Katana Line Out Level for Recording

Started by Petros_k, January 08, 2019, 01:17:46 PM

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Petros_k

Has anyone noticed that when using the Line Out for recording you need to really trim the level up (in my case something like 18db in order to get a proper signal)?

Master volume does nothing for Line Out level (as should be the case). But with channel volume full up and gain at about 12 o'clock the Line out level is still weak. If you increase the channel gain the Line out level will also increase, but then that changes the clean guitar quality.

I looked in BTS software but there's no options for Line Out except "Line Out Feel" and "Cabinet Resonance."

rolandvg99

Line Out should NOT follow master as that is a possible performance killer using it live, as you can't adjust the master during a live performance without altering the PA/Monitor gain structure. That means: When you alter your stage volume, you also adjust what's going to everyones monitor system, which can lead to insane volume bumps or drops. The Recording out is what you should use at home, as it carries the same signal. I do however agree there should be a switchable option for controlling how the Line Out and Recording Out reacts to user input.
To V or not to V: That is the question.

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Petros_k

#2
Quote from: rolandvg99 on January 08, 2019, 10:18:03 PM
Line Out should NOT follow master as that is a possible performance killer using it live, as you can't adjust the master during a live performance without altering the PA/Monitor gain structure. That means: When you alter your stage volume, you also adjust what's going to everyones monitor system, which can lead to insane volume bumps or drops. The Recording out is what you should use at home, as it carries the same signal. I do however agree there should be a switchable option for controlling how the Line Out and Recording Out reacts to user input.

As I said, the master volume on the Katana does not affect the Line Out level, and that's the way it should be. However, even when you put the channel volume full up and the gain about half way up the Line Out level is so weak, at least in my case, that I have to insert a trim pot into my mixer software and add almost 18 db just to get a proper recording level with peaks just below - 6 dbfs. If you put the gain full up, you get a better recording level but the guitar tone is no longer clean, as would be expected. The question is if I'm connecting the amp Line Out to my audio interface Line In why is the signal so weak unless you raise both the channel volume and the gain on the amp full up?

If the Record Out on the Katana is after the master volume, that might solve the problem, but it might also introduce noise and hiss. I have not tried this yet because...well...because there should be no reason the Line Out doesn't work properly when connected to the Line In of a mixer or audio interface.

The Line Out should be used to send a direct signal to a mixer for live performances. In live performances using the Record Out/ Headphone output on the Katana would be impossible because it cuts out the speaker.

However, I will test the Record Out to see if the level is better than the Line Out. They should both be a line level signal.

admin

#3
This discussion is meaningless without knowing the specific  Katana model

For clarity


The Katana 50 REC  OUT



is VERY different / not as flexible as the LINE OUT found only on Katana 100 / Artist


rolandvg99

Peaks at -6 db is more than ok if you use a 24-bit soundcard with good converters. On a budget soundcard you might get excessive noise and crackling if you push the preamps.
To V or not to V: That is the question.

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Pidgin English

Quote from: admin on January 09, 2019, 07:42:00 AM
This discussion is meaningless without knowing the specific  Katana model

For clarity


The Katana 50 REC  OUT



is VERY different / not as flexible as the LINE OUT found only on Katana 100 / Artist

Can the 50 watt record out also be used as a line out?  There are times when miking the amp isn't feasible for where we play. 

gumtown

I will take a guess here on the KAt 100 Line Out, and say it runs at "instrument Level" rather than "Line Level",
thus the need for 18dB gain in your "Line Input" recorder.

From the User Manual, there are no specifications on the "Line Out" output levels anywhere in the documentation.

LINE OUT jack 100/HEAD/Artist only Connect this to your PA system or recorder. You can obtain powerful guitar amp sound just as if you were playing through the speaker. Recorder, etc.
You can use this in conjunction with an external PA system, or to record your performance via direct line while monitoring the sound from the KATANA's speaker. Adjust the output level using the [VOLUME] knob. Since the [MASTER] knob does not affect the output, you can turn down the [MASTER] knob so that sound is output to a connected device without any sound being produced from the amp itself. * To prevent malfunction and equipment failure, always turn down the volume, and turn off all the units before making any connections.

