goes to the "Alto Sax" (PC =  66):



This picture is the Assigns: CTL1 switches between Send/Return On/Off and Normal On/Off (or "Off/On") and CTL1 turns the Chorus On (intended for the guitar)



And this picture shows the GTM setting for my guitar and sloppy style:



Hope this helps someone with setting up an external module.

   ...Gary
-------------------------

Godin Spectrum SA
Godin Freeway SA
Fender Telecaster with Ghost and Hexpander
Fender Stratocaster with internal GK3 with Synth-Linx
Warmoth custom with internal GK3
Boss SY-1000
Roland GR-55
Roland GP-10
Katana 100W Head

admin

GK SET Input String levels impact ALL SY-1000 functions - including Guitar to MIDI

Factory default GK String Gain is 65
If you have a GK-3, Try lowering GK SET String Gain to 25-40 for all strings
This still allows full scale VU meter levels with a Pete Townsend power strum
Lowered GK String Sensitivity gain in 25-40 range with GK-3 has benefits as it Lowers adjacent string crosstalk
- the true source of DSP Alt tune warble and poor Guitar to MIDI tracking
My SY-1000 with GK-3 the 12 string and Alt tuning work very well


Remember to try GK String Sensitivity Range level of "0 " too
Level "0" does not mute the strings and is recommended String Sensitivity setting for pre 2011 Godin with RMC Piezo owners

For many there is more dynamic range to picking response with the lower String Sensitivity settings
On VG-99 you could assign 10 different GK SETTINGS and swap them per patch -on SY-1000 you must assign them to a Knob only - bummer!
Hopefully a SY-1000 firmware update will provide the VG-99 type functionality where GK Set can be assigned per each patch

( Added to SY-1000 Firmware Request

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=26925.msg203147;topicseen#msg203147

admin









Brockstar wrote>
Guitar-to-Midi with PreenFM2 hardware synth into SY-1000. I did what Steve Conrad said about lowering the string sensitivity, so I did to 40 and it helped clean my legato up better. Before I was on 70 each string and was getting more bleeps and bloops. Now it's cleaner.

gumtown

I now have my Roland Sonic Cell, but still want something with a sampler in it, and I think I may have found something used and cheap.

My gaze is currently cast upon a Roland Fantom XR (rack unit Fantom synth + sampler) which is a Firmware 2 updated unit with Sample Tools and 256mb RAM, and can also take a 1 GB CF card.

Anyone have experience with the Fantom XR ?
it is a little bit older now (2005), but the specs still seem good for me and the price good.
I will have to bring out the old Windows 7 laptop to use the USB and software, but that is not an issue.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

plexified


ZEN Core via MC 707 / MC 101 update :

I'm waiting for units to arrive locally to demo because at this point I can't find anyone that has and the below response is all that Roland has for me, despite a more detailed question. 

>

Roland Product Support (Roland Corporation)
Mar 10, 4:33 PM PDT
Hi plexified,

Yes this is possible you can use the GR-55 / SY1000 GUITAR TO MIDI to send MIDI CC NOTES to trigger the MC-707 / MC-101.

gumtown

Quote from: plexified on March 19, 2020, 09:42:38 AM
ZEN Core via MC 707 / MC 101 update :

I'm waiting for units to arrive locally to demo because at this point I can't find anyone that has and the below response is all that Roland has for me, despite a more detailed question. 

>

Roland Product Support (Roland Corporation)
Mar 10, 4:33 PM PDT
Hi plexified,

Yes this is possible you can use the GR-55 / SY1000 GUITAR TO MIDI to send MIDI CC NOTES to trigger the MC-707 / MC-101.

One thing that seems problematic with the MC-707/101 series is the lack of a midi patch function (from what I have researched),
They work with tracks and clips, giving a total of 64/128 sounds per song.
A song then has to be manually loaded from memory card.

You might want to check over that feature to see what is accessible per patch on the SY-1000.


Meanwhile I brought the Roland Fantom XR, it has way more in it than I realized,
It came with the Version 2.02 sample tools upgrade and 512Mb of sample RAM.
I loaded the drivers and software on to Windows 10 (using the unsigned driver startup mode to install).
It also does Arpeggiators, Chord memory, multi-samples (you can do a different sample per note/fret per patch), auto Rhythm (play a note get accompanyment - no use to me), and it has all the same tones as the Sonic Cell which I previously brought a few weeks ago, and can take 6 of the SRX expansion ROMS (giong to move two out of the Sonic Cell to the XR.
Free "GR-55 FloorBoard" editor software from https://sourceforge.net/projects/grfloorboard/

drjoness2001

I posted this video on gitar-to-MIDI with the SY-1000, goes through most of the parameters:


Smash


jipegonzo

hi there, just bought a old sonic cell... newbie with guitar to midi and no sound :o( all is on channel 1.. Id is 17.. no sound
could you help me :)
thank you by advance
jp


jipegonzo

another question by a newbie midi (me !) :
i've saved few patches (mine) in "user patch" (in sonic cell), but when i want to change a patch from SY-1000 (with gk button for example), impossible to have an access to my user patch (sonic cell)... it directly on a 3GM" patch... did i miss something ?  thank by advance for your lights :)
jp

Brak(E)man

swimming with a hole in my body

I play Country music too, I'm just not sure which country it's from...

"The only thing worse than a guitar is a guitarist!"
- Lydia Lunch


jipegonzo

channel is good (1) Id too (32 in both)... midi message is received but...it changes only GM sound (on sonic cell)