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gumtown

Quote from: Pidgin English on January 09, 2019, 01:00:32 PM
Can the 50 watt record out also be used as a line out?  There are times when miking the amp isn't feasible for where we play.
It sure can, but....
inserting a plug in the Phones/Rec out will mute the speaker.
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Petros_k

Quote from: admin on January 09, 2019, 07:42:00 AM
This discussion is meaningless without knowing the specific  Katana model



Sorry. It's the Katana 100 combo.

Pidgin English

Quote from: gumtown on January 09, 2019, 01:05:26 PM
It sure can, but....
inserting a plug in the Phones/Rec out will mute the speaker.

Thank you for the info Gum.

Yeah, that's a bummer the speaker is muted.  But when the band has to play direct, we use in-ear-monitors so I'll at least be able to hear myself okay.

Petros_k

#10
Quote from: rolandvg99 on January 08, 2019, 10:18:03 PM
...The Recording out is what you should use at home...
Quote from: Petros_k on January 09, 2019, 06:41:16 AM

...I will test the Record Out to see if the level is better than the Line Out. They should both be a line level signal.

Yes. Looks like when you use the Record out instead of Line out you get plenty of signal with no need to trim up because in addition to increasing channel volume and gain you can also increase the Master volume. However, because this then mutes the amp speaker you need to rely on headphones or speakers connected to your mixer or computer for monitoring. That's certainly feasible for home recording, but live situations where you need the amp speaker it's a no go and the Line out is all you got.

I did not notice any significant noise increase on meters in my DAW when using the Line out vs Record out (-84 dbfs vs -77 dbfs). Tone sounds about the same, and I think both the Record out and the Line out use the "line out air feel" and "cabinet resonance" you find in Boss Tone Studio. BTS manual says, "Specifies the sound of the LINE OUT/PHONES/USB Post Out."

Petros_k

#11
In trying to find out more info, I emailed Roland tech support with this:

1. For recording, my computer interface (Emu 1616m) has a line input, switchable between +4 dBu and -10 dBv. I assume the Line Out on the Katana is an unbalanced connection, so I set the interface line in to -10 dBv. The Line Out on the Katana is before the master in the signal chain, so master volume settings don't affect the level. What I noticed is with the Katana channel volume full up and the gain at about 12 o'clock, the Line Out level is very weak. I use this setting for a clean guitar sound. If you increase the gain the signal improves, but the guitar tone is no longer clean. The only solution I know to record this way is to insert a trim pot into the software mixer of my interface, but I have to trim the signal up about 18 dBfs in order to get a proper level. My question here is this: Are there any specs available for the Line Out? The level is so low someone at a forum suggested to me that it may not be a "line level" output but may actually be an "instrument level" output, which is a weaker signal. That didn't make sense to me because I know the Line Out on the Katana is after the preamp stage.

2. It was recommended to me to use the Record / Headphone Out on the Katana instead of the Line Out so that I don't need to trim up the signal. This mutes the speaker, which means I can only monitor thru my computer, but it puts the master volume into the signal chain, which then allows me to get the signal level much higher. My question is this: If this is a TRS connection that allows for stereo headphones, should I be using a TRS connector also if recording? Or, is it the case given this is an unbalanced connection a cable with a TS connector will provide the same results?


And their response:
"Will try to best answer your KATANA-100 questions below:
1. The KATANA LINE OUT is a LINE LEVEL signal and is connected to the AMPLIFIER VOLUME knob.
Changing the VOLUME KNOB for the CHANNEL may affect the output of the LINE LEVEL while the MASTER and POWER CONTROL remain separate for internal speaker monitor level.
You may also want use the KATANA USB AUDIO connection for recording directly to DAW.

2. Using the RECORD/HEADPHONES OUTPUT is also an option for silent recording that mutes out internal speaker and is really just a DUAL MONO STEREO OUTPUT so the TRS output is not a balanced signal."

That's all they had to say.

admin

#12
Quote1. For recording, my computer interface (Emu 1616m) has a line input, switchable between +4 dBu and -10 dBv.



I would start by using a 1/4" TS cable from the Katana Line output to feed the front "A" Combo XLR /TRS input which has an adjustable INPUT  GAIN KNOB 


http://ccftp.creative.com/manualdn/Manuals/TSD/11600/0x420B0548/1616_Op_1.8_(EN).pdf
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/emu-1616m




Myself when recording,  i use the Katana USB connection to the computer  - and to monitor i use headphones connected to the Katana's headphone jack

I set the Katana USB Audio I/O levels in Boss Tone Studio

Petros_k

#13
Didn't think of trying front panel mic/instrument input because it adds the preamp, which shouldn't be necessary, and potentially adds distortion. However, I see now the manual says on the front panel these two inputs are also intended for "line level" inputs, so thanks for pointing that out.

Rear panel also contains additional line level inputs:



And that's what I used (set to -10 dBv). I then trimmed up the signal from the Katana Line Out.

admin

Not all Line level gear is equal gain & sensitivity -

You could use a gain vsti effect in the DAW and apply a +3db, +6dB gain correction on the whole Katana track,  post recording.

gumtown

If recording into a DAW,
I don't worry about the recorded levels until after I have 'Normalized' the tracks first.
I would rather the initial recorded levels a bit too low, rather than too high and clipping.
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Petros_k

#16
Quote from: admin on January 13, 2019, 01:29:04 PM
Not all Line level gear is equal gain & sensitivity -

You could use a gain vsti effect in the DAW and apply a +3db, +6dB gain correction on the whole Katana track,  post recording.

That's not the same as inserting a trim pot or using an input that has its own gain control. Using a gain plug-in after the recording is made raises the level of everything recorded, including noise, which could be a problem in some cases. The same applies to normalizing tracks.

Petros_k

#17
Today I was recording with the Katana Line Out to the 1616m front panel mic/instrument/line inputs, and this input has a dedicated gain control. You get similar results with no obvious differences compared to the other possible ways of getting the signal into a DAW direct out of the amp. It's always troubled me to think there should be one proper way to record direct out of the Katana to get the best results, but for me I have all the following ways:

1. Katana Line Out to rear panel Line Level Input of my interface (set to -10dBv). This requires inserting a trim pot into the Emu virtual mixer because the signal from the amp (when set for a clean guitar tone) is too weak for proper recording levels. This method allows live monitoring thru the amp speaker, or you can turn down the Katana Master volume to monitor only thru headphones connected to your interface or mixer because the Katana Master volume does not affect the Line Out signal level.

2. Katana Record Out to rear panel Line Level Input of my interface (set to -10 dBv). This does not require a trim pot to boost signal because it puts the Master volume of the Katana into the signal chain, which provides plenty of additional signal for proper recording levels. This method mutes the amp speaker, so monitoring is only possible thru headphones or monitor speakers connected to the audio interface.

3. Katana Line Out to front panel input that has a dedicated gain. The gain knob for the input up about 50% provides enough gain for proper recording levels. This setup allows you to hear the live output from the speaker amp, or if you want to only monitor thru headphones connected to an audio interface or mixer you can simply turn the Katana Master volume down because it has no effect on the Line Out signal level.

--I hear no difference in the sound quality no matter which method I use, given peaks occur around -9 dBFS when recording.

The manual for Boss Tone Studio says the "Line Out Air Feel" works thru all three: Line Out, Record/Phones Out, and USB out. Looks like that goes for the "cabinet resonance" too.

I wish there was some other way to determine which way is best to record, but I'm guessing option 3 above would be the most flexible (and I hear no additional noise when going in thru the front panel preamps). Option 1 is probably just as good.

Somewhat off-topic, and relevant only for people using the Emu 1616m (which was discontinued) is what they mean when they say "The line-level inputs (rear panel connections) are all servo-balanced, enabling then to convert unbalanced signals to balanced signals internally to reduce noise" (See the manual image I posted above).

admin

#18
Read about "LINE LEVEL" - its different levels depending on if the gear is consumer "LINE LEVEL" or Pro "LINE LEVEL"  - and most gear falls in between   - thus the need for level adjustment under most situations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level



QuoteSomewhat off-topic, and relevant only for people using the Emu 1616m (which was discontinued) is what they mean when they say "The line-level inputs (rear panel connections) are all servo-balanced, enabling then to convert unbalanced signals to balanced signals internally to reduce noise" (See the manual image I posted above).
Servo Balanced Inputs

QuoteOne benefit of the α24 topology is that you could connect either input to ground and drive the other input from an unbalanced source, and yet the balanced output will provide a fully-differential signal.
https://www.amb.org/forum/alpha24-project-introduction-and-development-t2662.html
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/servo-balanced/
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/balanced/

Balanced vs unbalanced
https://www.prosoundweb.com/topics/audio/connecting_unbalanced_outputs_to_balanced_inputs_and_vice_versa/3/
https://mikeriversaudio.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/balanced-unbalanced_revised.pdf

Petros_k

#19
Quote from: admin on January 15, 2019, 02:11:57 PM
Read about "LINE LEVEL" - its different levels depending on if the gear is consumer "LINE LEVEL" or Pro "LINE LEVEL"  - and most gear falls in between   - thus the need for level adjustment under most situations


--And we don't have specs for the Katana Line Out from Roland Tech Support, even after I specifically asked for them. I tried to contact Tech Support again, but all they said was:

QuoteUnfortunately we don't have documentation or specs provided by Roland BOSS Japan for the LINE OUT or RECORD OUT impedance rating and are unable to provide you this information.

So, based on info in this thread it's probably safe to assume the Katana Line Out is in the neighborhood of -10 dBV (consumer) ?


Alathea_Squared

Just in case anyone was wondering, I got Roland to confirm that both Rec out and Line out were Line level.

   
Roland Product Support (Roland Corporation)

Sep 9, 4:40 PM PDT

Hi Cedric,
Both the RECORD/PHONES and LINE OUT are line level signal.
Kind regards,

Roland Product Support
"'Cause no matter where you go, there you are."

Petros_k

#22
Quote from: Alathea_Squared on September 09, 2019, 06:00:28 PM
Just in case anyone was wondering, I got Roland to confirm that both Rec out and Line out were Line level.

Great. Now ask them to define "line level." Are they BOTH the same? Are they -10dBV ? 0dBV? +4dBu?

I still think they are both plain old unbalanced -10dBV, but the advantages of using Record/Phones out are:

1) Muting the output through the amp speaker
2) Being able to use the speaker simulator available in BTS
3) No need to trim up the signal because Master Volume gets you plenty of level.

MoteTotoro

Quote from: Petros_k on January 15, 2019, 01:44:19 PM

1. Katana Line Out to rear panel Line Level Input of my interface (set to -10dBv).

2. Katana Record Out to rear panel Line Level Input of my interface (set to -10 dBv).

3. Katana Line Out to front panel input that has a dedicated gain.

Thanks for this valuable and complete summary. May I ask you what kind of cable(s) would be recommended for every of these recording options? I guess TS cable (mono) for line out, but was wondering if a TRS cable from Rec/Phones out would get me a stereo signal to my audio interface? Thanks to anyone who can give me some tips on this.

admin

Quote from: MoteTotoro on April 12, 2022, 10:35:29 AM
Thanks for this valuable and complete summary. May I ask you what kind of cable(s) would be recommended for every of these recording options? I guess TS cable (mono) for line out, but was wondering if a TRS cable from Rec/Phones out would get me a stereo signal to my audio interface? Thanks to anyone who can give me some tips on this.

Katana is not capable of stereo audio from Rec /Phones output

Connect TRS headphones results in dual Mono feed to headphones